Are you still enjoying it?!!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I think I have just about had my fill of the individuals who say put up with the status qo because that is the way of the world! Get a life guys. We have watched our t'S & C's get steadily eroded because we have allowed it Pilots squabble with Pilots quoting seniority lists etc while at the same time Managements enjoy the peace of not being bothered. Unions cannot convince us to take affirmative action it historically only takes the threat. Still we squabble amongst ourselves. God you all deserve what you have got and I'm one of you. WHEN ARE WE ALL GOING TO STAND UP AND STOP TAKING THIS CRAP? Ryanair and MOL are only the start dont think for one moment that the bullying will stop.It wont. A strike threat or even a work to our many rules would certainly concentrate a few minds
Given half the chance I'd be out of here. But we all know what its like to be held hostage to school fees and mortgages etc.
Given half the chance I'd be out of here. But we all know what its like to be held hostage to school fees and mortgages etc.
niknak
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I am an ATCO, so perhaps I am intruding upon the hallowed turf of "the other side", but in 25 years of ATC I've loved every moment of it.
I can't think of any other job that pays as much for not taking the work home with you, and although we work very hard when we are on console, relatively we work a lot less hours than those who would do so to earn an equivilant sum outside the industry.
Naturally, if my ship came in, I would retire tommorrow, but my ship hasnt left port yet.
The reason I have posted is that my son is firmly committed to flying as a career, he's a bright lad, and if he continues in his present vein, could easily qualify to become and atco, scientist, politician or pilot, however, he wants to take it that step further and fly.
I know, as does he, what obstacles lie ahead of him in the process of qualification and knowing that that's only the start of things, getting a step on the ladder to becoming a commercial pilot is a monumental challenge.
After that, he knows he may have to spend God knows how many hours flying at any hour or any day to achieve his goal - whatever that may be when he is old enough.
He's only 15, but there are 100s of young men and women who are in the same boat who would kill to get the chance that most of you have worked so hard for.
20 years ago, it was a BA scholarship, now, unless you're one of the exceptional few, it's a chance to improve yourself by flying with a Lo Co or freight airline.
Thats the way the industry goes, all I would ask is that you don't put the pilots of tomorrow off by the bad experiences of today.
I can't think of any other job that pays as much for not taking the work home with you, and although we work very hard when we are on console, relatively we work a lot less hours than those who would do so to earn an equivilant sum outside the industry.
Naturally, if my ship came in, I would retire tommorrow, but my ship hasnt left port yet.
The reason I have posted is that my son is firmly committed to flying as a career, he's a bright lad, and if he continues in his present vein, could easily qualify to become and atco, scientist, politician or pilot, however, he wants to take it that step further and fly.
I know, as does he, what obstacles lie ahead of him in the process of qualification and knowing that that's only the start of things, getting a step on the ladder to becoming a commercial pilot is a monumental challenge.
After that, he knows he may have to spend God knows how many hours flying at any hour or any day to achieve his goal - whatever that may be when he is old enough.
He's only 15, but there are 100s of young men and women who are in the same boat who would kill to get the chance that most of you have worked so hard for.
20 years ago, it was a BA scholarship, now, unless you're one of the exceptional few, it's a chance to improve yourself by flying with a Lo Co or freight airline.
Thats the way the industry goes, all I would ask is that you don't put the pilots of tomorrow off by the bad experiences of today.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
O.K., this job kills you. The disruption to the daily life, lack of sleep, etc. shortens lifespan. The disruption to family life, missing kid's birthdays, school sports. Marriage break ups because you're never home. Forced changes of base meaning wife has to change jobs, kids have to change school and so on. Eating and drinking all the wrong things, be it too much coffee and "bacon and beans" on the flight deck or booze and McDonalds on a night stop. Your hearing suffers because of the constant noise (pardon, too many years alongside a Dart). Your eyes suffer from too much glare and UV. Your risk of cancer increases because of the exposure to radiation. A lot of the fun has gone; it didn't become the safest means of transportation by allowing us to continue enjoying ourselves like we did.
Yes, opting out sometimes seems like a good idea, but;
if I'd been in any other job, I would have died of boredom years ago and:
after 39 years, it's still the best way in the world to earn a living.
Yes, opting out sometimes seems like a good idea, but;
if I'd been in any other job, I would have died of boredom years ago and:
after 39 years, it's still the best way in the world to earn a living.
