Bombardier Accident at Teterboro
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No Upper Wing Frost for 737NG
Valve Kilmer wrote: Don't think Uncle Boeing totally agrees on that statement. At least the 737NG is certified for takeoff, with certain parts of the upper wingsurface covered by a thin layer of rimefrost.
This might not be accurately stated. Perhaps a typing error?
I looked into the statement, and found that in Boeing's 737NG Vol I in the Normal Procedures chapter, Section 20, page 20.3 under exterior inspection that there is this note:
"NOTE: Takeoff with light coatings of frost, up to 1/8th inch (3mm) in thickness on lower wing surfaces due to cold fuel, is permissible; however, all leading edge devices, all control surfaces, upper wing surfaces and balance panel cavities must be free of snow or ice."
So, frost, due to cold-soaked fuel, may be up to 1/8th on the LOWER SURFACE, and even then must only appear under the tanks. This was the same guidance for the MD-80 series I previously flew.
I cannot imagine any aircraft manufacturer would permit takeoff with any frost, ice, or snow on the upper surfaces. That's why the FAA developed the idea of the "clean wing" concept.
This might not be accurately stated. Perhaps a typing error?
I looked into the statement, and found that in Boeing's 737NG Vol I in the Normal Procedures chapter, Section 20, page 20.3 under exterior inspection that there is this note:
"NOTE: Takeoff with light coatings of frost, up to 1/8th inch (3mm) in thickness on lower wing surfaces due to cold fuel, is permissible; however, all leading edge devices, all control surfaces, upper wing surfaces and balance panel cavities must be free of snow or ice."
So, frost, due to cold-soaked fuel, may be up to 1/8th on the LOWER SURFACE, and even then must only appear under the tanks. This was the same guidance for the MD-80 series I previously flew.
I cannot imagine any aircraft manufacturer would permit takeoff with any frost, ice, or snow on the upper surfaces. That's why the FAA developed the idea of the "clean wing" concept.
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>>This might not be accurately stated. Perhaps a typing error?
Maybe he was thinking of the boilerplate "thin hoarfrost" statement in Boeing manuals, it actually is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage, not the wing, according to Boeing.
Maybe he was thinking of the boilerplate "thin hoarfrost" statement in Boeing manuals, it actually is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage, not the wing, according to Boeing.
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It's a very simple concept. DON'T ATTEMPT A TAKEOFF IF THERE IS ANY CONTAMINATION ON YOUR WINGS!! This basic idea applies to ANY aircraft, period.
(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has—
(1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
(2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces; or
(3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it smooth.
With the exception of that nonsensical "polished frost" statement that the AAIB has rightly slammed, NO frost, ice or snow. Other Parts have similar stipulations. Note that the regs do NOT refer to slats, country of manufacture or the antecendents of any test pilots.
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>>Note that the regs do NOT refer to slats, country of manufacture or the antecendents of any test pilots.<<
I guess if you operate your Boeing under Part 91, this would apply...
More on the evacuation:
Claudio Gomez, who unloads trucks at the Strawberry clothing company warehouse that was hit by the plane, struggled through snow, smoke and flames three times to reach the aircraft, and each time he pulled someone to safety.
"I really didn't feel scared when it was happening," Gomez, 32, of West New York, said in newspaper reports published Thursday. "But when I got home and took a shower, that's when it hit me. That's when I started to shake."
When the jet crashed, Gomez thought it was an auto accident until he looked around the corner from the loading dock.
"I saw a woman, she looked like a stewardess," he said. "There was a snowbank along the side of the building and she was sunken into it. She was about two feet away from the plane and was yelling, `Help me! Help me!"'
Gomez pushed through the snow, grabbed her and got her to a parking lot. Then he went back, grabbed a man who had fallen in the snow and carried him away. He went back again and found a man, believed to be the co-pilot, on the ground, his leg badly hurt.
"The plane is going to explode!" Gomez said the man told him in Spanish. "Leave me, save yourself." Gomez said he answered in Spanish, "Be strong," and took the man's arm and dragged him across the parking lot.
