EZY emergency @ BRS
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Where's BJCC when he's needed?
Met Police Aircraft Incident categories
C.4 Aircraft Incident Categories
C.4.1 In order for the emergency services and aerodrome authorities to understand the nature
of an emergency they have been defined using the following categories for use during
a prescribed incident. Slight local variations between aerodromes may exist though the
broad outline of the definition remains the same. Air Traffic Control (ATC) will usually
make the initial decision on the category of emergency. Subject to threat assessment
by the police and aerodrome authority there may be occasions when a response to
a bomb warning is required to an aircraft either in the air, on the ground or on the
aerodrome premises.
Full Emergency
C.4.2 When ATC know or suspect that an aircraft in flight is known or suspected to be in
difficulties which, if aggravated could result in an accident.
Aircraft Ground Incident
C.4.3 When ATC becomes aware of or suspects that an aircraft on the ground is involved in
an incident of a lesser nature than an aircraft accident. The incident may have caused
aircraft damage, have the potential to result in aircraft damage or put the passengers
and crew at risk.
Aircraft Accident Imminent
C.4.4 When ATC considers an aircraft accident is inevitable, either on or in the vicinity of
the airport.
Aircraft Accident
C.4.5 When ATC becomes aware that an aircraft accident has occurred on the airport or within
the airport boundary.
Aircraft Accident off Airport
C.4.6 When ATC becomes aware that an aircraft accident has occurred beyond the
airfield boundary.
Full Emergency Hijack
C.4.7 Where ATC become aware that a person on an aircraft who, by the use of force or threat of
any kind, intends to seize the aircraft or exercises control of it.
Act of aggression
C.4.8 An act of terrorism, armed attack, bomb attack, hostage situation (other than Hijack on an
aircraft) or other similar acts of terrorism is taking or has taken place on or adjacent to the
aerodrome boundary.
Met Police Aircraft Incident categories
C.4 Aircraft Incident Categories
C.4.1 In order for the emergency services and aerodrome authorities to understand the nature
of an emergency they have been defined using the following categories for use during
a prescribed incident. Slight local variations between aerodromes may exist though the
broad outline of the definition remains the same. Air Traffic Control (ATC) will usually
make the initial decision on the category of emergency. Subject to threat assessment
by the police and aerodrome authority there may be occasions when a response to
a bomb warning is required to an aircraft either in the air, on the ground or on the
aerodrome premises.
Full Emergency
C.4.2 When ATC know or suspect that an aircraft in flight is known or suspected to be in
difficulties which, if aggravated could result in an accident.
Aircraft Ground Incident
C.4.3 When ATC becomes aware of or suspects that an aircraft on the ground is involved in
an incident of a lesser nature than an aircraft accident. The incident may have caused
aircraft damage, have the potential to result in aircraft damage or put the passengers
and crew at risk.
Aircraft Accident Imminent
C.4.4 When ATC considers an aircraft accident is inevitable, either on or in the vicinity of
the airport.
Aircraft Accident
C.4.5 When ATC becomes aware that an aircraft accident has occurred on the airport or within
the airport boundary.
Aircraft Accident off Airport
C.4.6 When ATC becomes aware that an aircraft accident has occurred beyond the
airfield boundary.
Full Emergency Hijack
C.4.7 Where ATC become aware that a person on an aircraft who, by the use of force or threat of
any kind, intends to seize the aircraft or exercises control of it.
Act of aggression
C.4.8 An act of terrorism, armed attack, bomb attack, hostage situation (other than Hijack on an
aircraft) or other similar acts of terrorism is taking or has taken place on or adjacent to the
aerodrome boundary.
Join Date: May 2002
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we had left a bit of one of the (18) tyres on the runway in Delhi
I'm staying STUMM next time to spare my passenger's heartbeats.
Are you 100% certain that the burst tyre hasn't caused any additional problems?!? Tell you what, IF you stay "stumm" and subsequently you end up in serious trouble, we've got no AFS turnout, see how many of your passengers have still got a heartbeat for you to spare!!
I would much rather overreact 999 times out of a thousand if on that 1000th time the fire services managed to save more lives compared to the number saved if only a local standby or even no emergency is put on, regardless of how bad it makes the "company" look!!!
I can't believe professional pilots would rather worry about the image of the company and not scaring the pax, than making 100% certain that they're going to be ok when they land!!