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Lets see...you can get a 9-5 job working in a cubical for a boss who is as tyranical as any in aviation, fight traffic 3 hours each day etc etc etc etc.
I think this is a case of the grass is greener..........
Did the 9-5 and was lucky enough to make very good money. For me it is still not worth it.
But if yuo don't enjoy the flying either fight to make it better or find something you think is better--it may work out.
I think this is a case of the grass is greener..........
Did the 9-5 and was lucky enough to make very good money. For me it is still not worth it.
But if yuo don't enjoy the flying either fight to make it better or find something you think is better--it may work out.
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I'm still smiling after all these years. Sh*t I must be a sad b'stard.
I can still remember my first solo, and that first flight on each new type. I have many pearls of wisdom gained from those rear and special top Captains that are now gurus of the industry. I also have some top shelf learning experiences picked up from dickheads that have found their way in to aviation. I've seen the light being switched on in a young mind struggling in this strange world we live in. I've also seen the mellowing and maturing of the "God's gift to aviation" brand new jet apprentice.
Over the years I have tried to stay true to myself and my values. I've had respect for the mob I've worked for, and had their respect. Without that, my feet would do the talking.
I've had the odd run-in with management and thrown my toys out of the cot - only to have management help me pick my toys back up and put them where they belong. I have had management theaten voilence and mayhem - only to end up offering apologies and surrender or compromise.
My current company has a management with some positives and a desire to do better - but enough negatives for the whingers to have a go. The training staff do a stella job - but the odd stuff up gives the pirahnas something to feed off. The flying staff are generally fairly balance individuals - but the infrequent and inevitable personality clash will see the anally retentive spew forth on the worlds evils.
All-in-all, a balanced company. Varies depending on whether your glass is half full or half empty.
The job I'm in now doesn't give me the same time at home as I had before (but that job was special). Even so, my wife sometimes phones the company to find out when I have to go back to work so I'm not under her feet. I've missed too many birthdays and 'firsts', but also been able to make up for it with some specials of my own.
Is the money enough? Define 'enough'. And my non-tangible rewards are worth a bit to me. My family also profits from some of the non-tangibles. We're happy.
Is the job worth it? It can get at you at times, and somedays my eyes don't want to open when the alarm goes off. But I enjoy the flying, the satisfaction of a job well done, the self examination that comes with the odd f**k-up, the adventure of staying right up with it. I can accept a lot of the bullsh*t that goes with the job, but challenge the unacceptable.
Is the job worth it? To me - YES.
I can still remember my first solo, and that first flight on each new type. I have many pearls of wisdom gained from those rear and special top Captains that are now gurus of the industry. I also have some top shelf learning experiences picked up from dickheads that have found their way in to aviation. I've seen the light being switched on in a young mind struggling in this strange world we live in. I've also seen the mellowing and maturing of the "God's gift to aviation" brand new jet apprentice.
Over the years I have tried to stay true to myself and my values. I've had respect for the mob I've worked for, and had their respect. Without that, my feet would do the talking.
I've had the odd run-in with management and thrown my toys out of the cot - only to have management help me pick my toys back up and put them where they belong. I have had management theaten voilence and mayhem - only to end up offering apologies and surrender or compromise.
My current company has a management with some positives and a desire to do better - but enough negatives for the whingers to have a go. The training staff do a stella job - but the odd stuff up gives the pirahnas something to feed off. The flying staff are generally fairly balance individuals - but the infrequent and inevitable personality clash will see the anally retentive spew forth on the worlds evils.
All-in-all, a balanced company. Varies depending on whether your glass is half full or half empty.
The job I'm in now doesn't give me the same time at home as I had before (but that job was special). Even so, my wife sometimes phones the company to find out when I have to go back to work so I'm not under her feet. I've missed too many birthdays and 'firsts', but also been able to make up for it with some specials of my own.
Is the money enough? Define 'enough'. And my non-tangible rewards are worth a bit to me. My family also profits from some of the non-tangibles. We're happy.
Is the job worth it? It can get at you at times, and somedays my eyes don't want to open when the alarm goes off. But I enjoy the flying, the satisfaction of a job well done, the self examination that comes with the odd f**k-up, the adventure of staying right up with it. I can accept a lot of the bullsh*t that goes with the job, but challenge the unacceptable.
