GO diverts from STN - Shock Horror!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> It will be interesting because we are in contract negotiations (have been for 2 years) and we are boycotting autolands right now. Wait till we need currency for Cat 3.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Why are you boycotting it, because you don't want to do it or as a lever for more money?. It's the best thing since sliced bread, you should be demanding to have it, not the other way round. And you are quite right, finding your way round the airport (even one you know well) and getting to the gate is easily the hardest part.
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This was the Telegraph's effort..... .. . . . . .. .Captain squeaking. .(Filed: 24/03/2002) . .. .FOREIGNERS who know London only through the works of Dickens may well believe that the city's airports are perpetually shrouded in swirling fog. Not so the budget airline Go, which allocated a trainee pilot to a Newcastle to London flight. He panicked his passengers when he confessed that he did not know how to land in fog and diverted to the East Midlands.. .. .Passengers using "no frills" airlines have become used to forgoing small luxuries, but this could be a new direction for economy travel. While nibbling peanuts at 35,000 ft, we may hear announcements like "Does anyone know the way to Tenerife?". .. .Perhaps announcements from the flight deck are a "frill" which should be cut. The pilot who tells passengers about every air current no doubt dreams of emulating the British Airways captain who landed a plane safely after announcing: "Ladies and Gentlemen. All four engines have stopped, but we're doing our damndest to get them going.". .. .Travellers facing delays invariably complain: "It wouldn't have been so bad if someone had told us the problem." But events on Flight GO612 last Friday confirmed that, regardless of the public's right to know, it is often much kinder to keep us in the dark.
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Only a fool would announce over the PA anything other than 'due to the current weather conditions at XYZ being below our legal limits we must now divert to our alternate ABC'.. .After making this announcement only a greater fool would then go on to answer pax questions.. .Great training for the new first officer however, how not to do it! . .If I were the Chief Pilot this captain would be ridden. We don't pay him (or her) all that money for f**kups of this monumental size.. .An extremely poor show. Too many getting through the system as far as I'm concerned.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />
Puritan,. .. .Saying the fog was too thick was not only logical but very responsible. You are totally correct in downplaying such a situation. Any more information you could have harmed the company with this level of journalism around and created undue stress on a poorly educated public. . .. .I believe it's our job to move their armchairs as smoothly as possible, the least they know about the experience the better. We recently had one of our pilots use the term catastrophic in a PA regarding engine failure, does anyone teach pilots what to say in PA's? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
"The INTRODUCER"
Cactusbusdrvr,. .. .on a different matter, do you happen to know if your company still plans to swap out the Honeywell FMS for Smiths/Thales? Reply offline if you prefer.
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Asking the inevitable hypothetical question, what would have happened if there had been a medical emergency, incapacitating the "qualified" pilot, would the trainee have been allowed to land under Cat 3 conditions, if that was the only airfield available?
With respect Newswatcher your question demonstrates a lack of understanding with regard to choice of en-route and destination alternates and pre-flight planning.. .To put you in the picture: before departure the destination weather must (with one exception) be above appropriate landing minima for the expected approach aid to be used,also the crew must select at least one destination alternate with weather conditions forecast to be (within plus/minus one hour of estimated time of arrival at that alternate) above landing minima for the next lower landing aid available i.e. if the alternate airport has CAT 3/2 ILS and the crew are qualified then we can nominate it, provided it's RVR is above CAT 1 minima (usually 550 meters), this allows for system failures or even pilot incapacitation that could downgrade the aircraft's status to CAT 1 only. If the crew are not qualified to CAT 3/2 standard or the alternate only has a CAT 1 ILS then the weather forecast must be better than non-precision approach minima, and so on. The one exception mentioned above is: if the destination weather is forecast below appropriate limits we can proceed towards it (but not land)provided we have two destination alternates available, selection criteria as above. This is to allow for the possibility that the destination weather may be better than forecast and permit an approach if above limits.. .So you'll see there will never be a situation where the only available airport is experiencing CAT 3 weather conditions with a non CAT 3 qualified crew.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 13:30: Message edited by: Nightstop ]</small>