I know we don't have the full picture and some of the incidents seem trivial, but no-one (not even you pilots) can be 100% certain that everything will be ok on landing, until you touch down, so we err on the side of caution. Fingers crossed you'll never need it, but on the day you do, you'll be bloody glad I chose to put on a full emergency and not a local standby, so you have a much larger emergency service turnout!!
FB
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I would much rather overreact 999 times out of a thousand if on that 1000th time the fire services managed to save more lives compared to the number saved if only a local standby or even no emergency is put on, regardless of how bad it makes the "company" look!!!
It's the 'I' bit in the above I quarrel with. I'm the a/c Captain. The safety of the a/c is my responsibility alone. It's strapped to my a*se, not to your control tower. I was there when the problem occurred, and I had managed it and planned my arrival for nearly 9 hours. Exactly when did my responsibility pass to you? I specifically did not ask to declare an emergency ... how come you would know better?
If this sounds grudging, it's not meant to be. I know the help and assistance I will get in the UK is the best in the world. I have only to ask for it. If I have any doubt I will.
Have you ever had your mother-in-law telling you how you should have painted your sitting room when you're 95% of the way through it?
'Think on' ... as they say in the People's Republic of Yorkshire ...
Well .... I've found my tin hat.
Antigua
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Interesting, this one.
Heathrow's (and I bet every other unit's) Manual of Air Traffic Services says that a 'Full Emergency' will be declared for any sort of hydraulic failure, be it full or partial.
What people who might complain about over-reaction should bear in mind is that these categories of emergencies, which every ATCO has to know off by heart, might be very conservative for a Boeing/Airbus with multiple hydraulic systems continually montired by three computers with more redundancy than a Yorkshire coal mine in the 1980s, but which are also designed for a thiry year old clapped out Piper Seneca.
1) Blue hydraulic system. 1 of 3. Built in redundancy.
What people who might complain about over-reaction should bear in mind is that these categories of emergencies, which every ATCO has to know off by heart, might be very conservative for a Boeing/Airbus with multiple hydraulic systems continually montired by three computers with more redundancy than a Yorkshire coal mine in the 1980s, but which are also designed for a thiry year old clapped out Piper Seneca.
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Interesting indeed, Gonzo!
The Airbus QRH (what used to be called the 'Emergency Checklist') has NO proceedure for any single (of 3) hydraulic system failure. It's a non-event.
The Frogbus merely 'informs' you that you have lost one, and which bits of the a/c might not be working, if any.
So how do we square this with 'institutionalised' panic on the ground?
Antigua
The Airbus QRH (what used to be called the 'Emergency Checklist') has NO proceedure for any single (of 3) hydraulic system failure. It's a non-event.
The Frogbus merely 'informs' you that you have lost one, and which bits of the a/c might not be working, if any.
So how do we square this with 'institutionalised' panic on the ground?
Antigua
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It's the 'I' bit in the above I quarrel with. I'm the a/c Captain. The safety of the a/c is my responsibility alone. It's strapped to my a*se, not to your control tower.
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Cahlibahn
Here now thank you....
All very interesting stuff. No us ground bound types don't have the plane strapped to our backsides, but then we are the ones who have to tidy up the mess in the unlikley event it all goes wrong.
Heathrow is fortunate in that there are lots of Red/White/Green emergency vehicles and people who work there, and therefore should it all go bent there is the capacity to get it all going.
Bristol and other regional airports have the fire cover there yes, but no ambulance or police stationed there, and they have therefore, along with the local authority fire service, to be imported.
That takes time, and reduces the fire/police and ambulance cover to the areas surrounding the airport.
The idea of having levels of call (eg full emergency, LSB etc) help to grade a response for those of us who have no idea what the B737 owners manual says about stopping distance in the event of hydraulic fail.
Surely it is better to have the big gang there and then stand down than to have nothing there and try and get reinforcements after the event when the local traffic has come to a complete stop.
Here now thank you....
All very interesting stuff. No us ground bound types don't have the plane strapped to our backsides, but then we are the ones who have to tidy up the mess in the unlikley event it all goes wrong.
Heathrow is fortunate in that there are lots of Red/White/Green emergency vehicles and people who work there, and therefore should it all go bent there is the capacity to get it all going.
Bristol and other regional airports have the fire cover there yes, but no ambulance or police stationed there, and they have therefore, along with the local authority fire service, to be imported.
That takes time, and reduces the fire/police and ambulance cover to the areas surrounding the airport.
The idea of having levels of call (eg full emergency, LSB etc) help to grade a response for those of us who have no idea what the B737 owners manual says about stopping distance in the event of hydraulic fail.
