Just the tip of the iceberg......
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Just the tip of the iceberg......
According to Speednews--
American, Continental, United, Northwest, Delta, US Airways, Mesa Air Group, National, America West & Air Tran are each announcing a minimum 20% decrease in flights and accelerated retirement of older aircraft types. Massive layoffs at each carrier.
Certainly not good news.
In addition...... "US President asked the Congress to develop a comprehensive assistance package for the US airline industry"..... (which is asking for an aid package totaling $24 billion).
Why should the tax-paying public be asked to contribute to the clearly overextended US airlines which have gone on a buying binge for shiny new aircraft and grossly overpaid pilots under newly negotiated union contracts? The stockholders should hold accountable the clearly inept managements of these airlines and show them the door with a firm kick with a size 12 boot.
In America, i'm afraid we have many "Swissairs".
American, Continental, United, Northwest, Delta, US Airways, Mesa Air Group, National, America West & Air Tran are each announcing a minimum 20% decrease in flights and accelerated retirement of older aircraft types. Massive layoffs at each carrier.
Certainly not good news.
In addition...... "US President asked the Congress to develop a comprehensive assistance package for the US airline industry"..... (which is asking for an aid package totaling $24 billion).
Why should the tax-paying public be asked to contribute to the clearly overextended US airlines which have gone on a buying binge for shiny new aircraft and grossly overpaid pilots under newly negotiated union contracts? The stockholders should hold accountable the clearly inept managements of these airlines and show them the door with a firm kick with a size 12 boot.
In America, i'm afraid we have many "Swissairs".
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It is a funny thing you know...when the family farms were dropping like flies, when trucking companies are dying like flies, when small businesses are going under in record numbers...I hear no outcry saying they need government intervention. The tragedy that struck the airlines as horrible as it is, is a cost of doing business. The financial loss to the airline industry will set them back but they will survive. The air traffic has been outstrippin the infrastructure in the United States for years. Any business that cannot survive a one week shutdown isn't being managed correctly in the first place. So much of the traffic hauled by airplanes could just as well go by surface transport if it still existed. Very unwise decisions were made by both business and government in the past that allowed our surface transport infrastructure to deteriorate to the point that in times of national emergency such as this, the nation becomes hamstrung. The short sighted Harvard School of Business concept of worrying about the next quarterly report and ignoring longterm strategic thinking in itself is going to create a national emergency one day. The old adage of live for today but plan for tomorrow holds here. Airline passengers have been near rebellion for years....late and delayed flights, missed connections, arrogant ticket pricing practices, excessively high seat pitch....and on and on. This slow down in air traffic will ultimately be a blessing if the airline management types can get their heads out of the sand long enough to see what is really going on.
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Pardon me, 411A, but are you aware that we had a terrorist attack last Tuesday with a loss of more than 5000 lives?
Are you aware that US service men and women are getting ready to put their lives on the line for the free world (and yes, you too)?
Are you aware that the whole air transport system and the CRAF (Civil Aircraft Reserve Fleet) is at stake here? And yes, I did step up to the plate and fly soldiers in and out during the Gulf war, voluntarily.
Did you know that when you applied for your FAA pilot licence you claimed to be a man of "good moral Character"?
And all you have to state is your pettyness and jealusy over the aviators that have made it further in life than you?
Shame on you!
Are you aware that US service men and women are getting ready to put their lives on the line for the free world (and yes, you too)?
Are you aware that the whole air transport system and the CRAF (Civil Aircraft Reserve Fleet) is at stake here? And yes, I did step up to the plate and fly soldiers in and out during the Gulf war, voluntarily.
Did you know that when you applied for your FAA pilot licence you claimed to be a man of "good moral Character"?
And all you have to state is your pettyness and jealusy over the aviators that have made it further in life than you?
Shame on you!
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aviator---
I am all too aware of the tragedies in the past week, but you have missed my point entirely. Airline managements in the USA have grossly mismanaged their companies for years (with a few exceptions)and have a LOT to be held accountable for. Braniff, Eastern, TWA.....the list goes on and on.
And let us not forget ALPA, always crying poor at contract negotiation time while at the same time stabbing many in the back...Eastern again comes to mind.