Firefighters arrived and began dousing the fire. The plane did not explode.
"What he did was above and beyond the call," said Gomez's boss, Luis Ruiz. "But that's the kind of guy he is. He's like that on the job."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/03/pla....ap/index.html
I guess if you operate your Boeing under Part 91, this would apply...
More on the evacuation:
Claudio Gomez, who unloads trucks at the Strawberry clothing company warehouse that was hit by the plane, struggled through snow, smoke and flames three times to reach the aircraft, and each time he pulled someone to safety.
"I really didn't feel scared when it was happening," Gomez, 32, of West New York, said in newspaper reports published Thursday. "But when I got home and took a shower, that's when it hit me. That's when I started to shake."
When the jet crashed, Gomez thought it was an auto accident until he looked around the corner from the loading dock.
"I saw a woman, she looked like a stewardess," he said. "There was a snowbank along the side of the building and she was sunken into it. She was about two feet away from the plane and was yelling, `Help me! Help me!"'
Gomez pushed through the snow, grabbed her and got her to a parking lot. Then he went back, grabbed a man who had fallen in the snow and carried him away. He went back again and found a man, believed to be the co-pilot, on the ground, his leg badly hurt.
"The plane is going to explode!" Gomez said the man told him in Spanish. "Leave me, save yourself." Gomez said he answered in Spanish, "Be strong," and took the man's arm and dragged him across the parking lot.
Firefighters arrived and began dousing the fire. The plane did not explode.
"What he did was above and beyond the call," said Gomez's boss, Luis Ruiz. "But that's the kind of guy he is. He's like that on the job."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/03/pla....ap/index.html
Last edited by Airbubba; 4th Feb 2005 at 02:23.
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Do you need the part 121 or 135 equivalent posted?
Sec. 121.629 Operation in icing conditions.
(a) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft, continue to operate an aircraft en route, or land an aircraft when in the opinion of the pilot in command or aircraft dispatcher (domestic and flag operations only), icing conditions are expected or met that might adversely affect the safety of the flight.
(b) No person may take off an aircraft when frost, ice, or snow is adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft or when the takeoff would not be in compliance with paragraph (c) of this section. Takeoffs with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks may be authorized by the Administrator.
Sec. 121.629 Operation in icing conditions.
(a) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft, continue to operate an aircraft en route, or land an aircraft when in the opinion of the pilot in command or aircraft dispatcher (domestic and flag operations only), icing conditions are expected or met that might adversely affect the safety of the flight.
(b) No person may take off an aircraft when frost, ice, or snow is adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft or when the takeoff would not be in compliance with paragraph (c) of this section. Takeoffs with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks may be authorized by the Administrator.
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I believe there was a case some time ago when an aircraft with twin rear mounted engines took off with hoar frost on the wings which came off on take off, went into the engines and caused a double flame out.
Could have happened here?
Could have happened here?
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From Boeing Volume 1, B737-700 Supplementary Procedures section 3.
'Takeoff with light coatings of cold soaked fuel frost on upper wing surfaces is permissible, provided the following conditions are met:
The frost is less than 1.5mm thickness
The extent of the frost is similar on both wings
The frost is within the black lines denoted on figure (basically inboard half of the wing, well away from both leading and trailing edges)
Ambient air temp is above freezing
There is no precipitation or visible moisture
If all above criteria are not met, all ice or frost on the wings must be removed.
P.S Our company does not allow us to practice this,
'Takeoff with light coatings of cold soaked fuel frost on upper wing surfaces is permissible, provided the following conditions are met:
The frost is less than 1.5mm thickness
The extent of the frost is similar on both wings
The frost is within the black lines denoted on figure (basically inboard half of the wing, well away from both leading and trailing edges)
Ambient air temp is above freezing
There is no precipitation or visible moisture
If all above criteria are not met, all ice or frost on the wings must be removed.