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Ellion . .. .If you had taken the time to read the information offered from an official source rather than the daily firelighter, you would have been aware that it was Captain being trained, with a Training Captain in the other seat.. .. .Furthermore, your profile states that one of your interests is honesty, and yet you have the cheek to condemn someone (whilst obvious not in full possession of the facts yourself) for being honest. Had he not explained the situation, then would the pax not have been somewhat surprised to see another pilot climb onboard before finally setting off to STN?. .. .Here's some more honesty. In my opinion, your posting has made you look a fool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />
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Thanks Nightstop, I was mostly aware of the regulations you describe, although these are sometimes subject to abuse by certain operators(Avianca 707 New York, 1990). I was merely speculating as to whether this restriction was always enforced. . .. .If the other member of crew needed urgent medical attention, would the "unqualified" pilot be allowed to proceed with the landing, or would he have to go to the alternate, thus delaying medical aid?. .. .I appreciate the chances of a "double whammy" are statistically remote!. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 13:41: Message edited by: newswatcher ]</small>
The answer to your question depends on what is written in the pilots' Operations Manual, itself approved by the relevant aviation authority. Some consider it safer to continue the CAT 3 approach (if the aircraft has left top of descent point) than to divert to a CAT 1 airport with an incapacitated flight deck crew member. The CAT 3 approach and landing are as you know fully automatic.
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The problem stems from airlines trying to teach Captains how to do PA´s.I have travelled on all the UK´s low-cost airlines(if thats the right word) and all the PA´s are remarkably similar..dire,boring and trite,as if the poor pilots are all sticking to a prepared script.. .If you hire a pilot to fly your planes all over Europe,then entrust him or her to say what comes naturally,and leave it at that.. .All the best PA´s(and they can be very important when a situation develops)are spontaneously delivered.. .Whether you tell the folks the hard truth or not is up to the individual concerned..it shouldnt be part of Company policy.
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ELLION,. .. .Take the time to read before you judge. The P.A. made in-flight made no mention of training ETC It was full of STANDARD stuff. I understand the problem arose when waiting 1H30M on the ground in EMA for a reserve to be called off the bench.. .. .As for too many getting through the system - you prove that perfectly, well done.
This rubbish was all started by a trainee journalist who happened to be on board. In one paper she claimed the pax "gasped" when told the situation, in another paper (that often carries the same stories - one was the Mail, the other The Telegraph), she claimed the pax "gasped and screamed". Come on Miss Trainee, which was true and which was the lie? She also phoned BALPA before launching into print and I gather was told the facts, but chose to ignore them.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 20:00: Message edited by: Hew Jampton ]</small>
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Journo most likely needed a big story to get some more coke in.. .. .- Oops, I'm sorry, was that a sweeping assumption? I'd better take it back else I'll be lynched. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .I recently sat as pax in a flight from Bangkok to Ko Samui, which took off three hours later than planned. Just prior to approach the captain chirped up something to the effect: "Sorry for the delay to this flight, which was due to a serious malfunction with the aircraft in an earlier flight." Right then, okay!
The bit that gets me is the use of the pejorative "so called" before CAT3 in the qoute from the original report, but then it was by a so called journalist.. .. .FWIW my experience of the public in other arenas is that 99% appreciate and understand an explanation of the truth. An understanding of why they are being inconvenienced and of the pressures that cause it foster greater loyalty. It's the other 1% with an axe to grind or an eye for the earnings or compensation from publicly misrepresenting or playing on the truth who cause the problem. . .. .So do we then run our businesess publicity on that off chance that we are dealing with the minority?.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 21:07: Message edited by: Airbanda ]</small>
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Given the amount of inaccuracies and plain lies in the story, is it a case of libel?. .Or can you only libel an individual, rather than a company?. .If anyone has cancelled their flights as a result of this tripe, I hope Go can sue the journalist for damages...
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There's s bit of shooting the messenger going on here. I am not and have never been a journo, but if I were I could have a field day with this thread. If you don't like the story, and if the facts stand up, get on with avoiding the next story.