Oh, and by the way, I personally have done very well in 35 years of airline flying, worldwide
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
I am all too aware of the tragedies in the past week, but you have missed my point entirely. Airline managements in the USA have grossly mismanaged their companies for years (with a few exceptions)and have a LOT to be held accountable for. Braniff, Eastern, TWA.....the list goes on and on.
And let us not forget ALPA, always crying poor at contract negotiation time while at the same time stabbing many in the back...Eastern again comes to mind.
Oh, and by the way, I personally have done very well in 35 years of airline flying, worldwide
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
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To those who might reply to 411A - check around the forums - 411A frequenty posts insensitve topics and replies - a known troll without it seems any respect for the feelings of those that have suffered loss in this disaster. don't waste time trying to debate a point beacsue 411A only strirs things up.
digbat
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The US airlines are supposedly so vital to the national economy that their contract negotiations and operations are subjected to inspection by the US government even up to Presidential level. Their every move is discussed in DC and despite deregulation they are often prevented from following their preferred business plans "in the national interest".
Surely such a vital national asset is worthy of support in these unusual times. The question of past responsibility is not relevent. The question is what damage would be done to the US if several major airlines were forced to cease operation in the next few months?
You can always rely on 411 for a short sighted viewpoint. I bet he wears glasses one inch thick and walks into doors!!!
Surely such a vital national asset is worthy of support in these unusual times. The question of past responsibility is not relevent. The question is what damage would be done to the US if several major airlines were forced to cease operation in the next few months?
You can always rely on 411 for a short sighted viewpoint. I bet he wears glasses one inch thick and walks into doors!!!
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41, (if I may make so bold as to call you by your first name), I think it’s time someone said this to you in words of less than three syllables:
The vast majority of people on this site quite frequently (almost always?) ‘miss your (many) points entirely.”
Now where I come from, if the message isn’t getting through to the VAST MAJPRITY of those reading it, we tend to question whether it is the sender who is at fault rather than the many receivers.
Your well known and all too often quoted phobia regarding anyone occupying a driver’s seat in an aeroplane (sorry airplane) earning more than sweatshop rates has lead you deeply into the realms of bad taste in opening this thread. If you’ve “personally have done very well in 35 years of airline flying, worldwide”, why in the world do you feel this apparent compulsive need to try to ensure no one else does?
The vast majority of people on this site quite frequently (almost always?) ‘miss your (many) points entirely.”
Now where I come from, if the message isn’t getting through to the VAST MAJPRITY of those reading it, we tend to question whether it is the sender who is at fault rather than the many receivers.
Your well known and all too often quoted phobia regarding anyone occupying a driver’s seat in an aeroplane (sorry airplane) earning more than sweatshop rates has lead you deeply into the realms of bad taste in opening this thread. If you’ve “personally have done very well in 35 years of airline flying, worldwide”, why in the world do you feel this apparent compulsive need to try to ensure no one else does?
411A: Come on now. You somehow forgot to mention (or chose not to state) the well-known fact that US pilot unions at the major airlines, in more than a few cases, have given up anywhere from 15-40 (yes, forty, at TWA) percent of their gross salaries for three or more years. By such simplistic statements and excluding the historical truth about fluctuating salaries, you implied that pilot unions have no interest in saving their companies, as if they would never consider helping with the cash-flow problems.
Only laymen fail to realize that after a certain age, our companies often are our only careers, unlike most careers out there, and it is a well-known fact inside our industry that all US airline employee groups make considerable pay cuts when needed. But they don't always happen overnight. I remember when America West was rescued (at least to a large degree) by Arizona banks. And their employees' retirements consisted only of company stock (or a little bit in 401Ks?)! That must have been frightening for the older folks.
Drinking strong beer from Montreal or Europe and Ppruning don't mix very well.
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Only laymen fail to realize that after a certain age, our companies often are our only careers, unlike most careers out there, and it is a well-known fact inside our industry that all US airline employee groups make considerable pay cuts when needed. But they don't always happen overnight. I remember when America West was rescued (at least to a large degree) by Arizona banks. And their employees' retirements consisted only of company stock (or a little bit in 401Ks?)! That must have been frightening for the older folks.