P.S Our company does not allow us to practice this,
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Thank you Airbubba and Mad flt scientist for holding me up here. Yes, takeoff is permitted even on the CRJ 200 (and I would assume the Challenger as well) with LIMITED quantities of frost/clear ice on the UNDER side of the wing. Specifically, this applies only to areas in contact with the fuel, and definitely well away from the leading edge--which is the most critical part on these wings.
I was completely floored by Bingo's assertion that the aircraft shouldn't have been certified as a business aircraft with this config because time constraints, and blah blah blah mean that people will do it!
I mean, people take off without reading checklists too, but does that mean that we should build them with only one button in the cockpit so the pilots who don't use them can be safe too? What about maintenance? Maybe we should only certify maintenance free aircraft so that if the boss is in a hurry we never delay due to mechanicals. Hell, why not insist on being able to MEL everything on the aircraft, including the wings, so we don't have to worry about that pesky ice thing ever?
Come on! If you're going to fly a big business jet with supercritical wings, you need to keep them clean--same as you need to put on fuel. The leading edges must be polished on a schedule on those things to maintain airworthiness, so why would one expect to be able to take off with a big load of frost on them?
Clearly the regs don't allow any contamination and that's for a good reason. I really don't give a rat's behind whether Big Daddy Boeing lets you do it--it still is not legal or safe.
I was completely floored by Bingo's assertion that the aircraft shouldn't have been certified as a business aircraft with this config because time constraints, and blah blah blah mean that people will do it!
I mean, people take off without reading checklists too, but does that mean that we should build them with only one button in the cockpit so the pilots who don't use them can be safe too? What about maintenance? Maybe we should only certify maintenance free aircraft so that if the boss is in a hurry we never delay due to mechanicals. Hell, why not insist on being able to MEL everything on the aircraft, including the wings, so we don't have to worry about that pesky ice thing ever? Come on! If you're going to fly a big business jet with supercritical wings, you need to keep them clean--same as you need to put on fuel. The leading edges must be polished on a schedule on those things to maintain airworthiness, so why would one expect to be able to take off with a big load of frost on them?
Clearly the regs don't allow any contamination and that's for a good reason. I really don't give a rat's behind whether Big Daddy Boeing lets you do it--it still is not legal or safe.
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None wrote:
Well, my first post wasn't very accurate, sorry about that. However, The Greaser did post the criterea for departing in a 737NG with certain parts of the UPPER wingsurface covered by frost.
Our company allow us to use this Boeing procedure.
Sorry for highjacking the thread.
Rgrds VK
cannot imagine any aircraft manufacturer would permit takeoff with any frost, ice, or snow on the upper surfaces
Takeoff with light coatings of cold soaked fuel frost on upper wing surfaces is permissible, provided the following conditions are met:
The frost is less than 1.5mm thickness
The extent of the frost is similar on both wings
The frost is within the black lines denoted on figure (basically inboard half of the wing, well away from both leading and trailing edges)
Ambient air temp is above freezing
There is no precipitation or visible moisture
If all above criteria are not met, all ice or frost on the wings must be removed.
The frost is less than 1.5mm thickness
The extent of the frost is similar on both wings
The frost is within the black lines denoted on figure (basically inboard half of the wing, well away from both leading and trailing edges)
Ambient air temp is above freezing
There is no precipitation or visible moisture
If all above criteria are not met, all ice or frost on the wings must be removed.
Sorry for highjacking the thread.
Rgrds VK
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737NG Frost Cont'd
I do not have access to a Vol I Supplementary Procedures specifically for the 737-700. Is there a Vol I specifically for that series? The one I am reading is for the 737NG, and perhaps I wrongly assume that it applies to all 737NG aircraft.
I did look through the 737NG Supplementary Procedures section, and found Chapter 16, Adverse Weather, to be relevant. It specifically states there is to be no ice on the upper surfaces. It does talk about hoarfrost, but not on the wings. Here is what it says:
"This hoarfrost is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage provided all vents and ports are clear."
