Ryanair pilots paying to keep their jobs ?
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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F/O's are on 55 euro a block hour. Assuming they are worked to within an inch of fatigue for 90 hours a month, 10 months of the year, they will earn, before tax and all the other expenses 49,500 euro which equates to £33,700. One expanding loco has just announced that their starting F/O salary is £40,800 and they include all the other 'perks' such as water, coffee, uniforms, medicals, licence renewals, hotac, transport, loss of licence insurance, death in service insurance, sim refreshers etc. Oh, and paid leave too!
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Don't post erroneous info, Outofsync, Ezy rosters are legally 7/2 and there's plenty of night flying. I have also heard (unsubstantiated, but true to form) that they are carrying out disciplinary action on a crew for not going into dicretion (done before, though I admit there may be more to it than meets the eye).
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Going back to AfricanSkies comments, applauded by some, I find his anti LCCs rant extraordinary. The world is moving on and flying is not and never again should be the preserve of the rich. The low costs have provided air travel for a much broader population,- excellent thing. They have also produced thousands of genuinely new jobs in an industry which has for years seriously needed to examine its costs, ways of working, approach to the market etc. They have also created tourism booms and their attendant jobs in cities which could never have dreamed of them a decade ago.They have forced the pace of long overdue change and ,while they may have undermined some very cosy arrangements,- which the customers paid for,- they have opened far more opportunities for staff and customers than they have undermined or closed. As employers in many respects they are good,- and in some very good,- and still make a life in aviation far more interesting, varied and rewarding than most other businesses. There is no such thing as the perfect job or the perfect company,- anywhere.
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While the low fares boom has certainly shaken up the industry, and in the process undoubtedly upset the senior captains in traditional airlines, it has presented many job opportunities and been beneficial to the industry as a whole.
Ryanair up until about 6 months ago was a very decent company to work for, offering a very good all round package and rewarding hard work very well. As this has package has been dismantled and terms & conditions effectively ripped to pieces, the package is now no longer very good, just simply average. Conditions have gone downhill as extensively discussed as well as the pilot body being subject to bullying from senior management.
Of course there is no such thing as the perfect company but all we are asking for in Ryanair is to be treated with the respect we deserve and that has been shown up until 6 months ago.
Ryanair up until about 6 months ago was a very decent company to work for, offering a very good all round package and rewarding hard work very well. As this has package has been dismantled and terms & conditions effectively ripped to pieces, the package is now no longer very good, just simply average. Conditions have gone downhill as extensively discussed as well as the pilot body being subject to bullying from senior management.
Of course there is no such thing as the perfect company but all we are asking for in Ryanair is to be treated with the respect we deserve and that has been shown up until 6 months ago.
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6 months ago
we must be working for two different companies,ryanair was never a good company to work for.just ask mr. duffy in dublin.you guys forget so easily,it is no wonder that in another 6 months we won't even realise that we are being screwed and we will line up for the next shafting.please get real!
i would like to know,now that there is no pension,where did our previous contributions go?
i would like to know,now that there is no pension,where did our previous contributions go?
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Ryan-Be-Fair Outlines 'benefits' of working for Ryanair
The truth in black and white, as we always knew it was, now confirmed by the ITF themselves.
http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/news/current_situation.htm
(extract...)
Pilots
“All I ask for is fair conditions and respect for the fact I’m a skilled individual and contribute hugely to their success and in return I get nothing.”
- Ryanair trainee pilot.
Generally speaking pilots are amongst the better paid personnel of Ryanair and we have a number of messages from pilots on our website saying they are happy with the job and work conditions. But we also have a number of messages from pilots who are clearly not happy with their working conditions and refer to the intimidation they have been subjected to if they join their respective unions. So there is obviously some disparity here.
Clearly some pilots are paid at the top of the salary scale whilst others are experiencing very different conditions. For trainee pilots their experience is very different. It has been reported to us that they have to pay for their own training which is a huge cost – as much as £60,000 in fees and no salary from Ryanair for the initial period of flying. Flying for shorter hours is not an option either so they are faced with the stressful combination of high debts and working long hours in order to hopefully qualify at some point in the future for a high salary, which is not guaranteed.
Average pay of course is not a good indicator of real pay rates. Sector pay in Ryanair makes up more than 50% of salary which means that pilots can fly up to 40% more hours than their major airline counterparts in order to take home the same pay packet. (Abn Amro report)
As one French pilot with a European major airline told us, “I guess that the majority of Ryanair Flight Crew would appreciate working for a major, but the contrary is not true!”.
...then read the items listed about cabin crew and ground handling crews...
...then read the items listed about cabin crew and ground handling crews...
http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/news/current_situation.htm
(extract...)
Pilots
“All I ask for is fair conditions and respect for the fact I’m a skilled individual and contribute hugely to their success and in return I get nothing.”
- Ryanair trainee pilot.
Generally speaking pilots are amongst the better paid personnel of Ryanair and we have a number of messages from pilots on our website saying they are happy with the job and work conditions. But we also have a number of messages from pilots who are clearly not happy with their working conditions and refer to the intimidation they have been subjected to if they join their respective unions. So there is obviously some disparity here.