Drinking strong beer from Montreal or Europe and Ppruning don't mix very well.
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Let me get this straight - government edicts instantaneously reduce hub capacity by 20%, airlines are suddenly have overcapacity, and that's airline management's fault?
And as for ALPA - those 8 ALPA/APA members aren't even in their graves yet. Ask their wives if they were "grossly overpaid."
And as for ALPA - those 8 ALPA/APA members aren't even in their graves yet. Ask their wives if they were "grossly overpaid."
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Yes WILEY, many on this site do not agree with my views because they have very short sighted views toward aviation in general and the airlines they work for in particular. Generally, their only concern is....how much can I squeeze out of the company while working the fewest days. And airline managements are determined to resist at every turn, and expect the Federal government to bail them out when times are tough, as they are now. And to make matters worse, these same airlines turn to the lowest bidder for security, a shameful situation.
Many pilots think that the airlines they work for are bottomless money pits. They will soon find out otherwise.
Many pilots think that the airlines they work for are bottomless money pits. They will soon find out otherwise.
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Huck--
The overcapacity in the US aircarrier industry has been apparent to those who have bothered to look, for some time. In addition, if just a small percentage of those excessive pilot salaries had been spent on more intense security in the first place, the incidents from September 11th would certainly not have happened. You get what you pay for, and in the security business, using the lowest bidder just does not cut the mustard.
Timber--
Quite the contrary, one of our customers has requested two additional aircraft. The first one leaves for heavy maintenance shortly.
The overcapacity in the US aircarrier industry has been apparent to those who have bothered to look, for some time. In addition, if just a small percentage of those excessive pilot salaries had been spent on more intense security in the first place, the incidents from September 11th would certainly not have happened. You get what you pay for, and in the security business, using the lowest bidder just does not cut the mustard.
Timber--
Quite the contrary, one of our customers has requested two additional aircraft. The first one leaves for heavy maintenance shortly.
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I feel sorry for pilots now after last week to be honest, those "golden days" of ground breaking pay increases are well and truly over now. The amount of money these airlines will now lose is staggering, AA's share price was down 42% after yesterdays trading.
I'm afraid that pilots salairies will be one of the first thing they look at in the massive cost cutting that will have to happen. In other words, it's a giant s**t sandwich and we'll all have to take a bite.
And remember, the most important thing to any airline has always been cash flow, even stopping flying for a day, hurts airline companies more then you'll ever know.
I'm afraid that pilots salairies will be one of the first thing they look at in the massive cost cutting that will have to happen. In other words, it's a giant s**t sandwich and we'll all have to take a bite.
And remember, the most important thing to any airline has always been cash flow, even stopping flying for a day, hurts airline companies more then you'll ever know.
Grandpa Aerotart
411a,
And just what form of airport security stops 10 essentially unarmed individuals that no Intelligence agency has EVER heard of getting on an airliner?
I flew with and old codger once who when he retired went into 'management' cause he had brown nosed the local natives whose airline it was. He then went on to(successfully) do his best to destroy the very terms and conditions he had enjoyed for '35 years'. You sound just like him !!!!
Chuck.
And just what form of airport security stops 10 essentially unarmed individuals that no Intelligence agency has EVER heard of getting on an airliner?
I flew with and old codger once who when he retired went into 'management' cause he had brown nosed the local natives whose airline it was. He then went on to(successfully) do his best to destroy the very terms and conditions he had enjoyed for '35 years'. You sound just like him !!!!
Chuck.
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411A
First of all, do you think the management, whom you agree are totally inept, should make the salaries they do?
At least the pilots perform their alloted tasks with some degree of effectiveness.
On a hypothetical ticket costing say $500, just how many dollars go to pay the pilots?
What percent is that?
How much do you tip at a restaurant, or perhaps you think waiters are greedy and overpaid, and are out to bust restaurants?
First of all, do you think the management, whom you agree are totally inept, should make the salaries they do?
At least the pilots perform their alloted tasks with some degree of effectiveness.
On a hypothetical ticket costing say $500, just how many dollars go to pay the pilots?
What percent is that?
How much do you tip at a restaurant, or perhaps you think waiters are greedy and overpaid, and are out to bust restaurants?