Is the job worth it? To me - YES.
The question and debate in this thread has highlighted some of the problems in our developing industry. The modern social structure demands quick advancement in our careers, which now sees big-jet Captains at age 25. This brings problems of low experience, lower cross-cockpit age gap, and other ‘CRM’ type pressures.
However, the issue of concern is what happens to those individuals who ‘top-out’ - been there, seen it, etc, or the disillusioned. Some may have to stay in the job for financial reasons, or others focus on sideline activities; in either case this could lead to deteriorating professional standards.
On the other hand, the ‘I do it because I enjoy it’ brand press on propping up an industry under stress; yet even these people at some time will come to the point when enough is enough, hopefully at retirement date.
A problem with this group, as with those who top-out, is that some may not recognise the deterioration in their professional approach.
I have seen individuals continue far too long in aviation for a variety of reasons and I vowed to finish before I reached that point, providing I could identify it. I did, 5 years before retirement, it was primarily due to having achieved all that I wanted to, and a failing body and mind to enable greater achievements.
Professionalism involves self-assessment and judgment; these are very important attributes, even more so in today’s industry.
However, the issue of concern is what happens to those individuals who ‘top-out’ - been there, seen it, etc, or the disillusioned. Some may have to stay in the job for financial reasons, or others focus on sideline activities; in either case this could lead to deteriorating professional standards.
On the other hand, the ‘I do it because I enjoy it’ brand press on propping up an industry under stress; yet even these people at some time will come to the point when enough is enough, hopefully at retirement date.
A problem with this group, as with those who top-out, is that some may not recognise the deterioration in their professional approach.
I have seen individuals continue far too long in aviation for a variety of reasons and I vowed to finish before I reached that point, providing I could identify it. I did, 5 years before retirement, it was primarily due to having achieved all that I wanted to, and a failing body and mind to enable greater achievements.
Professionalism involves self-assessment and judgment; these are very important attributes, even more so in today’s industry.
Loved it!
Great mix of technocracy, interpersonal relationship with FC, CC, station staff and passengers; opportunities to study lands, people, religion and culture at first hand. Not forgetting, of course opportunities to sample their scuba diving, walking, exploring and, what we really joined for: their booze and night life
Bro-in-law crystalised part of it when he said flying the TriStar sim was the best Atari game he'd ever played!
You're going to get the rough with the smooth in any job any time. Don't believe all the "It used to be better." crap.
We'll all have ups and downs. You're going to have the occasional skipper who's a bit of a pain and then, when you get a command you'll find that, surprise, surprise, not all the c**** are in the LHS.
Kipling knew about RAF training and sims and route checks and medicals:
"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster,
And treat those two imposters just the same." etc.
Of course there are family disadvantages. I was working away from home whilst some of my kids were young - so were a lot of guys when I was born in 1942
Fortunately my wife could cope - but still maintains I was probably just too mean to divorce her hmm, wonder if she really means it??
That's the downside and shouldn't be dismissed but, personally, despite the effort, disappointments, embarrasments
and all I count myself lucky to have had such an absorbing and fun life.
Despite the above, I think I'd have found my other possibilities, mechanical engineering or electronics, amusing but now I'll never know.
Great mix of technocracy, interpersonal relationship with FC, CC, station staff and passengers; opportunities to study lands, people, religion and culture at first hand. Not forgetting, of course opportunities to sample their scuba diving, walking, exploring and, what we really joined for: their booze and night life
Bro-in-law crystalised part of it when he said flying the TriStar sim was the best Atari game he'd ever played!
You're going to get the rough with the smooth in any job any time. Don't believe all the "It used to be better." crap.
We'll all have ups and downs. You're going to have the occasional skipper who's a bit of a pain and then, when you get a command you'll find that, surprise, surprise, not all the c**** are in the LHS.
Kipling knew about RAF training and sims and route checks and medicals:
"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster,
And treat those two imposters just the same." etc.
Of course there are family disadvantages. I was working away from home whilst some of my kids were young - so were a lot of guys when I was born in 1942
Fortunately my wife could cope - but still maintains I was probably just too mean to divorce her
hmm, wonder if she really means it??That's the downside and shouldn't be dismissed but, personally, despite the effort, disappointments, embarrasments
and all I count myself lucky to have had such an absorbing and fun life.Despite the above, I think I'd have found my other possibilities, mechanical engineering or electronics, amusing but now I'll never know.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I confess!