Clearly some pilots are paid at the top of the salary scale whilst others are experiencing very different conditions. For trainee pilots their experience is very different. It has been reported to us that they have to pay for their own training which is a huge cost – as much as £60,000 in fees and no salary from Ryanair for the initial period of flying. Flying for shorter hours is not an option either so they are faced with the stressful combination of high debts and working long hours in order to hopefully qualify at some point in the future for a high salary, which is not guaranteed.
Average pay of course is not a good indicator of real pay rates. Sector pay in Ryanair makes up more than 50% of salary which means that pilots can fly up to 40% more hours than their major airline counterparts in order to take home the same pay packet. (Abn Amro report)
As one French pilot with a European major airline told us, “I guess that the majority of Ryanair Flight Crew would appreciate working for a major, but the contrary is not true!”.
...then read the items listed about cabin crew and ground handling crews...
...then read the items listed about cabin crew and ground handling crews...
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Mindthegap your posts are not right.
The pay for a FO in Ryanair is 65 minus 5 = 60 EUR on homebase and 65 - 5 + 20 = 80 on outbase for new (contract) pilots.
When you calculate pay please remember to deduct for spendings on expensive hotels all over Europe, transportation and own sponsored perdiems and SIM/Uniform.
Whats left is NOT A GOOD DEAL.
Actually in many countried its illegal to pay an employee this way. Go add on top of pay to make the employee pay for the airlines expenses such as the employee's hotel, transportation, perdiems etc.
Many IRS in Europe will NOT give a taxcut for the hotels etc. and will consider these 20 EUR an hour being pay, hence taxing it!
Ex.
If you work in an office and your boss gives you an extra 1000 EUR a month to pay for your use of telephone, buy IT equipment etc. etc. - you will be taxed of this add on!
The legal way is that the employer pays for this, and just pay the employee his/hers salary.
The reason they do it this way in Ryanair is that the 20 EUR per block hour is not enough to pay for a decent hotel, taxi and perdiems for the employee on outbases. So they give you a lousy 20 and make you pay your on your own. You end up sleeping in a car, toilet or at a 80 year old lady in Milan, taking the bus or hiking to work, grabbing a burger on the way - just to save your money. If you really want to feel good, you might go ahead and spend money on a real bed/breakfast... But you would never go to a real hotel where you could have a respectable stay.
WHAT A LOUSY DEAL!
The pay for a FO in Ryanair is 65 minus 5 = 60 EUR on homebase and 65 - 5 + 20 = 80 on outbase for new (contract) pilots.
When you calculate pay please remember to deduct for spendings on expensive hotels all over Europe, transportation and own sponsored perdiems and SIM/Uniform.
Whats left is NOT A GOOD DEAL.
Actually in many countried its illegal to pay an employee this way. Go add on top of pay to make the employee pay for the airlines expenses such as the employee's hotel, transportation, perdiems etc.
Many IRS in Europe will NOT give a taxcut for the hotels etc. and will consider these 20 EUR an hour being pay, hence taxing it!
Ex.
If you work in an office and your boss gives you an extra 1000 EUR a month to pay for your use of telephone, buy IT equipment etc. etc. - you will be taxed of this add on!
The legal way is that the employer pays for this, and just pay the employee his/hers salary.
The reason they do it this way in Ryanair is that the 20 EUR per block hour is not enough to pay for a decent hotel, taxi and perdiems for the employee on outbases. So they give you a lousy 20 and make you pay your on your own. You end up sleeping in a car, toilet or at a 80 year old lady in Milan, taking the bus or hiking to work, grabbing a burger on the way - just to save your money. If you really want to feel good, you might go ahead and spend money on a real bed/breakfast... But you would never go to a real hotel where you could have a respectable stay.
WHAT A LOUSY DEAL!
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@ Whippersnapper
No one flies 7/2 for easyJet. We are trialling 5-2 5-4 in LTN en EDI now and it seems to be going quite well. A vote will be made the beginning of next year. Some bumps still need to be sorted out but there is good hope they will do.
What exactly do you call night flying?
There was a night Athens at LTN but that one is going. Latest finish 00.40Z. (LTN base) is not too bad, especially with the new roster (it works out to be almost 5 days off!).
One more thing: no disciplinary action taken. The guy was genuinely fatigued from more reasons than just refusing to go into discretion. They let him fly the 3rd sector to an outstation and than swapped crews with guys positioning. Not ideal, he DOESN'T regret it. Just a Safe Operator! Too tired, don't fly!
Happens in any other company. We almost have no positioning at all.
At any rate it's sidetracking the thread (not your fault matey)
Just wanted to respond before guys/girls start thinking the wrong thing. It's genuinely starting to become a nice lowco to fly for. I def enjoy my flying now.
(This was not having a go
Stay Safe,
SZ
No one flies 7/2 for easyJet. We are trialling 5-2 5-4 in LTN en EDI now and it seems to be going quite well. A vote will be made the beginning of next year. Some bumps still need to be sorted out but there is good hope they will do.
What exactly do you call night flying?
