cabin crew ordered to drive 150miles
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In the UK everything you do at work is covered by the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974. Therefore self-positioning would come under those rules. A key part of that legislation is that you are responsible to yourself and your colleagues for safety at work. Therefore whether it’s you on your own, or you driving colleagues, a decision to drive when fatigued puts you in the wrong, not your employer. Knowing this, you can then decide whether management pressure (or a queue at the HR door) makes you want to risk death or serious injury, and the further implications with your colleagues.
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It would be funny if the said crew were ordered to self position by hire car, only to find out that none of the said crew have driving licenses.
Personally, I'd rather hop on the train, and make them wait, rather than risk life and limb fighting it out with the lorries on a three lane highway with one eye shut...
Personally, I'd rather hop on the train, and make them wait, rather than risk life and limb fighting it out with the lorries on a three lane highway with one eye shut...
Join Date: May 2004
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a decision to drive when fatigued puts you in the wrong, not your employer.
I'm not saying that I agree with it completely as I don't feel that employers can or should be expected to lead adult employees by the hand with everything they do - they have to accept responsibility for their own actions - but the legal fact is that the employer bears the responsibility.
This is being pushed to the extreme in certain areas; in the USA an employer was recently found to be responsible for an employee drunk driving home from a work sponsored social event, outside normal working hours. How long do UK cases take to follow those in the US???
Also, on the subject of hire cars, the employer has further duties under the Provison and Use of Work Equipment Regulations - if the car was in any way defective the employer would be responsible, as well as the hire car company.
Now I\'m starting to lose the will to live.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Anyone driving their own car as part of their duty period, ie. for your own or your employers business, had better check their insurance policy. Most people only have 'social, domestic or plesure' limitation in their policies. If you are asked to drive from your home base to another base to operate, whether for one flight or for a period of sveral days, you are operating your car for business purposes and your own insurance probably does not cover you.
Also, if using a hire car, make sure that the insurance covers you when driving on behalf of the company. Most policies, again, do not cover you. Your employer is duty bound to have in place a policy that covers you if you do ANY driving on behalf of the company, whether your own car or a hire car. Make absolutely sure that you have seen the company policy that covers you and make sure that it has adequate cover. Nothing worse that having a prang or worse with your own or someone elses car and finding out that you are not going to be covered. And you thought you were helping out your company?
Travel from home to your regular place of work is fine but as soon as you are driving on company time your insurance policy usually stops covering you. So, make sure that if you are self positioning you are insured AND that you can finish your rostered duty period without discretion.
The naivety of some posters on here beggars belief sometimes! If you think an insurance comany or your own comapny will feel sorry for you if you have an accident and you didn't make sure you were insured then you probably also believe that pigs might fly!
Also, if using a hire car, make sure that the insurance covers you when driving on behalf of the company. Most policies, again, do not cover you. Your employer is duty bound to have in place a policy that covers you if you do ANY driving on behalf of the company, whether your own car or a hire car. Make absolutely sure that you have seen the company policy that covers you and make sure that it has adequate cover. Nothing worse that having a prang or worse with your own or someone elses car and finding out that you are not going to be covered. And you thought you were helping out your company?
Travel from home to your regular place of work is fine but as soon as you are driving on company time your insurance policy usually stops covering you. So, make sure that if you are self positioning you are insured AND that you can finish your rostered duty period without discretion.
The naivety of some posters on here beggars belief sometimes! If you think an insurance comany or your own comapny will feel sorry for you if you have an accident and you didn't make sure you were insured then you probably also believe that pigs might fly!
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Some of our crews came up with the solution to this problem.
Its quite easy really. As 'cargo boy' says, you may not be insured with your own car and must always check that you are covered on the insurance provided with the hire car.
Yes, you are quite within your rights to refuse to drive if fatigued as per the Health and Safety laws. You may also collect your P45 the next day!
However although your company may stipulate the average journey time, there is nothing in the Ops Manual to say how many bathroom breaks and en-route rest stops you may take and for how long. Also Britains road's are becoming horribly congested, aren't they?
So your 1.5 hour journey suddenly turns into three hours through no fault of your own. Perhaps even meaning you are unable to have min rest before your next rostered flight!!
After this happens a few times the company might start putting taxi's back on.