I like this job!
So please, any pilot who despise his/her work, do not continue to read this post!
I'm sure you won't like it!
In my mid-fifty's and after a set back of 6 months I started flying again in another company, although I was "convinced" by my friends that I was better off home.
Six months I felt the easy does it life of the retired and "happy", as I was told again and again, ex-pilot and at the end a REAL friend told me about the opening and ... here I am AGAIN flying happily and writing to you from my hotel room in Singapore, just arrived from Sydney and having breakfast - sirloin stake - and planning to sleep the rest of the day, since tonight I'm flying back home :-)
This life started in the early seventies and still I love the odd hours and missing all the "important" dates and days "normal" people have for fun!
But then again, I have stayed home the days "normal" people HAVE to work, and I have enjoyed things that "normal" people cannot imagine :-)
Bottom line - I could write a very long post - yeap! I enjoy my life, and more importantly I found a companion - my dear wife - that enjoys this kind of life, following me in some trips, or staying back and waiting for me. So yes I enjoy my life as long as it lasts
I like this job!
So please, any pilot who despise his/her work, do not continue to read this post!
I'm sure you won't like it!
In my mid-fifty's and after a set back of 6 months I started flying again in another company, although I was "convinced" by my friends that I was better off home.
Six months I felt the easy does it life of the retired and "happy", as I was told again and again, ex-pilot and at the end a REAL friend told me about the opening and ... here I am AGAIN flying happily and writing to you from my hotel room in Singapore, just arrived from Sydney and having breakfast - sirloin stake - and planning to sleep the rest of the day, since tonight I'm flying back home :-)
This life started in the early seventies and still I love the odd hours and missing all the "important" dates and days "normal" people have for fun!
But then again, I have stayed home the days "normal" people HAVE to work, and I have enjoyed things that "normal" people cannot imagine :-)
Bottom line - I could write a very long post - yeap! I enjoy my life, and more importantly I found a companion - my dear wife - that enjoys this kind of life, following me in some trips, or staying back and waiting for me. So yes I enjoy my life as long as it lasts
Having been in the business for over 30 years and flown in the military and for 6 different airlines in various parts of the world I can honestly say that I still love to fly. Unfortunately I cannot say that I enjoy the job. The erosion of T&C's, the attitude of many managements towards their staff, the hassle of operating in the present security environment (especially in and out of the USA) all conspire to make the quality of life pretty poor. If I could afford it I would retire today and get my fix at the local flying club at the weekends.
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I only recently started flying commercially, after a long time 'getting there'.
The flying is generally great. The guys I fly with have become friends. And I am generally happy.
There are days when things really p**s me off, but there are more good days than bad, and thats important.
I changed career. The previous career had me working upto 3 times the monthly hours. Trips away were so budget constrained that the hotels were really awful and virtually no allowances. I had been made redundant 3 times. on average, once every 5 years. Companies going broke through bad management. And slowly having your freedom removed by new technology or working practices.
I can only conclude that aviation is like most other industries. (at least in the UK). I do admit, I did expect aviation to be better. But I won't be going back to my old job.
If you are here to fly and enjoy it, keep going.
If you find you are having more bad days than good, for your own sanity, do what you can to find something else.
The flying is generally great. The guys I fly with have become friends. And I am generally happy.
There are days when things really p**s me off, but there are more good days than bad, and thats important.
I changed career. The previous career had me working upto 3 times the monthly hours. Trips away were so budget constrained that the hotels were really awful and virtually no allowances. I had been made redundant 3 times. on average, once every 5 years. Companies going broke through bad management. And slowly having your freedom removed by new technology or working practices.
I can only conclude that aviation is like most other industries. (at least in the UK). I do admit, I did expect aviation to be better. But I won't be going back to my old job.
If you are here to fly and enjoy it, keep going.
If you find you are having more bad days than good, for your own sanity, do what you can to find something else.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Max Angle
Had I had the patience to say it, this is what I was trying to highlight! I'm not disputing nor questioning what people are describing here, it's a useful insight, but what hacks me off is that it appears that the whingers believe that it is worse in the avaition business than in any other. Well, I'm just saying it isn't!