Surely it is better to have the big gang there and then stand down than to have nothing there and try and get reinforcements after the event when the local traffic has come to a complete stop.
Ohcirrej
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Just to further from Rodan, we do have to tin plate out @sses as much as you guys. I've read many an accident/incident transcript where the old "sh*t" paperbag with a hole in it has been swung above everybody's head who was involved, and it has stuck far and wide.
You also have to be cognisant of the fact that (as was mentioned here ) there may be carriers who don't understand "Pan-Pan" or are very reluctant to reveal the full extent of a situation. It's a level playing field to play from, and isn't done simply for fun.
You also have to be cognisant of the fact that (as was mentioned here ) there may be carriers who don't understand "Pan-Pan" or are very reluctant to reveal the full extent of a situation. It's a level playing field to play from, and isn't done simply for fun.
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Antigua Quote:
Because it says so in our book, and purely for info, I informed ATC on arrival in the UK and requested no further action. This was at about 04.30. First they tried to persuade me to go to an airport 'with more than one runway', then they declared a full emergency (my words) without telling me. The sort that has fire engines hammering up the A23 from Brighton.
In your book it tells you to tell us, and in our book it says possible big problem, we will put on a full emergency. If you tell us, but then say disregard it, you have done your bit, your backside is covered, but we have to ignore it i.e. not cover ours. Bit unfair to then whinge about it. If you're not bothered don't tell us. If you do, expect us to take whatever action is in the book, commensurate with the problem.
Either way tell us and live with the subsequent action, you may be glad one day!!!!
Because it says so in our book, and purely for info, I informed ATC on arrival in the UK and requested no further action. This was at about 04.30. First they tried to persuade me to go to an airport 'with more than one runway', then they declared a full emergency (my words) without telling me. The sort that has fire engines hammering up the A23 from Brighton.
In your book it tells you to tell us, and in our book it says possible big problem, we will put on a full emergency. If you tell us, but then say disregard it, you have done your bit, your backside is covered, but we have to ignore it i.e. not cover ours. Bit unfair to then whinge about it. If you're not bothered don't tell us. If you do, expect us to take whatever action is in the book, commensurate with the problem.
Either way tell us and live with the subsequent action, you may be glad one day!!!!
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If you tell us, but then say disregard it, you have done your bit, your backside is covered, but we have to ignore it i.e. not cover ours.
So please don't be surprised if you are met by emergency services after making what may be to you an offhand comment about some system or other. You need to remember that chances are the controller working you has no idea as to how severe the problem is to the operation of the aircraft (to qoute Turn it off "1 - Whats the Blue System?") so as i've already said, we'll err on the side of caution.
Surely if its important enough for your operation manual to tell you that you should tell ATC, its important enough for us to call out the AFS?!?
FB
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BJCC, Terrain, fly bhoy
Well said there i feel, it's all very well the CPT/FO declaring then disregarding, but the peeps on the ground have to call in services otherwise if it did go wrong at the last minute then we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle, especially in a regional airport like BRS or CWL!!
This is a great debate we have here, and i feel that it's opened my eyes to some very grey areas, I work on the ground for an airline and have been doing my job for 3.5 yrs but if someone rang me to say your I/B flight has declared a PAN PAN Emergency I would probably contact Gate Gourmet and ask them to take some french bread to the aircraft with the greatest urgency!!
All joking aside though I really wouldn't until now have had a clue what a PAN PAN is.
Well said there i feel, it's all very well the CPT/FO declaring then disregarding, but the peeps on the ground have to call in services otherwise if it did go wrong at the last minute then we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle, especially in a regional airport like BRS or CWL!!
This is a great debate we have here, and i feel that it's opened my eyes to some very grey areas, I work on the ground for an airline and have been doing my job for 3.5 yrs but if someone rang me to say your I/B flight has declared a PAN PAN Emergency I would probably contact Gate Gourmet and ask them to take some french bread to the aircraft with the greatest urgency!!
All joking aside though I really wouldn't until now have had a clue what a PAN PAN is.
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Further to this thread a Question to the emergency services personnel who may be called to assist.
With reference to a 'Full Emergency' declared for of airfield backup, do the services get a time frame of the arrival of the aircraft. Or do the troops arrive full blues & two's and sit around for X mins whilst fuel is burnt off or drills followed. Do your management have in place a, not immediate proceed at normal speeds, or get there asap call.