There was a night Athens at LTN but that one is going. Latest finish 00.40Z. (LTN base) is not too bad, especially with the new roster (it works out to be almost 5 days off!).
One more thing: no disciplinary action taken. The guy was genuinely fatigued from more reasons than just refusing to go into discretion. They let him fly the 3rd sector to an outstation and than swapped crews with guys positioning. Not ideal, he DOESN'T regret it. Just a Safe Operator! Too tired, don't fly!
Happens in any other company. We almost have no positioning at all.
At any rate it's sidetracking the thread (not your fault matey)
Just wanted to respond before guys/girls start thinking the wrong thing. It's genuinely starting to become a nice lowco to fly for. I def enjoy my flying now.
(This was not having a go
Stay Safe,
SZ
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Shaka
So the guys flying six/three no longer have early starts/late finishes - is that right?
Yes I can see it was very good of easyjet to let the genuinely fatigued pilot'....fly the 3rd sector to an outstation' then swap with the crew who were dicked about by having to position out then operate back - just to make sure everybody gets equally shafted and helping to 'discourage' people from refusing discretion.
Yep they're still a great bunch to work for- really regret leaving- NOT!
So the guys flying six/three no longer have early starts/late finishes - is that right?
Yes I can see it was very good of easyjet to let the genuinely fatigued pilot'....fly the 3rd sector to an outstation' then swap with the crew who were dicked about by having to position out then operate back - just to make sure everybody gets equally shafted and helping to 'discourage' people from refusing discretion.
Yep they're still a great bunch to work for- really regret leaving- NOT!
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Mate I'm one of them that does early starts and late finishes.
The thing I'm hinting at though is that with the new system the number of 4 sector days has significantly been reduced. Roster stability has gone up dramatically and a good 5 working days on 3 days off has been devised. Potentially giving 2.5, sometimes 4.5 days.
Look all guys weren't happy with the situation, but you should know better. If you are too tired to fly the 4th leg then don't fly!
Okay the result wasn't too pretty, but this is what I call professionalism...
I don't know your personal situation and the Carmen rostering etc we had was awful but things seem to be getting better slowly....
I was the same as you and on the brink of leaving for greener pastures, but I can't deny the improvement
The thing I'm hinting at though is that with the new system the number of 4 sector days has significantly been reduced. Roster stability has gone up dramatically and a good 5 working days on 3 days off has been devised. Potentially giving 2.5, sometimes 4.5 days.
Look all guys weren't happy with the situation, but you should know better. If you are too tired to fly the 4th leg then don't fly!
Okay the result wasn't too pretty, but this is what I call professionalism...
I don't know your personal situation and the Carmen rostering etc we had was awful but things seem to be getting better slowly....
I was the same as you and on the brink of leaving for greener pastures, but I can't deny the improvement
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All of the Buzz Stansted pilots were offered contracts with a company called Crewlink (based in Dublin and up to now providing cabin crew to its main client Ryanair - draw your own conclusions) and that we would be contracted to provide our services to Ryanair.These are 3 year fixed term contracts, and the Buzz pilots were told that there would be no permanent jobs with Ryanair itself until the BALPA/TUPE issues had been resolved later on in the year. It is Ryanair's intention (so they say) to offer us all permanent positions once this has happened, although who knows what will happen if BALPA recognition becomes a reality. Approx 15 pilots declined the contract, and are due to leave when Buzz is wound up on 31st October. The conversion courses are being started from Monday onwards, so expect to see a few more new faces in the STN crewroom in the weeks and months to come.
As an aside, when Ryanair bought Buzz back in April 2003, we were all put on new contracts with the Ryanair standard 12 months probation period. Our new contracts specify another 12 months probation, and obviously if and when we get a full Ryanair contract then that will stipulate another 12 month probation period. This means that apart from a short period of approximately 5 months earlier this year,that we will have been on probation (and therefore the company can get rid of us for just about any reason by giving us a week's notice) from April 2003 until sometime in 2006 !!!
As an aside, when Ryanair bought Buzz back in April 2003, we were all put on new contracts with the Ryanair standard 12 months probation period. Our new contracts specify another 12 months probation, and obviously if and when we get a full Ryanair contract then that will stipulate another 12 month probation period. This means that apart from a short period of approximately 5 months earlier this year,that we will have been on probation (and therefore the company can get rid of us for just about any reason by giving us a week's notice) from April 2003 until sometime in 2006 !!!
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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"Chickens" You have to decide if you are "Battery" or "Free Range". The problem with battery hens is that they have a habit of pecking each other so they have to be de-beaked. I could take the analogy further.
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Sky9
You are right...there are plenty of others around working their way up the pecking order...and there are plenty who rather not join in
But facing this intimidation could mean becoming free-range...not de-beaked...
And if it's gonna end up that way eitherway...apparently...then why not take a stand when we have nothing to loose?
You are right...there are plenty of others around working their way up the pecking order...and there are plenty who rather not join in
But facing this intimidation could mean becoming free-range...not de-beaked...
And if it's gonna end up that way eitherway...apparently...then why not take a stand when we have nothing to loose?
