EZY emergency @ BRS
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Nothing major but the company because of lack of maintenance in BGI want me to return to LGW. I tell ATC we want to return, and when asked the reason I mention that we have had a partial hydraulic failure. When I land at LGW I am amazed to find that half of the south east emergency services have comes to watch my regular carrier landing. Why? A sys 2 hydraulic failure is a complete non-event.
It seems to be what most pilots want for minor technical snags, so why give too much information which forces ATC's hand ??
Pprune Radar,
Please re-read my post. If I am asked why I am returning, do I say its none of your business. That is not how I want the relationship between me and ATC to be. My post shows a regular situation where an innocent question and innocent answer leads to a full emergency. That is where I believe the judgement of a commander has to be respected. This thread suggests to me that there is conflicting information/rules regarding emergencies that should be tightened up so everybody understands the situation.
Please re-read my post. If I am asked why I am returning, do I say its none of your business. That is not how I want the relationship between me and ATC to be. My post shows a regular situation where an innocent question and innocent answer leads to a full emergency. That is where I believe the judgement of a commander has to be respected. This thread suggests to me that there is conflicting information/rules regarding emergencies that should be tightened up so everybody understands the situation.
Last edited by Right Way Up; 19th Feb 2005 at 23:48.
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If you say it is due to company reasons, then the underlying cause is actually none of my business. It could be for any reason at all and since it does not affect the operation of the aircraft nor imply you need any priority, then that's all I need to know. You will be handled as any other aircraft.
You, as Captain, have made a judgement call, and decided that is the case. And you are the one in the position to make that call. 'Company reasons' is a perfectly acceptable term and known by ATC. It won't ellicit any further interrogation and it won't set any hares running.
The problem comes when you pass ATC information (innocent as it may be) which is actually a trigger for us to do something. Being told about a hydraulic failure will, as has been stated, result in some action being taken to instigate a Local Standby. That's because the procedures to do so have been agreed as the appropriate course of action between ATC, the airport authorities, the emergency services, aircraft operators, and the CAA. Rightly or wrongly, it's what the 'industry' has demanded as the level of service to be provided.
I guess what pilots need to ask themselves is whether the situation will affect the operation of their aircraft in any non standard way. If it will not and it will behave exactly as it would on any other flight then what is the reason for telling ATC at all ?? Our ethos is very much one of relating information passed to a need to do something with that information and take appropriate actions. This is reinforced by a long history of pilots only telling a little bit of the story and things then being a lot more critical than first expected. So it is natural that we will tend to go overboard if we are told something is wrong, even if it is in no way detrimental to the safe operation of the flight (something we may or may not know the answer to anyway).
What it really boils down to is telling ATC about things which are going to cause problems, in good time and with a full description of what the effects are going to be as far as your situation allows. And not telling us about things which have no effect whatsover and which you require no special treatment for. The latter is just superfluous, clogging up the RT as well as starting actions on the ground for which pilots don't seem to be grateful and believe are unecessary
You, as Captain, have made a judgement call, and decided that is the case. And you are the one in the position to make that call. 'Company reasons' is a perfectly acceptable term and known by ATC. It won't ellicit any further interrogation and it won't set any hares running.
The problem comes when you pass ATC information (innocent as it may be) which is actually a trigger for us to do something. Being told about a hydraulic failure will, as has been stated, result in some action being taken to instigate a Local Standby. That's because the procedures to do so have been agreed as the appropriate course of action between ATC, the airport authorities, the emergency services, aircraft operators, and the CAA. Rightly or wrongly, it's what the 'industry' has demanded as the level of service to be provided.
I guess what pilots need to ask themselves is whether the situation will affect the operation of their aircraft in any non standard way. If it will not and it will behave exactly as it would on any other flight then what is the reason for telling ATC at all ?? Our ethos is very much one of relating information passed to a need to do something with that information and take appropriate actions. This is reinforced by a long history of pilots only telling a little bit of the story and things then being a lot more critical than first expected. So it is natural that we will tend to go overboard if we are told something is wrong, even if it is in no way detrimental to the safe operation of the flight (something we may or may not know the answer to anyway).
What it really boils down to is telling ATC about things which are going to cause problems, in good time and with a full description of what the effects are going to be as far as your situation allows. And not telling us about things which have no effect whatsover and which you require no special treatment for. The latter is just superfluous, clogging up the RT as well as starting actions on the ground for which pilots don't seem to be grateful and believe are unecessary
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ANTIGUA, How can you be 100% certain that nothing will go wrong? better to be safe than sorry. i for one know that I'd rather have them there than not, Just incase things go tits up at last minute. Hope i'm never on a flight with you and have a situation develop and you think it best not to have the services there. At the end of the day, they are only doing their job.
Pprune Radar,
I certainly can understand the problem of people covering up serious problems. One would hope that the authorities deal with these companies harshly, but I won't hold my breath. I still believe the system could be tweaked so that pilots and ATC are playing off the same songsheet. It shows a good reason for more ATC visits and jumpseat rides. (do they still allow that?)
I certainly can understand the problem of people covering up serious problems. One would hope that the authorities deal with these companies harshly, but I won't hold my breath. I still believe the system could be tweaked so that pilots and ATC are playing off the same songsheet. It shows a good reason for more ATC visits and jumpseat rides. (do they still allow that?)
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ANTIGUA, How can you be 100% ..... Hope i'm never on a flight with you and have a situation develop and you think it best not to have the services there.
They are there ... all the time ... !