So shoot me for having an opinion!
As 1DC correctly points out that the same things are happening in many other jobs
So shoot me for having an opinion!
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Snigs, perhaps if you'd stop using the term whingers to describe those expressing a different viewpoint to your own then you might get a better reaction.
Aside from that, it's interesting to note how this subject always divides pilots - a fact which has always played into managements' hands over the years. That and the constant stream of new joiners who'll gladly sell their souls to the first (never mind the highest) bidder.
Just because someone expresses disatisfaction with their working conditions doesn't mean that they're somehow less of an aviator than those who just keep saying 'yes' no matter what's demanded of them.
It also makes me chuckle when I hear the comparisons with other jobs used to prove how lucky we all are. It's always so black and white - the monty python 'I used ti lick 'road clean w' tongue' sketch revisited. 'I used to lie in a ditch in the pouring rain 24 hours a day and let me tell you flying's far better than that'. Give me a break. The world of work is not just a choice between 9 to 5 in a boring office or flying is it?
And if flying the line is so great, as management will have you believe, how come all the fleet managers etc put up with the extra hassle (as they would describe it) of the office environment? Because they got sick of flying the line that's why - and were generally devious enough to see they could set themselves up with a much more pleasant little lifestyle. And then they could chose when to go flying - but not too much old boy thank-you very much. (While continuing to tell the poor old line pilots not to whinge - lack of moral fibre and all that eh what).
Flying a jet aeroplane is great - but there's obviously a price to pay. I accept that. It's a job after all. People have to make money. Fair enough. But the scales have tipped right over. The conditions demanded by a lot of companies these days means the price to fly that jet has become unrealistic. You are expected to sell your health and personal life down the river.
I fail to see how stating what appears to be a bl**dy obvious fact makes me a whinger. And just because other industries are suffering in a similar way doesn't make it right to have our own t's and c's eroded even further.
Aside from that, it's interesting to note how this subject always divides pilots - a fact which has always played into managements' hands over the years. That and the constant stream of new joiners who'll gladly sell their souls to the first (never mind the highest) bidder.
Just because someone expresses disatisfaction with their working conditions doesn't mean that they're somehow less of an aviator than those who just keep saying 'yes' no matter what's demanded of them.
It also makes me chuckle when I hear the comparisons with other jobs used to prove how lucky we all are. It's always so black and white - the monty python 'I used ti lick 'road clean w' tongue' sketch revisited. 'I used to lie in a ditch in the pouring rain 24 hours a day and let me tell you flying's far better than that'. Give me a break. The world of work is not just a choice between 9 to 5 in a boring office or flying is it?
And if flying the line is so great, as management will have you believe, how come all the fleet managers etc put up with the extra hassle (as they would describe it) of the office environment? Because they got sick of flying the line that's why - and were generally devious enough to see they could set themselves up with a much more pleasant little lifestyle. And then they could chose when to go flying - but not too much old boy thank-you very much. (While continuing to tell the poor old line pilots not to whinge - lack of moral fibre and all that eh what).
Flying a jet aeroplane is great - but there's obviously a price to pay. I accept that. It's a job after all. People have to make money. Fair enough. But the scales have tipped right over. The conditions demanded by a lot of companies these days means the price to fly that jet has become unrealistic. You are expected to sell your health and personal life down the river.
I fail to see how stating what appears to be a bl**dy obvious fact makes me a whinger. And just because other industries are suffering in a similar way doesn't make it right to have our own t's and c's eroded even further.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Maximum, point taken, whingers is an evocative word. My initial comment was made after a long stressful day in an industry whose status is being constantly eroded. 
Ironically I’ve just finished a conversation with a colleague. I’m currently involved in the stress and design of the A380 and 7E7 hydraulic and landing gear systems for Smiths Aerospace, formally part of the Dowty Group. We’re going through an office shuffle at the moment and a colleague of mine found a long lost photo of the offices he used to work in. A nice country house. Anyway, to cut a long story short, and I kid you not, the conversation ended with the comment “oh well, things are not what they used to be, old Sir George [Dowty] really knew how to look after his workforce” I suspect that he considered the mirth this caused a little OTT as I chuckled to myself all the way back to my desk!!
