Squawking Ident

[Ojuka]

180 to fower -

CAP413 instructs you to readback a "Squawk Ident" instruction, as well as obviously pressing the button.

[180 Too Fower]

Will read back from now on, I was always under the impression that we were not meant to. Can't find my old CAP 413 any more but I bow to your knowledge.

[Sleeve Wing]

>It would indeed appear that some ATC folks are not all that familiar with ICAO procedures....UK folks in particular.<

What is it with you, 411A ?
If you'd spent any appreciable time "over this side" , you would know that UK controllers are as good, if not better, than any in the world.

I've spent over 40 years talking to them, amongst many others, and I know who I would prefer to be talking to on a dark and stormy night!

Sleeve.

[kishna]

CAP 413 can be found on the caa website.
http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/publications.asp

[Cosmo]

It would indeed appear that some ATC folks are not all that familiar with ICAO procedures....UK folks in particular.

No offence intended, but if you were to look into it a bit more, you'd find that the Chicago Convention is based on the principle of State sovereignty. Sure, the idea is that all States would employ the same rules in their national laws, but the "ICAO" system, as you put it, is just basically standard international law. The only way it differs from "normal" international law is that a standard in an Annex becomes binding on a State unless that State has notified of a difference. In a way this means that signatories to the treaty have committed themselves to following future changes to any Annex unless they positively say they're not going to implement the change.

This is why we have national variations in the way of doing things, and that's why the AIP is ever so important as you have to comply with the rules of any State that you're flying in/over.

So as far as the UK is concerned, they could have a requirement to report altitude/level passing when reading back a heading instruction if they so chose.

[hart744]

I do a lot of long haul flyings and I believe London ATC is one of the most professional ATC in the world. Even when they are busy, they sound very calm and relaxed. Flying into the major airports like LAX, ORD, JFK in the US could be very stressful.

[bluepilot]

411A

Real MATS (manual of air traffic services) it tells you what you should and should not do. Many states have filed excemptions to ICAO.

[Few Cloudy]

Let´s not forget that other folks are trying to keep a picture of the traffic situation too - ie. other pilots.

Calling your FL / Alt when you check in immediately informs another pilot whether he might be affected by your flight.

Every little bit helps.

FC.

[411A]

Would agree completely Cosmo, individual states do indeed have differencies/exemptions from ICAO.

Now, IF the UK does in this instance, perhaps you would like to give a reference to same, and a link if at all possible.

And, yes, I have probably spent much more time flying on the eastern side of the great devide...about thirty years worth.
My first ops to LHR were in 1974, in a B707.
And yes, they are indeed nice folks...but then again I have a personal preference for the ATC folks in AMS, and the Netherlands in general...which are certainly just as professional (if not better) than in the UK.

[BOAC]

For the benefit of 411A and any other regular visitors to the UK's excellent ATC services, 'kishna' has kindly provided a link (a few boxes up) to CAP413 which defines UK SID procedures, and other filed exceptions/differences to ICAO, and from Chapter 6 (1) of which I quote:-

"1.1.2 Pilots of all aircraft flying Instrument Departures are to include the following information on first contact with approach control/departure radar:
a) Call sign;
b) SID Designator where appropriate;
c) Current or passing ALT/FL; PLUS
d) Cleared ALT/FL. For Standard Instrument Departures involving stepped climb profiles, state the initial ALT/FL to which the aircraft is climbing."

[411A]

Would agree, BOAC, and indeed thus is indicated on additional Jep pages in the LHR section....for the FIRST call only.

But it says nothing about descending aircraft reporting passing altitudes, nor does it address climbing aircraft once they have left the standard instrument departure (DP in the USA), so I would maintain that mentioning passing altitudes/flight levels is otherwise not required (unless specifically requested to do so) and further, adds to frequency congestion.

[Cosmo]

411A,

Sorry, I don't know about the specific practices in the UK as I don't fly there.
I just thought I'd present the strict legal side of things, but I now see that that was somewhat superfluous as it wasn't news to you.

[5milesbaby]

On the en-route radar side of ATC in the UK.

When being transferred to a London ATC radar control service from another radar control service be it inside or outside the UK FIR then all we need reporting is the cleared or cruising flight level.

If you are transferred to London from any other service (ie still outside CAS) then you will need to be verified as well as validated, therefore the passing FL will also be needed on first contact. The only exception I know to this rule is when transferred from many of the military units to London radar as the military units are deemed capable of validating and verifying Mode A/C.


Please acknowledge the instruction to Squalk Ident when requested even if its just a 'roger'. If we know you have acknowledged then we can be confident the ident we see is you and then the ident has been successful.

[GS-Alpha]

My understanding is that you do not report passing Altitudes/Flight levels, unless requested. The only exception to this is when making first contact once airborne, at which point you should give the details posted by BOAC earlier.

Something that I often find strange is a controller telling you to contact the next frequency with your heading. It is my understanding that you should always give cleared altitude and assigned heading when checking in, so why the need for the instruction?

[unwiseowl]

Because we often forget to tell them we're on a heading!

[RDi]

My understanding is that you do not report passing Altitudes/Flight levels, unless requested.

My understanding was the other way round - you should always give level information on first call on a new freq.

Seems to be borne out by this bit in the last few pages of my old home copy of Aerad Europe & Mid East Supplement, Air Traffic Control, United Kingdom, para 8.1.2

When changing frequency between any London or Manchester Sector pilots are required to give callsign and Flight Level (when not in level flight, the level through which the aircraft is passing and the level to which cleared)

"required" ...

Hope that helps, 411A and GS-Alpha.

Cheers

[FE Hoppy]

will enhanced mode s transponders put an end to all this?

[Barry Cuda]

Blimey, I appear to have stirred up a right old fight here....

When I said that I was more concerned about people not reporting there passing altitude I was alluding to departure procedures, as that was the point of the discussion on the Ident feature.

With regards to first call on a new frequency I have no problems if you do or you don't report your passing altitude, just as long as you report your cleared altitude and any headings and speeds that have been assigned.

Now, if we can all calm down and relax maybe people will be able to get things right....

[Hudson Bay]

Not sure why Pilots need to depart from the regulations laid down by the authorities. I guess the Pilots know better!!! I heard a comment the other day from a student come 500 hour Jet First Officer that the books were written years ago and we have moved on since then! Oh dear.

If we fly by the book no-one can touch us when there's a mess-up. Besides that, the procedures laid out have been tried and tested for years and THEY WORK. If you have a problem with them get them changed.

What were we talking about? Oh yes. Ident should NEVER be given unless asked by ATC. 24 - 7. The correct response is Willco followed by the FULL CALLSIGN. Not just the number.

As for alltitude reporting, if the passing level is not given in the initial contact then you DO NOT HAVE A RADAR SERVICE. The transponder is NOT verified and in a court of law you wouldn't stand a chance.

No more passing levels are required unless asked for.

When changing frequencies, the level you are climbing too should be passed along with either your heading or routing and FULL CALLSIGN.

Is that really too difficult?

Oh and just one more thing, Stop calling your mates name between transmissions. And thats not me being a stick in the mud although I do find it very unproffesional. The CAA are considering tracking down the culprits which will result in a written warning from your company. Now that's sure to stir things up!!

[fireflybob]

Hudson Bay - I agree 100%.

If this is a PROFESSIONAL Pilots Forum why should anyone be questioning whether or not Transponder operating instructions should be read back when this is clearly spelt out in CAP 413?