Gulf Air - desperation & woes continue
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I can't say I have. But I have travelled enough to find the diference among so many different cultures...
My remark was done generally speaking. My point was that one should think twice before becoming an expat.
My remark was done generally speaking. My point was that one should think twice before becoming an expat.
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Of course you should.
But consider this.
In Bahrain you can:-
Worship at a Protestant or Catholic church or an officially sanctioned Jewish Synagogue.
Drink alcohol, watch western films and TV and eat pork without hindrance
Live (unmarried) with someone of the opposite sex
Join and participate in social activities that reflect your own nationality (ie The British, Indian, Pakistani, Thai etc etc clubs and a really cheery Rugby Club)
So, to be an expat in Bahrain is not a trial or a tribulation. It is one of the sanest countries I have had the privilege of living in after a life spent mostly as an expatriate.
But consider this.
In Bahrain you can:-
Worship at a Protestant or Catholic church or an officially sanctioned Jewish Synagogue.
Drink alcohol, watch western films and TV and eat pork without hindrance
Live (unmarried) with someone of the opposite sex
Join and participate in social activities that reflect your own nationality (ie The British, Indian, Pakistani, Thai etc etc clubs and a really cheery Rugby Club)
So, to be an expat in Bahrain is not a trial or a tribulation. It is one of the sanest countries I have had the privilege of living in after a life spent mostly as an expatriate.
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I agree. housemaids getting repeatedly raped by their employers, then told they can't leave unless they drop the charges. widespread abuse of expat women who are just walking on the street, total abuse of labourers from the indian sub continent. prostitution everywhere. drunk saudis all over the place on weekends. fraud and corruption on a grand scale. its a sane place.
Do you get out much?
Do you get out much?
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Ummm. Ok.
Yes, people from the Indian sub-continent be they housemaids or whatever are exploited. There will always be someone who takes advantage of these people and their desparation to find better paid (or any paid) work. The same thing could be said of any major city in any developed country in the world.
I don't know how one can stop this. It's easy to say READ THE CONTRACT!! but how many of them are able to read (period).
I've seen them arrive at the airport then herded into a pick-up for a journey to a small apartment off Exibition Road whilst they are "processed" pending transfer to KSA or wherever.
But are the people who direct such activities any different to those who do the same in New York or London or Sydney? Is the
who set up the deal in Bombay or Bangkok any different? I doubt it.
Western women given a hard time. Yes. But it depends on how they chose to dress outside their home/work environment. Hot pants and a lycra top are guaranteed to excite an Arab - particularly a Saudi. We all know the rules. Choose not to follow them (OK) but accept the inevitable.
What else?
Yes, people from the Indian sub-continent be they housemaids or whatever are exploited. There will always be someone who takes advantage of these people and their desparation to find better paid (or any paid) work. The same thing could be said of any major city in any developed country in the world.
I don't know how one can stop this. It's easy to say READ THE CONTRACT!! but how many of them are able to read (period).
I've seen them arrive at the airport then herded into a pick-up for a journey to a small apartment off Exibition Road whilst they are "processed" pending transfer to KSA or wherever.
But are the people who direct such activities any different to those who do the same in New York or London or Sydney? Is the
who set up the deal in Bombay or Bangkok any different? I doubt it.Western women given a hard time. Yes. But it depends on how they chose to dress outside their home/work environment. Hot pants and a lycra top are guaranteed to excite an Arab - particularly a Saudi. We all know the rules. Choose not to follow them (OK) but accept the inevitable.
What else?
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Goodness gracious guys.....!!!!!!!
All this controversy about living in Bahrain and the Middle East in general.
There's no need to lose our heads over this......OOOOOPS
All this controversy about living in Bahrain and the Middle East in general.
There's no need to lose our heads over this......OOOOOPS
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Xeque, living in Bahrain is no picnic. Someone wrote... all the money.. nothing is an easy ride. They are right! See there is a saying, you come to the middle east with 2 buckets. 1 for bull**** and 1 for money. Once one is full you leave. Well my money one is full and about another month and my bull**** one would be full too. Lucky for me, I fly out of here on the 27th for good!
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It is once again extremely simple.
If you have a dispute with an airline management in the Middle East then you are basically having a dispute with one of the symbols of the nation.
The nationals take these kind of disputes vry seriously and the best thing you can do is to get out of the country as quickly as possible and fight your batle from outside. That's exactely what this captain has done.
Any argument that tries to put this captain something in his shoes based on the fact that he left the counry is denying the reality of the place.
The labour laws are there to defend the locals, that's all there is to it. All the rest is a waist of time.
This reasoning is valid for the whole Middle East. Only if these contries would sign up to some bilareral agreements and hence open up their system will their aruments any credibility.
If you have a dispute with an airline management in the Middle East then you are basically having a dispute with one of the symbols of the nation.