A few pages later it states this warning:
"WARNING: ...Close inspection is still required to ensure that no frost, snow or ice is adhering to the wing, leading edge devices, stabilizer, control surfaces, or other critical airplane components for takeoff."
The hoarfrost on the fuselage has been allowed for a long time. Back in the 727 days, I was required to ensure I could see paint lines on the upper fuselage. However, no frost was permitted on the upper wing surfaces, and I believe that may still be true today for all aircraft. I cannot speak with certainty concerning the 737 series aircraft. I am not qualified, nor have I ever flown any 737 aircraft. I do have on-line access to the current 737NG manuals.
I did look through the 737NG Supplementary Procedures section, and found Chapter 16, Adverse Weather, to be relevant. It specifically states there is to be no ice on the upper surfaces. It does talk about hoarfrost, but not on the wings. Here is what it says:
"This hoarfrost is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage provided all vents and ports are clear."
A few pages later it states this warning:
"WARNING: ...Close inspection is still required to ensure that no frost, snow or ice is adhering to the wing, leading edge devices, stabilizer, control surfaces, or other critical airplane components for takeoff."
The hoarfrost on the fuselage has been allowed for a long time. Back in the 727 days, I was required to ensure I could see paint lines on the upper fuselage. However, no frost was permitted on the upper wing surfaces, and I believe that may still be true today for all aircraft. I cannot speak with certainty concerning the 737 series aircraft. I am not qualified, nor have I ever flown any 737 aircraft. I do have on-line access to the current 737NG manuals.
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"The National Transportation Safety Board will hold a
briefing today at 3:00 p.m., EDT, to update the media on the
investigation into the accident involving a corporate jet
aircraft, a Canadair CL-600, at Teterboro Airport in New
Jersey."
***********************************
Reports last night indicated they (NTSB) were going to try to interview the flight crew today.
I noticed in one of the pictures the flaps appear to be at a takeoff setting, but showing no spoiler deployment (no judgement here...they could have dropped back down with loss of HYD pressure). Reversers in deployed posistion.
briefing today at 3:00 p.m., EDT, to update the media on the
investigation into the accident involving a corporate jet
aircraft, a Canadair CL-600, at Teterboro Airport in New
Jersey."
***********************************
Reports last night indicated they (NTSB) were going to try to interview the flight crew today.
I noticed in one of the pictures the flaps appear to be at a takeoff setting, but showing no spoiler deployment (no judgement here...they could have dropped back down with loss of HYD pressure). Reversers in deployed posistion.
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>Clearly the regs don't allow any >contamination and that's for a good >reason. I really don't give a rat's behind >whether Big Daddy Boeing lets you do i>t--it still is not legal or safe.
As has been stated already on this forum, it is legal and safe in some aircraft(including some non-Boeing aircaft) to have certain amounts of frost under the wings during takeoff.
As has been stated already on this forum, it is legal and safe in some aircraft(including some non-Boeing aircaft) to have certain amounts of frost under the wings during takeoff.
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Some more reports on the crew with names:
Miramar flier laid up with injuries from crash
Despite the severity of Wednesday's aviation mishap, there was no loss of life.
BY DAVID PORTER
Associated Press
TETERBORO, N.J. - Passengers and crew members of a corporate jet that skidded off a runway and roared across a six-lane highway managed to walk or crawl from the fiery wreckage, and authorities expressed amazement that no one was killed.
About 20 people were taken to hospitals, including copilot Carlos Salavarria and flight attendant Angelica Calad-Gomez, both of Broward County.
Tony Porras, president of Jetmark Aviation Services based at Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport, said Thursday that Salavarria suffered severe leg and shoulder injuries and has undergone several surgeries since the Wednesday morning crash at Teterboro Airport, 12 miles from midtown Manhattan.
The flight, carrying 11 crew and passengers, was bound for Chicago's Midway Airport.
Porras said Salavarria, of Miramar, has flown for his company for the past four years.