Ironically I’ve just finished a conversation with a colleague. I’m currently involved in the stress and design of the A380 and 7E7 hydraulic and landing gear systems for Smiths Aerospace, formally part of the Dowty Group. We’re going through an office shuffle at the moment and a colleague of mine found a long lost photo of the offices he used to work in. A nice country house. Anyway, to cut a long story short, and I kid you not, the conversation ended with the comment “oh well, things are not what they used to be, old Sir George [Dowty] really knew how to look after his workforce” I suspect that he considered the mirth this caused a little OTT as I chuckled to myself all the way back to my desk!!
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It's been an interesting set of responses to my original post. Reflecting on all your posts each one has a bit of what I feel.
I got into flying having wanted to fly since a small boy, I still marvel at the beasts, just stand under the final approach at LHR, it's breathtaking.
There are days when I'm flying with another passionate aviator and we laugh and take the piss, still getting the job down in a downright professional manner, and enjoy a marvellous job that on its day is unrivalled.
Then I'll come across some little spineless rottweiler that's can quote 8.12.3.4a and thinks he's a clever little f**k. I despair.
And I'll get a bit down because I don't really fly aeroplanes anymore I manage them.
I suppose it's just changing and I think it's a little bit of a tragedy that my youngest son won't be able to enjoy what I have.
I got into flying having wanted to fly since a small boy, I still marvel at the beasts, just stand under the final approach at LHR, it's breathtaking.
There are days when I'm flying with another passionate aviator and we laugh and take the piss, still getting the job down in a downright professional manner, and enjoy a marvellous job that on its day is unrivalled.
Then I'll come across some little spineless rottweiler that's can quote 8.12.3.4a and thinks he's a clever little f**k. I despair.
And I'll get a bit down because I don't really fly aeroplanes anymore I manage them.
I suppose it's just changing and I think it's a little bit of a tragedy that my youngest son won't be able to enjoy what I have.
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Joy has nothing to do with it!
The romantic idea of being an airline captain, a kind of double-“O”-seven in fancy uniform surrounded by several drop-dead-gorgeous flight attendants, on exotic places, is believed to be far from being true, if ever has been so, and sincerely that’s not what attracts me, and a lot others, to this profession.
In my case I’ve been working since the age of 15 and I’ve had all sorts of jobs, from welder apprentice in heavy industry, industrial electrician, electronics engineer to current IT technical consultant, so airline transport pilot would be my logical next step, just because I find it one of the biggest challenges one can have professionally - coupled with the inherent and pretty obvious pleasure of flying.
I understand the reasons from a lot of the people here, who find themselves frustrated with their working conditions being eroded by the hour, and in my opinion they should fight hard for their jobs and conditions. But unless you guys team up and move to the same side, and I mean ALL of you, companies will try to get the cheaper way out of you. Think of these management persons as a pack of wolves, if you stick together they will not dare to attack, on the other hand, once isolated you’ll be eaten alive, one by one. This is valid for any profession, but pilots (like Gods) tend to be the most individual and selfish persons- “Unions are for miners, firemen and such”; just look what they accomplish by sticking together.
But this is the “political” part of the job, the one that it’s always bad in every way you might look at it. The practical part is where the joy resides. The operation of a 60 ton machine 3 times faster than the fastest Ferrari, full of pax, boxed sheep (or cats), mail and parcels, or whatever you put inside, and get all this to fly(!!) is far more interesting and mind challenging than the “thrill” of keeping a big enterprise network running smoothly.
I’m on my late 30’s, and I’ve been told that I am too old for even trying this line of work, so I won’t be going after your job, but thanks to PPRuNe I would know exactly what to expect from your profession, and probably wouldn’t be so disappointed as many of you are, because my expectations would be different, and I would have a great advantage: I’m not new to the bad management actions, the bellow-the-belt treatment, it has been common practice everywhere since immemorial times; you’re just not used to it, as it is new to the airline industry. And after all, we all are being “held hostage” to our deserved life style. So, fight for your rights, and have a great time flying those machines. Now, I’ll get my coat, and turn to the network traffic monitor. Wow.
Thanks for reading all this far.
GD&L
In my case I’ve been working since the age of 15 and I’ve had all sorts of jobs, from welder apprentice in heavy industry, industrial electrician, electronics engineer to current IT technical consultant, so airline transport pilot would be my logical next step, just because I find it one of the biggest challenges one can have professionally - coupled with the inherent and pretty obvious pleasure of flying.