The nationals take these kind of disputes vry seriously and the best thing you can do is to get out of the country as quickly as possible and fight your batle from outside. That's exactely what this captain has done.
Any argument that tries to put this captain something in his shoes based on the fact that he left the counry is denying the reality of the place.
The labour laws are there to defend the locals, that's all there is to it. All the rest is a waist of time.
This reasoning is valid for the whole Middle East. Only if these contries would sign up to some bilareral agreements and hence open up their system will their aruments any credibility.
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Well , I am working for GF on A320 and am based in Bahrain.
For the moment I find the company rather cool and effecient.We are flying hard , it's a fact, but it a very good work atmosphere.
Never heard about the story of the B767 in January.I am going to investigate about it to understand what happened.
Again, I find this company great even if a lot of things can be improved as in any company...and living in Bahrain does'nt imply specific problems for an european guy.
For the moment I find the company rather cool and effecient.We are flying hard , it's a fact, but it a very good work atmosphere.
Never heard about the story of the B767 in January.I am going to investigate about it to understand what happened.
Again, I find this company great even if a lot of things can be improved as in any company...and living in Bahrain does'nt imply specific problems for an european guy.
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chrispatrick, if you are like a couple friends of mine flying the 320...you don't spend any time in Bahrain. would you agree that half your month is spent in hotels outside Bahrain? Of course Bahrain is not so bad when you are only here half the month.
it's all about what one wants/likes.. If you are from eastern europe and had the opportunity to come work here..then it's a great deal. If you like 45 degree and flying sand then this is the place for you.
TCASTED is very very right about how things work out here. Not only in the airline industry.. it applies to everything in this part of the world.
it's all about what one wants/likes.. If you are from eastern europe and had the opportunity to come work here..then it's a great deal. If you like 45 degree and flying sand then this is the place for you.
TCASTED is very very right about how things work out here. Not only in the airline industry.. it applies to everything in this part of the world.
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The Captain mentioned was known to be less than diplomatic, and quite often irrational, and explosive when dealing with issues, particularly cabin crew, and ground staff..the purser is a pleasant fellow who I find quite pleasureable to operate with..a bit of diplomacy and CRM by the Capt. would have most certainly averted the situation...
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What ironbutt57 really means is that if there is a problem you better solve it on the spot, in other words, keep the management out of it because it only makes things worse.
Basically, management hates to have to deal with this sort of things; they have other things to do and are not waiting to solve his kinds of infantile disputes.
I see that reference is being made to CRM however CRM has nothing to do with this issue but basic respect for your colleagues by getting on time has.
One can abuse he use of CRM at will and this is clearly the case.
Basically, management hates to have to deal with this sort of things; they have other things to do and are not waiting to solve his kinds of infantile disputes.
I see that reference is being made to CRM however CRM has nothing to do with this issue but basic respect for your colleagues by getting on time has.
One can abuse he use of CRM at will and this is clearly the case.
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As one senior chief pilot once told me:" I as a captain you are trying to be nice to everbody you are probably not doing you job properly"
In other words, if you have a position of authority then you are bound to have to take decisions that not everybody is goindg to be happy with.
CRM is all about decision making, the process to get your facts right. That’s exactly what this captain has done.
He got as much information as possible, including the backup from OPS by fax.
What happened later is pure politics, finding a way to please the party that has the most power while preserving/reinforcing once own position for the future.
In other words, if you have a position of authority then you are bound to have to take decisions that not everybody is goindg to be happy with.
CRM is all about decision making, the process to get your facts right. That’s exactly what this captain has done.
He got as much information as possible, including the backup from OPS by fax.
What happened later is pure politics, finding a way to please the party that has the most power while preserving/reinforcing once own position for the future.
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Trust me Cap56 flew with the f.o. following the incident..this capt was way over the top....and always was with ops personnel, and just about everybody else....and he didn,t "get as much info as possible., he exploded into a fit of screaming rage in front of the whole crew, and aircraft groomers, and everybody else, and the purser hadn't disappeared, he had gone to the proper gate for transport.when the capt went to the wrong boarding gate and didn't find the cabin crew (because the capt was at the wrong place) he erupted into a fit rage...and the cabin crew..ALL OF THEM where frightened by the whole thing, and were a bit loathe to operate the flight. when the whole story came to light in Bah, the Capt was suspended....the rest of the proceedings are of no interest to me, or my colleagues..just dont judge GF by this isolated incident....
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ironbutt57
If what you say is true then I have to agree with you.
I also add, that I never have seen any disrespect from any cabin crew towards the cockpit crew as long as I was in the Middle East on the contrary!
The problem many Airlines have in the Middle East is that the do not know who they hire as opposed to Airlines that run a Cadet Pilot program and know them for years before they actually get on the Flight Deck.
