cabin crew ordered to drive 150miles
Well unless the rules have changed the time spent (self) positioning would count as part of the Flight Duty Period, assuming flying duty was to follow at the end of the road journey.
I suppose it would also depend on the contract between the company and the employee as to whether the company can "order" a crew member to self position by road.
In the past some companies have treated self positioning as a sector the purpose of max FDP allowed etc.
There is also an insurance aspect as you are not using your car for "social, domestic and pleasure" and therefore in all probability you won't be covered on your own insurance in the event of a claim.
My own view is that crew members should not be required to drive themselves prior to duty since road conditions these days in the UK are not conducice to one arriving in the right frame of mind prior to going on duty. The company ought to provide taxis, etc. but I aware that some companies do expect their crews to self position from time to time.
I also imagine that it is the case that having landed back at said airport the crew member then has to drive back home/base again at a time when they may not be in a fit state to drive a motor car as a result of a (lengthy) duty day. I know at least two of my colleagues who have woken up in hospital after they have dropped off to sleep at the wheel although they both lived relatively close to the airport - not very good economy for the company if they are off sick as a result!
I suppose it would also depend on the contract between the company and the employee as to whether the company can "order" a crew member to self position by road.
In the past some companies have treated self positioning as a sector the purpose of max FDP allowed etc.
There is also an insurance aspect as you are not using your car for "social, domestic and pleasure" and therefore in all probability you won't be covered on your own insurance in the event of a claim.
My own view is that crew members should not be required to drive themselves prior to duty since road conditions these days in the UK are not conducice to one arriving in the right frame of mind prior to going on duty. The company ought to provide taxis, etc. but I aware that some companies do expect their crews to self position from time to time.
I also imagine that it is the case that having landed back at said airport the crew member then has to drive back home/base again at a time when they may not be in a fit state to drive a motor car as a result of a (lengthy) duty day. I know at least two of my colleagues who have woken up in hospital after they have dropped off to sleep at the wheel although they both lived relatively close to the airport - not very good economy for the company if they are off sick as a result!
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cabin crew ordered to drive 150 miles
thanks fireflybob, my own company do not allow female cabin crew members to drive on their own other than to the home base.
I assumed that was the norm.
I assumed that was the norm.
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If I were the company management, would provide a taxi/limo for the longer travel distances, as a usual course.
Having said this, if this was a one off scenario, what's the beef?
If a flight was to have been delayed if said CC member did not comply, most company management would ge highly agitated if the employee stood down, refusing to travel.
This might result in a 'don't come Monday' letter.
There must be plenty at the HR door wanting a job.
Having said this, if this was a one off scenario, what's the beef?
If a flight was to have been delayed if said CC member did not comply, most company management would ge highly agitated if the employee stood down, refusing to travel.
This might result in a 'don't come Monday' letter.
There must be plenty at the HR door wanting a job.
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Hi all,
Also, there have been instances where the return flight, now operating to schedule, lands at your home base!
Then you have to find your way back to get your car!!
Cheers
Also, there have been instances where the return flight, now operating to schedule, lands at your home base!
Then you have to find your way back to get your car!!
Cheers
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Rubbish,
companies cannot and would not 'make' anyone drive anywhere but your home base before a duty, sounds like abit of 'spin' by the individual concerned, probably volunteered their services and got paid handsomely for it.
companies cannot and would not 'make' anyone drive anywhere but your home base before a duty, sounds like abit of 'spin' by the individual concerned, probably volunteered their services and got paid handsomely for it.
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Took a 4 hour train ride early last week to position for a flight. It wasn't the original plan, but as 411A mentioned, one-off (unforseen, I take that to mean) situations occasionaly happen.
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"toon"
Sorry, but you are completely wrong here. Our airline and several others in the UK require self-positioning before flights, to other UK airports. This is usually by hire car and can be up to two and a half hours per person available to drive. We do not have a choice about this.
Although it does count as a sector, driving across the country in rush hour leaves me a lot more tired and stressed than two hours flying in lousy weather!
The CAA SRG recently looked into pre-flight driving and slashed our company limit - which had previously been 4 hours!
Unfortunately they still place no limit at all on post-flight driving - perhaps the most dangerous part of the working day.
Rubbish, companies cannot and would not 'make' anyone drive anywhere but your home base before a duty,
Although it does count as a sector, driving across the country in rush hour leaves me a lot more tired and stressed than two hours flying in lousy weather!
The CAA SRG recently looked into pre-flight driving and slashed our company limit - which had previously been 4 hours!
Unfortunately they still place no limit at all on post-flight driving - perhaps the most dangerous part of the working day.
Just a numbered other
Unfortunately they still place no limit at all on post-flight driving - perhaps the most dangerous part of the working day.
In our company, and I beleive this is a direct crib from the ANO, positioning is defined as: The practice of transferring crews from place to place as passengers in surface or air transport at the behest of the company.
No mention of driving oneself.
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My company regularly uses self-drive hire cars; in theory either flight deck or cabin crew can request a taxi instead if they are tired. However, any cabin crew who actually do request taxis can expect a dressing down from crewing, followed by a summons into the office for threats of dismissal from their manager. Totally against the company ops manual, but it happens...
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To answer the original question, unfortunately there is nothing in the rules to prevent it. One company that I flew for, possibly the same one as jafo, thought nothing of expecting a crew to position by hire car from the south of England to Manchester and then operate, or do the same journey after a tiring duty day. I was once on standby at Nantes and operations called, suggesting that my crew position by hire car to Nice and then operate. I declined.
