Pilot SHORTAGE reduces experince level requirement for jobs.
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A 411
As you have stated, I have also seen some low hour F/O doing just fine as you did, as long as all is pretty standard.
As soon as you get out of the standard profiles the low hour F/O can get lost very quickly.
Usually you can see it happening miles from touchdown. The fact that the B 707 was a conventional plane as opposed to the nowadays FMC equipped acft is to a certain extend to the disadvantage of the pilots being trained today.
On a two man cockpit long haul, fatigue can be a serious factor and you really have to have a lot of hours under your belt to be able to anticipate.
As Boeing has stated when they introduced the B 777 around 1995. “This aircraft needs a crew with very high experience” I think that Malaysian Airlines have just proved that in Zurich.
I think that today there is truly a shortage of pilots with 6 to 7000 hrs command.
Cheers
As you have stated, I have also seen some low hour F/O doing just fine as you did, as long as all is pretty standard.
As soon as you get out of the standard profiles the low hour F/O can get lost very quickly.
Usually you can see it happening miles from touchdown. The fact that the B 707 was a conventional plane as opposed to the nowadays FMC equipped acft is to a certain extend to the disadvantage of the pilots being trained today.
On a two man cockpit long haul, fatigue can be a serious factor and you really have to have a lot of hours under your belt to be able to anticipate.
As Boeing has stated when they introduced the B 777 around 1995. “This aircraft needs a crew with very high experience” I think that Malaysian Airlines have just proved that in Zurich.
I think that today there is truly a shortage of pilots with 6 to 7000 hrs command.
Cheers
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“This aircraft needs a crew with very high experience” I think that Malaysian Airlines have just proved that in Zurich.
Sounds strange to me! All I ever heard about the 777 is that it’s easy as hell to fly. Also that Boeing would make such a degrading statement about its own aircraft. Here’s our new, modern and technically advanced 777…. But you better put a very experienced crew behind the controls, because she’s a nightmare to handle???
And I think you jump to conclusion about what caused the tailstrike to happen. Just because the FO was PF and that the rumour tells us that it was a “training flight”, doesn’t necessarily mean that it was the FO’s fault. Let’s wait for the report before we judge!
About the “confused low-hours FO’s”, I would just like to say that I don’t think it’s necessarily due to the low hours. It’s a totally new environment when you step into a flight deck of an “airliner” for the first time, regardless if you have 300 or 3000 h general aviation flying. You might be better at handling an airplane if you have flown 3000 h on small SE or ME at a remote airport lifting skydivers, but you will not for that matter be better prepared for an approach at a busy airport with a million procedures, STAR’s and traffic. The FO’s must get their experience somewhere! If it’s in a turbo-prop or a 777 makes less difference than who is sitting in the right seat. If the capt. Is there to help or to explain that they are inadequate… now that makes difference!
Sounds strange to me! All I ever heard about the 777 is that it’s easy as hell to fly. Also that Boeing would make such a degrading statement about its own aircraft. Here’s our new, modern and technically advanced 777…. But you better put a very experienced crew behind the controls, because she’s a nightmare to handle???
And I think you jump to conclusion about what caused the tailstrike to happen. Just because the FO was PF and that the rumour tells us that it was a “training flight”, doesn’t necessarily mean that it was the FO’s fault. Let’s wait for the report before we judge!
About the “confused low-hours FO’s”, I would just like to say that I don’t think it’s necessarily due to the low hours. It’s a totally new environment when you step into a flight deck of an “airliner” for the first time, regardless if you have 300 or 3000 h general aviation flying. You might be better at handling an airplane if you have flown 3000 h on small SE or ME at a remote airport lifting skydivers, but you will not for that matter be better prepared for an approach at a busy airport with a million procedures, STAR’s and traffic. The FO’s must get their experience somewhere! If it’s in a turbo-prop or a 777 makes less difference than who is sitting in the right seat. If the capt. Is there to help or to explain that they are inadequate… now that makes difference!