Psychological tests during recruitment tell a very limited story and need a lot of interpretation.
But mind you the same is true for the hiring process of the management staff.
If what you say is true then I have to agree with you.
I also add, that I never have seen any disrespect from any cabin crew towards the cockpit crew as long as I was in the Middle East on the contrary!
The problem many Airlines have in the Middle East is that the do not know who they hire as opposed to Airlines that run a Cadet Pilot program and know them for years before they actually get on the Flight Deck.
Psychological tests during recruitment tell a very limited story and need a lot of interpretation.
But mind you the same is true for the hiring process of the management staff.
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the above post was the account of both the f.o., and an expatriate junior cabin crew member who were part of the crew in question...'nuff said..just presenting the other side of the story as lived by the crew...
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ironbottom57:
I was curious as to when you would appear.
Your blatant lies regarding the Captain’s behavior in order to secure your own precarious position with the locals, comes as no surprise.
The Arab First Officer you spoke to, is that the same First Officer who was fist-fighting with the German Captain in yet ANOTHER dispute over the Captain’s lawful authority at Gulf Air?
Tell us about that particular incident, won’t you please?
Do you really think that female junior cabin crew making a 1000 times more money than in their own country, are going to make truthful statements to their male Arab employers in a dispute between a Baharini Flight Senior and an American Captain? Particularly when that Captain has already left the country and given the effect the Bahraini Flight Seniors can have on the life a female junior cabin crewmember.
It is common knowledge the despicable way the Bahrainis treat female junior cabin crew and Arab men treat women in general.
ironbottom; I am not sure if you are a Captain or not, or what your experience level is. However, from your comments, one thing is for sure, you are rapidly turning native.
The commander of a commercial airliner is not running a democratic institution.
A good Captain will ask for and to listen to comments and ideas from his crew and make his decisions accordingly.
A bad Captain will make his decisions so as not to upset his crew.
If you are a Captain, I suspect you are the latter.
All this talk from you of CRM. Did you not read the post? The Flight Senior was given ample opportunity to discuss the matter with the Captain. All the Flight Senior could say was, “There is nothing to talk about” and “I have been here 22 years”.
Where was the CRM when Gulf Air crashed a perfectly serviceable A320 into the sea off Bahrain, killing all on board?
You simply cannot change the Arab mindset.
I was curious as to when you would appear.
Your blatant lies regarding the Captain’s behavior in order to secure your own precarious position with the locals, comes as no surprise.
The Arab First Officer you spoke to, is that the same First Officer who was fist-fighting with the German Captain in yet ANOTHER dispute over the Captain’s lawful authority at Gulf Air?
Tell us about that particular incident, won’t you please?
Do you really think that female junior cabin crew making a 1000 times more money than in their own country, are going to make truthful statements to their male Arab employers in a dispute between a Baharini Flight Senior and an American Captain? Particularly when that Captain has already left the country and given the effect the Bahraini Flight Seniors can have on the life a female junior cabin crewmember.
It is common knowledge the despicable way the Bahrainis treat female junior cabin crew and Arab men treat women in general.
ironbottom; I am not sure if you are a Captain or not, or what your experience level is. However, from your comments, one thing is for sure, you are rapidly turning native.
The commander of a commercial airliner is not running a democratic institution.
A good Captain will ask for and to listen to comments and ideas from his crew and make his decisions accordingly.
A bad Captain will make his decisions so as not to upset his crew.
If you are a Captain, I suspect you are the latter.
All this talk from you of CRM. Did you not read the post? The Flight Senior was given ample opportunity to discuss the matter with the Captain. All the Flight Senior could say was, “There is nothing to talk about” and “I have been here 22 years”.
Where was the CRM when Gulf Air crashed a perfectly serviceable A320 into the sea off Bahrain, killing all on board?
You simply cannot change the Arab mindset.
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It seems if somebody from Gulf Air says something is black TCASTED says it's white. It is boring when someone is so blinded by a personal vendeta that a thread ceases to be a debate, and becomes a way for someone to vent their anger. The truth has been lost here from around day 1. It's just who can shout the loudest now. Go on TED shout some more!!
Tcased is 100% correct.
Why then does a new airline start in Auh to replace Gulf air and it employs mostly Ex-pats , because the mentality of the people Tcased was talking about airlines....
Why then does a new airline start in Auh to replace Gulf air and it employs mostly Ex-pats , because the mentality of the people Tcased was talking about
airlines....
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Just a couple more facts:
Gulf Air VP Human Resources, Ian Waterhose and General Counsel, Dr. Majali, have both stated their intention to pursue the fired Captain for making defamatory comments about his scandalous treatment by Gulf Air.
Of course what these two icons of integrity have failed to sate is that they will only pursue the Captain in Bahrain. They are not so certain of their case outside of Bahrain.