Could save an incident on the way to the call out.
This comes from my personel observations at my local airfield where there have seen some v near misses on the roads.
Need you at my incident please not one enroute.
With reference to a 'Full Emergency' declared for of airfield backup, do the services get a time frame of the arrival of the aircraft. Or do the troops arrive full blues & two's and sit around for X mins whilst fuel is burnt off or drills followed. Do your management have in place a, not immediate proceed at normal speeds, or get there asap call.
Could save an incident on the way to the call out.
This comes from my personel observations at my local airfield where there have seen some v near misses on the roads.
Need you at my incident please not one enroute.
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whilst i can't comment on what the emergency services do with the information whenever an emergency is declared by atc an estimate for the arrival of the aircraft is given. if the estimate is more than 30 mins in the future then a preliminary information message is passed with all details 'to allow the services to plan their resourcing' and an emergency only declared at eta -30 mins.
antigua i find your stance on this rather surprising. as captain the safety of your passengers and aircraft (and yourself..) is obviously paramount, which i'm sure you'll agree. you seem to take offence at us second guessing your decisions (a normal reaction) but we're not your mother in law and this isn't about your living room. hundreds of people lives may be at stake.
if your book tells you to tell us, don't you think it does so for a reason?
antigua i find your stance on this rather surprising. as captain the safety of your passengers and aircraft (and yourself..) is obviously paramount, which i'm sure you'll agree. you seem to take offence at us second guessing your decisions (a normal reaction) but we're not your mother in law and this isn't about your living room. hundreds of people lives may be at stake.
if your book tells you to tell us, don't you think it does so for a reason?
If I declare a "Pan", why should that then turned into a full emergency. If I believe there is a chance of an accident I will be declaring a "Mayday" and would then expect the full emergency turnout. On this thread and earlier ones I keep hearing the quote "surely it is better to be safe than sorry", but who then covers the resources being used to cover the "full emergency". What if there is a big emergency somewhere else, that doesn't get enough resources as half the emergency services in the area are watching an aircraft land with a minor problem. Between ATC and us on the flight deck we have a professional responsibility to effect good communication to avoid this misuse of important resources.
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Right Way Up....
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the semantics of all this. If you declare a PAN, it doesn't get 'turned into' a full emergency. 'PAN and MAYDAY are terms used to highlight priority and seriousness in communication with ATC and perhaps other aircraft. They have nothing to do with the category of emergency that is declared by ATC to initiate the call out of emergency services. We wouldn't do anything if an aircraft called 'PAN' due to lack of fuel. Conversely, as has been noted, we will put on a full emergency if an a/c says he's got a partial hydraulic failure but doesn't delcare PAN or MAYDAY
If you...
We would probably put on an 'Aircraft Accident Imminent' which is far more serious than a 'Full Emergency'
If I declare a "Pan", why should that then turned into a full emergency. If I believe there is a chance of an accident I will be declaring a "Mayday" and would then expect the full emergency turnout.
If you...
believe there is a chance of an accident I will be declaring a "Mayday" and would then expect the full emergency turnout.
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hapzim
I can only talk about Heathrow as far as your question is concerned.
There were, when I was there, 400 or so Police stationed there, so a Full Emergency (and everything lower than that) does not reduce the cover to surrounding areas. There is an outside response, but it was only 3 cars when I was there, and they were for traffic reasons not a response as such.
As regards to warnings, depends when ATC get told, we have had 2 minute warnings, we did once have an hour warning.
The information used to (and I presume still does) come from ATC via an emergnecy line, in the case of Full Emergency, that was normaly 2 messages, first just giving brief details, the second giving everything else. How far apart those calls are depending, I presume on ATC.
The first call didn't normaly give an ETA, so on reciept of it, yes blues/twos and stops come out.
We had a Service Level Agreement with the airport that we would have an particular number of police on standby at an RVP within 7 minutes.
Yes, if nessesary, then the blues twos can be turned off and normal driving resumed and still be there in time. The same does not apply to the London Fire Brigade, who carry on regardless. Don't know about the Ambulance service.
The Police ambulance and to some extend non airpoert fire cover is deicided upon as the minimum numbers to cover the first stages of an accident, of course if it goes horrible, then more will be coming.
The point is though that even if you don't think of a minor problem as anything significent, how many times have these minor things gone even further wrong?
I can only talk about Heathrow as far as your question is concerned.