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Sounds strange to me! All I ever heard about the 777 is that it’s easy as hell to fly. Also that Boeing would make such a degrading statement about its own aircraft. Here’s our new, modern and technically advanced 777…. But you better put a very experienced crew behind the controls, because she’s a nightmare to handle???
1. The statement I made comes straight out a published Boeing document.
2. Never did I state that the F/O was at fault in the ZRH incident, the tread is merely about shortage of experianced crew, could also be captains. So calm down
Greetings
I would like to add that in training some airlines stick to the real minimum basic things and other bring you out of the envelope on purpose during an extensive, long and expensive training. They actually show you the limits in order to build confidence and knowledge.
It is not pleasant to experience this kind of things during normal operations on a two pilot wide body after 8, 9 hours of duty.
In the end it’s all about psychomotor capabilities, you have it or you don’t it may be improved by training but never acquired. You can not turn a donkey into a racehorse.
Props are for boats!
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Kaptain M,
I have " Air Jamaica" . It was a disaster! Aircraft Overruns ( landing on shorter parallel runways, Tail strikes, and the list goes on) , certain trainees being offcoursed because of no progression. Allthough some made it through relatively unscathed. The resultant action had the Airline increase its minimums to 750 HRS after increased pressure from the Governing Authority. But then this may as 411a suggest be a factor of bad training than general experience and ability.
Sheep
P.S. Ill sign on to Marakech. Just need the type and Ill be there tommorrow.
However in my humble experience, I haven't previously heard of a major employer hiring 250 hour total time pilots straight into the right seat of a 2 crew jet transport aircraft.
Sheep
P.S. Ill sign on to Marakech. Just need the type and Ill be there tommorrow.
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So, Kaptain M, you have never heard of BA, Britannia, British Midland (now BMI), Monarch, Airtours (Mytravel), Air 2000, Monarch, Excel, easyJet , Ryanair or Astreus (formerly British World). All use currently, or have used in the past decade, cadets of either their own scheme or through facilities like CTC.
Experience is important, but a lot of ground can be made for up with good training and decent skippers who know when to play out the leash and when to tighten it back in, so that the new FOs can learn to think for themselves without drastic consequences if they get it wrong.
Experience is important, but a lot of ground can be made for up with good training and decent skippers who know when to play out the leash and when to tighten it back in, so that the new FOs can learn to think for themselves without drastic consequences if they get it wrong.
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Whippersnapper
I agree with you if you mean that this is done on a short haul narrow body.
I do believe that flying relatively short sectors is THE way to learn the trade, but would argue that that is not the case on the long haul error correction takes far more skill on a wide body than on a narrow one.
I agree with you if you mean that this is done on a short haul narrow body.
I do believe that flying relatively short sectors is THE way to learn the trade, but would argue that that is not the case on the long haul error correction takes far more skill on a wide body than on a narrow one.
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studi - As 411A mentioned, there's a huge difference between getting a frozen ATPL according to minimum legal requirements or doing two years of full time intensive training in a course specially designed to fly an airliner in a multi crew cockpit.
)
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IMHO a a pilot shortage is slowly develloping in the ´less desirable´ locations of our little planet like Morocco. Recently was asked if I was interested in a BBJ job in Saudi Arabie without meeting the min requirements by a long shot. I turned it down as I´m not really interested to literally lose my head. For more info about this job, send me a PM.
But I´m still interested in any Caribbean based BBJ job, so if anyone has more info...LET ME KNOW!!!
Me thinks it´s too early to start speaking of a real "pilot shortage" but there is finally some movement in the market.
But I´m still interested in any Caribbean based BBJ job, so if anyone has more info...LET ME KNOW!!!
Me thinks it´s too early to start speaking of a real "pilot shortage" but there is finally some movement in the market.
My company has a policy of hiring young men and women with a CPL and around 300 - 400 hours.
I have been training them for five years or so and it has been a very positive experience. They come with no baggage like "we did it this way in BA/Danair etc" and they stick to SOPs incredibly well.
It has just been my great pleasure to upgrade two of them to command recently.