It's legal, it's cheap and it's stupid - a microcosm of today's airline ethos.
It's legal, it's cheap and it's stupid - a microcosm of today's airline ethos.
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I take it that we are refering to dear old EAL!,
When I worked for them in the early 1-11 days, they thought nothing of making you drive from Manchester to Stansted & then operate a double Ryanair subcharter. I think I spent more time on the road than in the air with them.....dreadful days!!
Oh, another of their favourites was to move your base. One month you were LGW then suddenly you were STN based, with hardly any warning given or relocation assistance..... A case of like it or get out!!, which was the reaction we got from Mr Stoddard.
Interesting to see that things haven't changed much!....can't believe this outfit still operates.
When I worked for them in the early 1-11 days, they thought nothing of making you drive from Manchester to Stansted & then operate a double Ryanair subcharter. I think I spent more time on the road than in the air with them.....dreadful days!!
Oh, another of their favourites was to move your base. One month you were LGW then suddenly you were STN based, with hardly any warning given or relocation assistance..... A case of like it or get out!!, which was the reaction we got from Mr Stoddard.
Interesting to see that things haven't changed much!....can't believe this outfit still operates.
Well then perhaps it's about time this practice was made illegal!
Yes there is a question of degree and sometimes there can be unique occasions where you might agree to self position but not on a regular basis - is this in the spirit of CAP371? Were the rules drawn up with the expectations that crews would self position?
Also as an SLF I would be very unhappy with any crew members state if they had just had to conduct a car journey by road over long distances prior to duty.
Can't see any objection to train travel though - assuming you can get a seat I cant think of a better or safer way to get to your departure point other than flying that is!
Yes there is a question of degree and sometimes there can be unique occasions where you might agree to self position but not on a regular basis - is this in the spirit of CAP371? Were the rules drawn up with the expectations that crews would self position?
Also as an SLF I would be very unhappy with any crew members state if they had just had to conduct a car journey by road over long distances prior to duty.
Can't see any objection to train travel though - assuming you can get a seat I cant think of a better or safer way to get to your departure point other than flying that is!
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Fireflybob,
Wouldn't object to trains either, once they get them running on time and not using a 'replacement bus service' as they are round my way
Extended post-flight driving should be illegal. It isn't, but will only become so once fatalities occur. This would be followed by extensive news coverage, blame on the aviation industry in general, and those responsible taking no blame at all.
Wouldn't object to trains either, once they get them running on time and not using a 'replacement bus service' as they are round my way
Extended post-flight driving should be illegal. It isn't, but will only become so once fatalities occur. This would be followed by extensive news coverage, blame on the aviation industry in general, and those responsible taking no blame at all.
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jafo33, yes sorry agree with you, should have made myself clear, i read the original post as though you had to do it in your own car ! in which case mine would just 'break down' when it suited me, but a mate at thomas cook used to have to self-position in a hire car, quite ridiculous though, just get 'stuck in traffic' now and then !
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My best day with EAL started with a call when I was at home on standby. "We've got a problem, can you hire car to Stansted and call us when you get there?" So I met the FO at Gatwick, we picked up the car and drove to STN. We checked in at the crewrooom to be told "Change of plan, can you drive on up to Manchester and do the afternoon Palma?" Off we went. Three hours later we checked in at Servisair MAN. "Great", says Ops, "the inbound aircraft is on finals."
We walk out to crew change, only to find that the aeroplane is a "standard" One-Eleven and at that time my FO and I were only cleared to fly the "super" (odd CAA rule). We phoned Ops who were terribly apologetic. They then had to pull in a MAN crew from their day off to fly the charter.
We climbed back into our car and drove back to Gatwick. Halcyon days.
We walk out to crew change, only to find that the aeroplane is a "standard" One-Eleven and at that time my FO and I were only cleared to fly the "super" (odd CAA rule). We phoned Ops who were terribly apologetic. They then had to pull in a MAN crew from their day off to fly the charter.
We climbed back into our car and drove back to Gatwick. Halcyon days.
"They then had to call a MAN crew from day off to fly the charter"
Do some people still agree to work on days off? Days off should be sacrosanct otherwise we would have no sort of home life at all.
I have NEVER and will NOT work on a day off.
Do some people still agree to work on days off? Days off should be sacrosanct otherwise we would have no sort of home life at all.
I have NEVER and will NOT work on a day off.
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"Extended post-flight driving should be illegal. It isn't, but will only become so once fatalities occur."
The following document gives a bit of a pointer.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf
Have a read of Page 5.
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Saskatoon
We have a self drive policy at our company with the rider that if you have had a hard day they will provide a taxi, we self drive either hire cars or own car with a mileage refund, which has just been increased to almost the IR limit. They funny thing I found in our ops manual the other day was that if you lived a long way from your base ie more than an hours drive they recognised that this would be fatiguing so encouraged you to overnight closer to base, but they don't have a problem with you driveing three or more hours before or after a 4 sector day.
You can draw your own conclusions as to what sort of management we have.
We have a self drive policy at our company with the rider that if you have had a hard day they will provide a taxi, we self drive either hire cars or own car with a mileage refund, which has just been increased to almost the IR limit. They funny thing I found in our ops manual the other day was that if you lived a long way from your base ie more than an hours drive they recognised that this would be fatiguing so encouraged you to overnight closer to base, but they don't have a problem with you driveing three or more hours before or after a 4 sector day.
You can draw your own conclusions as to what sort of management we have.