Pprune Radar's solution seems sensible, but doesn't cover a lot of the cases. My company has now issued guidance. Paraphrasing, it says 'if you don't want an innappropriate response in terms of 'blue light' content, be careful of the words you use to ATC'.
As long as we all know what to expect that is fair enough, but I forsee a siuation arising where, indeed, an innocent looking situation does escalate a bit and the first question the Capt gets asked by a suit behind a desk, with arched eyebrow, is 'When did you first notice you had a problem Capt, and why did you not inform ATC at the time?'
I got a lot of flak a few years back for asking for a bit of extra spacing on finals at LHR when I wasn't exactly fat on fuel.
Am I alone in thinking this is similar? The system allows no room for any subtlety with ATC.
A bit short of fuel ... declare a PAN or take 2.5 miles.
A slight technical problem ... stay stumm or expect a sea of blue lights.
Ah well, plus ca change.
Antigua
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Antigua while I sense a little tongue in cheek about a fuel situation, I have had drives use those very words when asking for a little more room form the one ahead. No drama there.
They system does allow for subtlely, but inheritant of the world today, it must also have a major component of tin plating.
They system does allow for subtlely, but inheritant of the world today, it must also have a major component of tin plating.
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Right way up
ATC are in no way second guessing pilots. We follow emergency orders laid down by the aerodrome authority who in turn are directed by the CAA.
If you declare any problem with a hydraulic system, our book says we must initiate full emergency action, we simply do not have a choice.
I and my colleagues know very little about your hydraulic systems, the CAA know this and therefore do the second guessing on our behalf
A sys 2 hydraulic failure is a complete non-event. Why am I being second guessed by somebody on the ground who has as much idea about hydraulic systems as I have about the wiggly amps being thrown about in a ground radar system
If you declare any problem with a hydraulic system, our book says we must initiate full emergency action, we simply do not have a choice.
I and my colleagues know very little about your hydraulic systems, the CAA know this and therefore do the second guessing on our behalf
Yellow Snow,
Reading your post I realise my post did not reflect my direction of thought. (Would not be the first time!) I do not believe that ATC second-guess us just because they feel like but that they do because the authorities require them to. As you say any communication from us that mentions hydraulic failure will lead to a full emergency, which has to satisfy the regulations. This is what I feel should be addressed to be made more practical.
Reading your post I realise my post did not reflect my direction of thought. (Would not be the first time!) I do not believe that ATC second-guess us just because they feel like but that they do because the authorities require them to. As you say any communication from us that mentions hydraulic failure will lead to a full emergency, which has to satisfy the regulations. This is what I feel should be addressed to be made more practical.
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I believe the difference between full emergency and aircraft incident plus the 15 other emergency catagories we have at BRS is the way they are dealt with.
A full emergency in NCL for example maybe called an aircraft incident at Sou. The important thing is that the staff on shift Know what they expecting when they hear the term.
A full emergency in NCL for example maybe called an aircraft incident at Sou. The important thing is that the staff on shift Know what they expecting when they hear the term.
I forsee a situation arising where, indeed, an innocent looking situation does escalate a bit and the first question the Capt gets asked by a suit behind a desk, with arched eyebrow, is 'When did you first notice you had a problem Capt, and why did you not inform ATC at the time?'
And the other side of the coin:
I forsee a situation arising where, indeed, an innocent looking situation does escalate a bit and the first question the ATCO gets asked by a suit behind a desk, with arched eyebrow, is 'When did you first suspect the pilot had a problem, and why did you not inform the RFFS at the time?'
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What fails in a hydraulic failure?
There are several reasons why a single hydraulic system may fail - one of which is a hydraulic leak.
Hydraulic fluid on the RW or TWY is very slippery and ATC should know about it so they can run a check. Returning for "company reasons" may be an elegant way to avoid unnecessary emergency service deployment but may also cause something to be missed.
FC
Hydraulic fluid on the RW or TWY is very slippery and ATC should know about it so they can run a check. Returning for "company reasons" may be an elegant way to avoid unnecessary emergency service deployment but may also cause something to be missed.
FC
Full Emergency
I was reading and stumbled across this....
For those who fly in Australia... if u look up the AIP's in Gen 3.6-6
Paragraph 6.3, it says
Full Emergency:
A full emergency is declared when activation of more than just airport-based responding agencies is advisable. A full emergency will be declared when an aircraft approaching the airport is known or suspected to be in such trouble that there is danger of an accident.........
If u read paragraph 5 before,
it goes on to explaining stuff like Uncertainty Phases, Alert Phases, and Distress Phases and all that stuff......anyways, if u guys really still are that uncertain about the phrases and ways to alert ATC of an emergency, stick to the Pan and Mayday, give as much info on your situation as possible, fly your aircraft, and let the ground staff take care of the rest =)P
For those who fly in Australia... if u look up the AIP's in Gen 3.6-6
Paragraph 6.3, it says
Full Emergency:
A full emergency is declared when activation of more than just airport-based responding agencies is advisable. A full emergency will be declared when an aircraft approaching the airport is known or suspected to be in such trouble that there is danger of an accident.........
If u read paragraph 5 before,
it goes on to explaining stuff like Uncertainty Phases, Alert Phases, and Distress Phases and all that stuff......anyways, if u guys really still are that uncertain about the phrases and ways to alert ATC of an emergency, stick to the Pan and Mayday, give as much info on your situation as possible, fly your aircraft, and let the ground staff take care of the rest =)P