I have been training them for five years or so and it has been a very positive experience. They come with no baggage like "we did it this way in BA/Danair etc" and they stick to SOPs incredibly well.
It has just been my great pleasure to upgrade two of them to command recently.
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SOPs
If you think SOPs can save your ass when push comes to shove then you need to consider your own credential as an instructor. Swiss air crash and many other incidents followed the SOPs, look what happened.
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CAP 56 ,would you care to enlighten us on that bit about a wide body being more difficult to sort out than a narrow body.
WTF??
Land the glareshield safely and the bit behind usually follows along nicely, regardless of its width.
WTF??
Land the glareshield safely and the bit behind usually follows along nicely, regardless of its width.
Joyce Tick:
Having just got back from my latest outing, I wanted to respond to your attack on Cargo Boy on the "Demotion" thread.
Sadly, I note that your deprecating posting has been removed - I presume by you?
With a handle like "Joyce Tick" and, having looked at your completely NON-PROFILE, I can only assume that you are a "non-professional pilot" and that you `are more likely to be an 84 year-old retired ramp tramp based in Frobisher just looking for a bit of reaction.
Certainly you have no idea what good fun and reward the freight business is. I gave up passengers 20 years ago (have you ever succeeded in getting 380 passengers on board on time?).
I fly when it is quiet and usually get direct routings from Maastricht, such as "Direct Helsinki", I get 14 days off a month and my salary is in the "3-figures bracket" with a final salary scheme. My flying hours for the year are around 350 - 400 hours. I do not miss the the 500 hours extra that YOU are doing while I am relaxing on the beach!
Incidentally, our lady pilots love the lifestyle too.
Having just got back from my latest outing, I wanted to respond to your attack on Cargo Boy on the "Demotion" thread.
Sadly, I note that your deprecating posting has been removed - I presume by you?
With a handle like "Joyce Tick" and, having looked at your completely NON-PROFILE, I can only assume that you are a "non-professional pilot" and that you `are more likely to be an 84 year-old retired ramp tramp based in Frobisher just looking for a bit of reaction.
Certainly you have no idea what good fun and reward the freight business is. I gave up passengers 20 years ago (have you ever succeeded in getting 380 passengers on board on time?).
I fly when it is quiet and usually get direct routings from Maastricht, such as "Direct Helsinki", I get 14 days off a month and my salary is in the "3-figures bracket" with a final salary scheme. My flying hours for the year are around 350 - 400 hours. I do not miss the the 500 hours extra that YOU are doing while I am relaxing on the beach!
Incidentally, our lady pilots love the lifestyle too.
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HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD
It’s called inertia and needs a lot more anticipation, definitely when you are out of the standard profile when things really go very fast.
It should not happen but every chap with some hours knows that it does, sometimes you don’t have a choice. Best practice on a narrow body until you know from miles ahead what is going to happen next and how you will solve it.
Cheers.
It’s called inertia and needs a lot more anticipation, definitely when you are out of the standard profile when things really go very fast.
It should not happen but every chap with some hours knows that it does, sometimes you don’t have a choice. Best practice on a narrow body until you know from miles ahead what is going to happen next and how you will solve it.
Cheers.
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studi ,
The Swiss air crash was due to SOP fixation, the right answer was to get the crate back on the ground asap and not float around doing check lists until the aircraft becomes un flyable!
I appreciate that i have the benefit of hind sight but in a similar situation i would have landed asap even if it ment an overweight landing!
I always brief my F/o's that in the event of fire we will land asap regardless of a/c weight!
The Swiss air crash was due to SOP fixation, the right answer was to get the crate back on the ground asap and not float around doing check lists until the aircraft becomes un flyable!
I appreciate that i have the benefit of hind sight but in a similar situation i would have landed asap even if it ment an overweight landing!
I always brief my F/o's that in the event of fire we will land asap regardless of a/c weight!
Loopy:
I see that you are a "West African mechanic". Do not decry young pilots for, if they are trained properly and have good resources, they will turn out well.