There were, when I was there, 400 or so Police stationed there, so a Full Emergency (and everything lower than that) does not reduce the cover to surrounding areas. There is an outside response, but it was only 3 cars when I was there, and they were for traffic reasons not a response as such.
As regards to warnings, depends when ATC get told, we have had 2 minute warnings, we did once have an hour warning.
The information used to (and I presume still does) come from ATC via an emergnecy line, in the case of Full Emergency, that was normaly 2 messages, first just giving brief details, the second giving everything else. How far apart those calls are depending, I presume on ATC.
The first call didn't normaly give an ETA, so on reciept of it, yes blues/twos and stops come out.
We had a Service Level Agreement with the airport that we would have an particular number of police on standby at an RVP within 7 minutes.
Yes, if nessesary, then the blues twos can be turned off and normal driving resumed and still be there in time. The same does not apply to the London Fire Brigade, who carry on regardless. Don't know about the Ambulance service.
The Police ambulance and to some extend non airpoert fire cover is deicided upon as the minimum numbers to cover the first stages of an accident, of course if it goes horrible, then more will be coming.
The point is though that even if you don't think of a minor problem as anything significent, how many times have these minor things gone even further wrong?
Last edited by bjcc; 19th Feb 2005 at 17:23.
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antigua i find your stance on this rather surprising.
if your book tells you to tell us, don't you think it does so for a reason?
Pilots do get prickly at people on the ground second guessing them, especially when we get bollockings for going against the book.
Like when the book says ... 'Inform ATC' and in the same sentence says 'Do NOT declare an emergency'.
Pilots tend not to be committee people. I remember sitting in the canteen at LATCC a bit ago chatting with the likes of Don G & Co. about a very similar subject to this discussion. I was told then that I had to remember that NATS was still run as a full part of the Civil Service. By committee people with the full Civil Service mentality. This thread seems to indicate that this is still so. Pilots work in a commercial atmosphere and tend to the pragmatic. Get the job done safely but expeditiously using all your experience to tell you what is acceptable in the real (commercial) world, and what is not.
Civil Service mentality seems to me to be 'cover your own back at all times if you have to make a decision which can't be buried in the anonymity of a committee'.
I think something of that has been illustrated here.
The one thing our two systems do have in common is that both our middle management's raisons d'etre are to act as one-way sh*t valves. Making sure all the **** travels from above to below middle management. None must be allowed to travel in the reverse direction.
Maybe that's worth another thread ?
Antigua
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Civil Service mentality seems to me to be 'cover your own back at all times if you have to make a decision which can't be buried in the anonymity of a committee'.
.Yes, there is some 'CYA' aspect to it, but it's not down to saving face, it's about envisioning oneself in the dock answering questions from a prosecution lawyer; why didn't you do this? etc etc. And in the last few years it's got worse. Don't forget ATCOs have ended up in prison, and in the worst case one of our number was murdered for a 'mistake' .
I can assure you, at Heathrow a 'Civil Service Mentality' has nothing to do with it.
'Inform ATC' and in the same sentence says 'Do NOT declare an emergency'.
Gonzo,
This is the problem with the system as I see it at the moment. Take the situation such as this. I am flying a 747 from LGW to Barbados and after departure I have a sys 2 Hydraulic failure. Nothing major but the company because of lack of maintenance in BGI want me to return to LGW. I tell ATC we want to return, and when asked the reason I mention that we have had a partial hydraulic failure. When I land at LGW I am amazed to find that half of the south east emergency services have comes to watch my regular carrier landing. Why? A sys 2 hydraulic failure is a complete non-event. Why am I being second guessed by somebody on the ground who has as much idea about hydraulic systems as I have about the wiggly amps being thrown about in a ground radar system. At the end of the day if I am worried about meeting my maker, believe me I will be asking for as much help as possible.
This is the problem with the system as I see it at the moment. Take the situation such as this. I am flying a 747 from LGW to Barbados and after departure I have a sys 2 Hydraulic failure. Nothing major but the company because of lack of maintenance in BGI want me to return to LGW. I tell ATC we want to return, and when asked the reason I mention that we have had a partial hydraulic failure. When I land at LGW I am amazed to find that half of the south east emergency services have comes to watch my regular carrier landing. Why? A sys 2 hydraulic failure is a complete non-event. Why am I being second guessed by somebody on the ground who has as much idea about hydraulic systems as I have about the wiggly amps being thrown about in a ground radar system. At the end of the day if I am worried about meeting my maker, believe me I will be asking for as much help as possible.