''His wife and brothers are by his bedside now,'' he said. ``From what I understand, it's going to take him six months or a year to walk again.''
The Newark Star-Ledger is reporting that the pilot of the private Bombardier Canadair Challenger CL-600 jet is John Kimberling, of South Florida.
Calad-Gomez, 22, of Coconut Creek, helped usher passengers out of the blazing plane, which skidded across six lanes of traffic and smashed into a warehouse after failing to take off.
The day of the crash, Calad-Gomez called her boss at Fort Lauderdale nightclub Voodoo Lounge to say that she would try to come to work as scheduled on Friday, said co-worker and friend Renee Jaquitch.
''That's just her,'' Jaquitch said.
``She's a fighter, a spunky little thing. Of course, you never know how you're going to react in that kind of situation, but I wasn't that surprised to hear how she acted.''...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/10811793.htm
Miramar flier laid up with injuries from crash
Despite the severity of Wednesday's aviation mishap, there was no loss of life.
BY DAVID PORTER
Associated Press
TETERBORO, N.J. - Passengers and crew members of a corporate jet that skidded off a runway and roared across a six-lane highway managed to walk or crawl from the fiery wreckage, and authorities expressed amazement that no one was killed.
About 20 people were taken to hospitals, including copilot Carlos Salavarria and flight attendant Angelica Calad-Gomez, both of Broward County.
Tony Porras, president of Jetmark Aviation Services based at Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport, said Thursday that Salavarria suffered severe leg and shoulder injuries and has undergone several surgeries since the Wednesday morning crash at Teterboro Airport, 12 miles from midtown Manhattan.
The flight, carrying 11 crew and passengers, was bound for Chicago's Midway Airport.
Porras said Salavarria, of Miramar, has flown for his company for the past four years.
''His wife and brothers are by his bedside now,'' he said. ``From what I understand, it's going to take him six months or a year to walk again.''
The Newark Star-Ledger is reporting that the pilot of the private Bombardier Canadair Challenger CL-600 jet is John Kimberling, of South Florida.
Calad-Gomez, 22, of Coconut Creek, helped usher passengers out of the blazing plane, which skidded across six lanes of traffic and smashed into a warehouse after failing to take off.
The day of the crash, Calad-Gomez called her boss at Fort Lauderdale nightclub Voodoo Lounge to say that she would try to come to work as scheduled on Friday, said co-worker and friend Renee Jaquitch.
''That's just her,'' Jaquitch said.
``She's a fighter, a spunky little thing. Of course, you never know how you're going to react in that kind of situation, but I wasn't that surprised to hear how she acted.''...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/10811793.htm
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Report from NBC Nightly News
From this news report, the pilot claimed that when the aircraft reached VR, he tried to pull back on the yoke, but it would only go back about 1 inch. The report said when he realized that he could not move the elevator enough to rotate, he decided the only course of action he had was to try and stop the aircraft, with 1000 feet of runway left. So the reversers were deployed, and he stood on the brakes so hard that he injured himself.
If this report is true, then why did the yoke fail to go back? Was the elevator frozen from sitting outside in the freezing weather the night before? Did he perform a preflight control check prior to takeoff?
We'll have to wait and see.
If this report is true, then why did the yoke fail to go back? Was the elevator frozen from sitting outside in the freezing weather the night before? Did he perform a preflight control check prior to takeoff?
We'll have to wait and see.
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Both Captain and F/O are reported to be unable to "rotate" aircraft.....only limited elevator effectiveness.....
Waiting to hear stab setting....what is was/what it should have been....
Another player....aircraft landed after midnight after a flight from KLAS.....taxied to pickup ramp around 6:00 a.m. Not much of a layover.
Fatigue????
Only time will tell......
Waiting to hear stab setting....what is was/what it should have been....
Another player....aircraft landed after midnight after a flight from KLAS.....taxied to pickup ramp around 6:00 a.m. Not much of a layover.
Fatigue????
Only time will tell......