I think you would do well to go to the "Now There Was an Aviator" forum and read my bit on there. Have you ever had to sit there for 13 hours and 30 minutes knowing that any other slight problem could put you outside of where you are at the moment for NONE of the SOPs etc have worked and flying the aeroplane is pretty damned near impossible?
That is a long time to have to have a problem!
We recently had a problem where a new captain and a young F/O started off with an engine failure - followed by an electrical failure right down to the battery (at night).
They exhausted the QRH etc and got nowhere. Unknown to them there was a DOUBLE fault in the logic of the electrical system.
Although they were young and relatively inexperienced
and having exhausted all of the checklists, they went back to basics and managed to restore AC power before landing successfully.
I see that you are a "West African mechanic". Do not decry young pilots for, if they are trained properly and have good resources, they will turn out well.
I think you would do well to go to the "Now There Was an Aviator" forum and read my bit on there. Have you ever had to sit there for 13 hours and 30 minutes knowing that any other slight problem could put you outside of where you are at the moment for NONE of the SOPs etc have worked and flying the aeroplane is pretty damned near impossible?
That is a long time to have to have a problem!
We recently had a problem where a new captain and a young F/O started off with an engine failure - followed by an electrical failure right down to the battery (at night).
They exhausted the QRH etc and got nowhere. Unknown to them there was a DOUBLE fault in the logic of the electrical system.
Although they were young and relatively inexperienced
and having exhausted all of the checklists, they went back to basics and managed to restore AC power before landing successfully.
Just another number
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Kaptin M
BA have been putting 250 hour cadets into the RHS for over 40 years. Most of the cadets who joined in the 60's have now finished their careers, having spent 33 to 35 years in the airline. Perhaps it's not such a bad idea after all.
Airclues
However in my humble experience, I haven't previously heard of a major employer hiring 250 hour total time pilots straight into the right seat of a 2 crew jet transport aircraft.
Airclues
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I am new to this forum. This is my first post so please forgive me if I sound naive.
WHAT pilot shortage??????? What companies are hirring CPL's with 300 - 400 hrs total?????.
I have a JAA CPL, ATPL(frozen), live in europe, TT 2000, 1150 on twin turboprop, E110 and after some 30 - 40 applications in all parts of the world and a registration at all recruiting agencys open for business, stil unable to land any more than a kind reply of NO's.
It seems you need a rating on 737 or A320 to land a job and then it dosn't matter what your hrs. count is.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
WHAT pilot shortage??????? What companies are hirring CPL's with 300 - 400 hrs total?????.
I have a JAA CPL, ATPL(frozen), live in europe, TT 2000, 1150 on twin turboprop, E110 and after some 30 - 40 applications in all parts of the world and a registration at all recruiting agencys open for business, stil unable to land any more than a kind reply of NO's.
It seems you need a rating on 737 or A320 to land a job and then it dosn't matter what your hrs. count is.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
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Studi ; Of course this full time intensive training leaves them with a Multi Engine IR for Multipilot aircraft, absolutly not allowed to fly planes all by themselves like the demanding Single Engine Instrument planes (there is a separate JAA SEL/IR license needed for that stuff
Cool Mod
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In the late 70's and early 80's I took 17 Hamble trained pilots from BA because they could not use them at that time. All had no more than 253hrs TT. I was not using jet engined aircraft but had BA had the 'room' for them they would have occupied the RHS. With me they became instant Captains. Deservedly so - since all the Hamble trained pilots I ever knew were the cream. I think ALL of those pilots are still employed with BA. Two are training Captains with Virgin.
As an airline owner/operator I consider that if someone has 250hrs and a (F)ATPL they are good enough to get RHS.
Monarch were doing it for years too, might still be doing it, from the guys who came out of Oxford. In fact there are hundreds of examples!
As an airline owner/operator I consider that if someone has 250hrs and a (F)ATPL they are good enough to get RHS.
Monarch were doing it for years too, might still be doing it, from the guys who came out of Oxford. In fact there are hundreds of examples!