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411A
I could not agree more. The american government should do a little bit of wait and see here before investing a huge pile of money into the american airlines. I am not against government intervention where it is required, but it will be healthier in a long run for the aviation industry if the highly paid employees, pilots and management alike for example, to be part of it as well.
Let's all pull the banwagon together instead of having some of us only riding on it. We all agree it is a tragedy directly related to aviation, but why should everybody else in the US feel the pinch while the highly paid pilots across the US (and around the world as a matter of fact) could keep their wages intact. It will probably save jobs as well at the bottom of the seniority list. Too many flights, too many routes, too many shiny and brand new airplanes half empty, too many pilots in some cases (at Air Canada here for example it's a big joke, btw I am not with AC), too many lucrative contracts, and the list goes on and on.
I am afraid that some clocks will be reset to where they should be and it's good. Money has to come from all walks of life, and not only from the average taxpayers. You wanna bet that the airline industry will come out of this healthier in about a year from now if it is done rightly. Every thing is cycles in life. Surfing on top of the waves may have just come to an end abruptly.
Let me resume by saying that the US government should sit down and talk with managements and unions alike country wise before doing anything else.
Sorry guys.
I could not agree more. The american government should do a little bit of wait and see here before investing a huge pile of money into the american airlines. I am not against government intervention where it is required, but it will be healthier in a long run for the aviation industry if the highly paid employees, pilots and management alike for example, to be part of it as well.
Let's all pull the banwagon together instead of having some of us only riding on it. We all agree it is a tragedy directly related to aviation, but why should everybody else in the US feel the pinch while the highly paid pilots across the US (and around the world as a matter of fact) could keep their wages intact. It will probably save jobs as well at the bottom of the seniority list. Too many flights, too many routes, too many shiny and brand new airplanes half empty, too many pilots in some cases (at Air Canada here for example it's a big joke, btw I am not with AC), too many lucrative contracts, and the list goes on and on.
I am afraid that some clocks will be reset to where they should be and it's good. Money has to come from all walks of life, and not only from the average taxpayers. You wanna bet that the airline industry will come out of this healthier in about a year from now if it is done rightly. Every thing is cycles in life. Surfing on top of the waves may have just come to an end abruptly.
Let me resume by saying that the US government should sit down and talk with managements and unions alike country wise before doing anything else.
Sorry guys.
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So, 411A claims that sufficient security measures, paid for by "gross pilot salaries", could have prevented the tragedies in the USA. Interesting view 411A.
My opinion is that those are very contentious words indeed, 411A. Just as well we all have our anonymity.
Are your tri-motors real or "virtually-real"?
My opinion is that those are very contentious words indeed, 411A. Just as well we all have our anonymity.
Are your tri-motors real or "virtually-real"?
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411A If life is as simple as you make it out to be then we would all have your crystal balls. The history of many airlines over here in the USA is steeped in the sacrifices made by the employees. Airtran pilots have just agreed to a pay cut to save pilots jobs. More to follow. Your secular views are disturbing because you barely touch any major facts but you make sweeping statements. How very shallow. As far as being over paid, that's for the industry to decide. I had 8 flight deck collegues murdered during their job last week. When was the last time a doctor was hijacked in surgery and murdered? You seem to have little or no respect for your fellow aviators. Do you really consider the profession you where in for 35 years to be so anal. Go into a small hole where you belong and pray for forgiveness
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UAL just announced (Yahoo Aviation News) that it is returning to full schedule flying.
As to airlines' request for government bailouts: Obviously it doesn't cost anything to ask for money. Whether they'll get tax payer help is another story. I don't suppose that taxpayers would approve of giving carriers cash; maybe some tax relief at most.
Even before Sept 11th, most carriers suffered from overcapacity and bloated management salaries and bonuses, especially by the top dogs at USAir.
As to airlines' request for government bailouts: Obviously it doesn't cost anything to ask for money. Whether they'll get tax payer help is another story. I don't suppose that taxpayers would approve of giving carriers cash; maybe some tax relief at most.
Even before Sept 11th, most carriers suffered from overcapacity and bloated management salaries and bonuses, especially by the top dogs at USAir.