BTW, pigs CAN fly! Have you seen those helicopters they have these days
(OK, sorry!)
Its quite easy really. As 'cargo boy' says, you may not be insured with your own car and must always check that you are covered on the insurance provided with the hire car.
Yes, you are quite within your rights to refuse to drive if fatigued as per the Health and Safety laws. You may also collect your P45 the next day!
However although your company may stipulate the average journey time, there is nothing in the Ops Manual to say how many bathroom breaks and en-route rest stops you may take and for how long. Also Britains road's are becoming horribly congested, aren't they?
So your 1.5 hour journey suddenly turns into three hours through no fault of your own. Perhaps even meaning you are unable to have min rest before your next rostered flight!!
After this happens a few times the company might start putting taxi's back on.
BTW, pigs CAN fly! Have you seen those helicopters they have these days
(OK, sorry!)
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Yes, you are quite within your rights to refuse to drive if fatigued as per the Health and Safety laws. You may also collect your P45 the next day!
You have to have solidarity on this matter though. It bites at the heart of air safety and road safety. You can work on it in ways other than just living in fear of losing your job, and therefore doing anything your management requests. It begs the question: what wouldn't you do for them?
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Old saying from the USA.
If you dont stand for something then you will fall for anything.
Once a standard is broken then you have established a new standard, before long you have no standards at all.
Might as well throw all rules and regulations out the door.
Next will be exceeding duty day by several hours, then you accept an aircraft with a known MEL/DDPG violation!
Bad Airlines stay in business by busting regs, once you start there is no stopping.
Should an accident happen who will be at fault, the Airline?
NOT
If you dont stand for something then you will fall for anything.
Once a standard is broken then you have established a new standard, before long you have no standards at all.
Might as well throw all rules and regulations out the door.
Next will be exceeding duty day by several hours, then you accept an aircraft with a known MEL/DDPG violation!
Bad Airlines stay in business by busting regs, once you start there is no stopping.
Should an accident happen who will be at fault, the Airline?
NOT
Last edited by Howlowcanugo; 24th Jul 2004 at 17:35.
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Spork,
Our entire aircrew has solidarity on this matter. However the cold practicalities of life are that there are many easy ways to get rid of troublesome crew and many more ready to take your place.
I am sure if you fly for a UK airline you would understand this.
And as regards solidarity - We have been trying for over a year to get help from BALPA and received nothing back from them. What a waste of money!
Our entire aircrew has solidarity on this matter. However the cold practicalities of life are that there are many easy ways to get rid of troublesome crew and many more ready to take your place.
I am sure if you fly for a UK airline you would understand this.
And as regards solidarity - We have been trying for over a year to get help from BALPA and received nothing back from them. What a waste of money!
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Yes - I understand that. I know only too well about moronic management getting rid of "troublesome" employees. (see my profile) I've lost my job twice now for making a stand on safety issues.
The first occasion, many years ago, was heavily connected with aviation safety, and as the QA Chief Inspector I made a stand. I hadn’t been there long enough to have any employment rights, and I stupidly thought that senior management would want to correct issues such as falsified paperwork. I got heavy, threatening phone-calls after being sacked to ensure I took it no further. My career in that area was destroyed.
Many years later I make a stand on safety in the workplace (never learn do I?) and hey presto I’m suddenly redundant. Now at 51 it looks like I’ll never work again.
I was one person in both situations, fighting impossible odds. You (plural) are not alone. It seems at the moment that crew are waiting for a disaster, to use as evidence to support their case. That frightens me. I apologise if I’ve offended anyone, and if I seem too simplistic with this.
The first occasion, many years ago, was heavily connected with aviation safety, and as the QA Chief Inspector I made a stand. I hadn’t been there long enough to have any employment rights, and I stupidly thought that senior management would want to correct issues such as falsified paperwork. I got heavy, threatening phone-calls after being sacked to ensure I took it no further. My career in that area was destroyed.
Many years later I make a stand on safety in the workplace (never learn do I?) and hey presto I’m suddenly redundant. Now at 51 it looks like I’ll never work again.
I was one person in both situations, fighting impossible odds. You (plural) are not alone. It seems at the moment that crew are waiting for a disaster, to use as evidence to support their case. That frightens me. I apologise if I’ve offended anyone, and if I seem too simplistic with this.