I understand the reasons from a lot of the people here, who find themselves frustrated with their working conditions being eroded by the hour, and in my opinion they should fight hard for their jobs and conditions. But unless you guys team up and move to the same side, and I mean ALL of you, companies will try to get the cheaper way out of you. Think of these management persons as a pack of wolves, if you stick together they will not dare to attack, on the other hand, once isolated you’ll be eaten alive, one by one. This is valid for any profession, but pilots (like Gods) tend to be the most individual and selfish persons- “Unions are for miners, firemen and such”; just look what they accomplish by sticking together.
But this is the “political” part of the job, the one that it’s always bad in every way you might look at it. The practical part is where the joy resides. The operation of a 60 ton machine 3 times faster than the fastest Ferrari, full of pax, boxed sheep (or cats), mail and parcels, or whatever you put inside, and get all this to fly(!!) is far more interesting and mind challenging than the “thrill” of keeping a big enterprise network running smoothly.
I’m on my late 30’s, and I’ve been told that I am too old for even trying this line of work, so I won’t be going after your job, but thanks to PPRuNe I would know exactly what to expect from your profession, and probably wouldn’t be so disappointed as many of you are, because my expectations would be different, and I would have a great advantage: I’m not new to the bad management actions, the bellow-the-belt treatment, it has been common practice everywhere since immemorial times; you’re just not used to it, as it is new to the airline industry. And after all, we all are being “held hostage” to our deserved life style. So, fight for your rights, and have a great time flying those machines. Now, I’ll get my coat, and turn to the network traffic monitor. Wow.
Thanks for reading all this far.
GD&L
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My dad wanted me to be a doctor.
At the age of nine I thought it a splendid idea cos I could ask women to take their clothes off, (pretty outrageous behaviour in the 1950's).
Then I read Biggles, which was a terrible mistake career wise
The end result was much the same;
but I would have had more success as a doctor
At the age of nine I thought it a splendid idea cos I could ask women to take their clothes off, (pretty outrageous behaviour in the 1950's).
Then I read Biggles, which was a terrible mistake career wise
The end result was much the same;
but I would have had more success as a doctor
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I suppose I am a typical airplane fanatic.
My father was an instructor at Cranwell in WW2, and a pathfinder in Mosquitoes. As a kid after the war and as my father progressed up the ranks in an airline, we built and flew model aircraft together.
I daydreamed my way through school, designing and building model aircraft at the back of the classroom when I should have been studying. I just didn't see the need for school- all I ever wanted was to be a pilot. I soloed at 16, had my PPL at 17 , CPL at 19, and got a corporate job as co-pilot on an oil company G-159 Gulfstream 1 at 20.
I therefore consider myself qualified as a first class aviation nut.
I have flown in corporate, small commuter, medium commuter, and small international airline environments. I had 8 years of management and 8 years as a trainer, and even 6 years as a union man. All aspects have been enjoyable for the most part, but interspersed with some serious boredom, fear, frustration, and even despair at times.
I have encountered many superb people, and some supremely stupid, arrogant, and mean spirited ones too.
I have flown everything from small twins to large prop jobs(piston and turbine) and several jet types up to wide bodies.
(Loved them all, but the best were both Lockheed, L-188 Electra, and L-1011 Tri Star).
When I started flying, the ops manual was all in a 1 inch binder. I have just retired, and when I left there were 7 manuals none less than 3 inches thick and one or two much more. That alone says a lot.
The enjoyment level was probably at a maximum about 20 years ago when the reliability of the turbine took much of the worry out of operations. Since then there has been a creeping erosion of the purely flying component, and a "flight management" mode began to take over. Job satisfaction became managing a smooth and fuel efficient flight to destination.
Nevertheless, on a nice day at less busy airports it was still fun to punch out the computers and hand fly.
The real decline in working conditions started soon after de-regulation, when hungry start-ups jumped in and their crew were willing to work longer for less. Since then the downward pressure by the bean counters has been relentless as they play one off against the other. "Productivity" is an ever moving goalpost.
9/11 was the golden opportunity by the beanies to force down labour costs, and here we are.
The other aspect is that somehow the camaraderie has fallen off. It used to be automatic that after a long hard flight to some far-off place, the whole crew met for drinks and a meal, but that has become increasingly rare. Many can no longer afford it, but something has changed in how we all relate now.