Both Waterhose and Majali have been invited to bring their case in a western courtroom. To date, their threat remains idle.
This facts and truth of this matter will be made public however, when it finally reaches a court in the USA in an action against Gulf Air brought by the Captain.
The Captain was never paid 3-months notice or even the salary and allowances that was owing to him.
With the release of the 911 Commission Report and it's recommendations, I doubt that Gulf Air will be flying to the USA anytime soon. Defiant acts against the aircraft commander are not acceptable to the US authorities and American public, even though they seem to be condoned by Gulf Air.
Nothing more to add. The FACTS are loud enough.
I hope you guys at Gulf Air can find real airline jobs. Soon.
Gulf Air VP Human Resources, Ian Waterhose and General Counsel, Dr. Majali, have both stated their intention to pursue the fired Captain for making defamatory comments about his scandalous treatment by Gulf Air.
Of course what these two icons of integrity have failed to sate is that they will only pursue the Captain in Bahrain. They are not so certain of their case outside of Bahrain.
Both Waterhose and Majali have been invited to bring their case in a western courtroom. To date, their threat remains idle.
This facts and truth of this matter will be made public however, when it finally reaches a court in the USA in an action against Gulf Air brought by the Captain.
The Captain was never paid 3-months notice or even the salary and allowances that was owing to him.
With the release of the 911 Commission Report and it's recommendations, I doubt that Gulf Air will be flying to the USA anytime soon. Defiant acts against the aircraft commander are not acceptable to the US authorities and American public, even though they seem to be condoned by Gulf Air.
Nothing more to add. The FACTS are loud enough.
I hope you guys at Gulf Air can find real airline jobs. Soon.
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Ironbutt,
Thanks for (at least) one other side of the story. I said in my previous posts that there had to be more to it.
Tcasted,
I don't pretend to be anywhere close to GF or it's personnel other than knowing some of them socially in Bahrain and being on the receiving end of the service when I fly with the airline.
Considering the amount of c**p they take from some passengers, particularly the large Arab families who check-in late without prior seat allocations and then insist on re-arranging themselves and the rest of the cabin once they get on board, I think they all do a good job.
I've watched the Arab Flight Seniors working with cabin staff of many nationalities (mainly female) courtiously and (whenever I've been within hearing range of the galley) in harmony.
I don't know what your relationship is or was with the company but you do seem to have a major axe to grind.
Anyway, I picked up my tickets last week and I fly with GF to London via Bahrain and back again next month. It will not be a "pleasant" experience given the amount of space each passenger must occupy for the duration of each sector. That, however, is certainly no fault of the crew who will, I'm sure, look after me with the same kindness and courtesy that one expects from any major airline.
And a final word to the Bahrain knockers. If it is so bad there why are there several thousand western expatriates, some of them into the third and fourth generation of the same families, who will never leave? Indeed, how many of them are now investing in the Kingdom by buying property there and setting up retirement homes?
I have stated in this forum the years I have spent living and working in the region. Yes, 8 years in KSA was very difficult. My remaining time in Bahrain was, however, very pleasant, even an appearance in court for a speeding offence was not unpleasant (apart from the fine). Given the chance to return there to live again I would take it like a shot.
This is my last post to this thread.
Thanks for (at least) one other side of the story. I said in my previous posts that there had to be more to it.
Tcasted,
I don't pretend to be anywhere close to GF or it's personnel other than knowing some of them socially in Bahrain and being on the receiving end of the service when I fly with the airline.
Considering the amount of c**p they take from some passengers, particularly the large Arab families who check-in late without prior seat allocations and then insist on re-arranging themselves and the rest of the cabin once they get on board, I think they all do a good job.
I've watched the Arab Flight Seniors working with cabin staff of many nationalities (mainly female) courtiously and (whenever I've been within hearing range of the galley) in harmony.
I don't know what your relationship is or was with the company but you do seem to have a major axe to grind.
Anyway, I picked up my tickets last week and I fly with GF to London via Bahrain and back again next month. It will not be a "pleasant" experience given the amount of space each passenger must occupy for the duration of each sector. That, however, is certainly no fault of the crew who will, I'm sure, look after me with the same kindness and courtesy that one expects from any major airline.
And a final word to the Bahrain knockers. If it is so bad there why are there several thousand western expatriates, some of them into the third and fourth generation of the same families, who will never leave? Indeed, how many of them are now investing in the Kingdom by buying property there and setting up retirement homes?
I have stated in this forum the years I have spent living and working in the region. Yes, 8 years in KSA was very difficult. My remaining time in Bahrain was, however, very pleasant, even an appearance in court for a speeding offence was not unpleasant (apart from the fine). Given the chance to return there to live again I would take it like a shot.
This is my last post to this thread.
Last edited by Xeque; 26th Jul 2004 at 15:44.