Would I do it again? Possibly, but probably not in the airlines, and with some form of sideline for income insurance and to afford the little luxuries.
Despite my attempts to discourage him, my son is about to set off into pilot training, as to him it is the most exciting option. Although I feel that it may not be financially sensible, I understand. There are few things more alluring than the flowing lines of those aluminium seductresses.
in response to the PM. ZQA297/30 is(was?) "prune" intersection.
Nassau VOR(ZQA) 297 radial/30 dme.
My father was an instructor at Cranwell in WW2, and a pathfinder in Mosquitoes. As a kid after the war and as my father progressed up the ranks in an airline, we built and flew model aircraft together.
I daydreamed my way through school, designing and building model aircraft at the back of the classroom when I should have been studying. I just didn't see the need for school- all I ever wanted was to be a pilot. I soloed at 16, had my PPL at 17 , CPL at 19, and got a corporate job as co-pilot on an oil company G-159 Gulfstream 1 at 20.
I therefore consider myself qualified as a first class aviation nut.
I have flown in corporate, small commuter, medium commuter, and small international airline environments. I had 8 years of management and 8 years as a trainer, and even 6 years as a union man. All aspects have been enjoyable for the most part, but interspersed with some serious boredom, fear, frustration, and even despair at times.
I have encountered many superb people, and some supremely stupid, arrogant, and mean spirited ones too.
I have flown everything from small twins to large prop jobs(piston and turbine) and several jet types up to wide bodies.
(Loved them all, but the best were both Lockheed, L-188 Electra, and L-1011 Tri Star).
When I started flying, the ops manual was all in a 1 inch binder. I have just retired, and when I left there were 7 manuals none less than 3 inches thick and one or two much more. That alone says a lot.
The enjoyment level was probably at a maximum about 20 years ago when the reliability of the turbine took much of the worry out of operations. Since then there has been a creeping erosion of the purely flying component, and a "flight management" mode began to take over. Job satisfaction became managing a smooth and fuel efficient flight to destination.
Nevertheless, on a nice day at less busy airports it was still fun to punch out the computers and hand fly.
The real decline in working conditions started soon after de-regulation, when hungry start-ups jumped in and their crew were willing to work longer for less. Since then the downward pressure by the bean counters has been relentless as they play one off against the other. "Productivity" is an ever moving goalpost.
9/11 was the golden opportunity by the beanies to force down labour costs, and here we are.
The other aspect is that somehow the camaraderie has fallen off. It used to be automatic that after a long hard flight to some far-off place, the whole crew met for drinks and a meal, but that has become increasingly rare. Many can no longer afford it, but something has changed in how we all relate now.
Would I do it again? Possibly, but probably not in the airlines, and with some form of sideline for income insurance and to afford the little luxuries.
Despite my attempts to discourage him, my son is about to set off into pilot training, as to him it is the most exciting option. Although I feel that it may not be financially sensible, I understand. There are few things more alluring than the flowing lines of those aluminium seductresses.
in response to the PM. ZQA297/30 is(was?) "prune" intersection.
Nassau VOR(ZQA) 297 radial/30 dme.
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 30th Sep 2004 at 08:53.
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all I would ask is that you don't put the pilots of tomorrow off by the bad experiences of today.
I wish I had known some airline pilots before I joined the profession. A frank briefing on the issues would have left me better informed.
As it is I am tied into something that is increasingly untenable in terms of working practices and commercial pressure.
You need to be fully informed to make career choices and Pprune is a godsend for this.
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NIK NAK
If your son follows in your footsteps, he will surely enter the business with the same enthusiasm that you had when you joined and will see it as it is at his time of joining and judge it accordingly. After a few years when you are trying to tell him about the good old days he will probably be wondering how you could operate efficiently compared to his day!!!
I reckon this thread shows more people enjoying the job than not and I'm sure that almost all new entrants will too..
If your son follows in your footsteps, he will surely enter the business with the same enthusiasm that you had when you joined and will see it as it is at his time of joining and judge it accordingly. After a few years when you are trying to tell him about the good old days he will probably be wondering how you could operate efficiently compared to his day!!!
I reckon this thread shows more people enjoying the job than not and I'm sure that almost all new entrants will too..