Censorship - Please stop Airline Security SOP's being posted on this site.
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Censorship - Please stop Airline Security SOP's being posted on this site.
Danny
I have just got back to Europe, overflown NY and spent what I can only describe as a distraught week with our crew in the states.
Danny, I fully believe in free speach and ultimatley in the next few weeks many of our serviceman may be asked to put their lives on the line to protect just that principle.
I find however, open and public discussion of current SOP's and current security measures by Airline Professionals on this site to be utterly irresponsible and dangerous, especially when the Airline is named.
Without wishing to sound pious this should be stopped now. I can not imagine this is easy, but we all have a responsiblity to our colleagues and our passengers.
I have just got back to Europe, overflown NY and spent what I can only describe as a distraught week with our crew in the states.
Danny, I fully believe in free speach and ultimatley in the next few weeks many of our serviceman may be asked to put their lives on the line to protect just that principle.
I find however, open and public discussion of current SOP's and current security measures by Airline Professionals on this site to be utterly irresponsible and dangerous, especially when the Airline is named.
Without wishing to sound pious this should be stopped now. I can not imagine this is easy, but we all have a responsiblity to our colleagues and our passengers.
Everything is under control.
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The union spokespeople might also consider revealing less information about possible defenses: http://www.wjla.com/showstory.hrb?f=n&s=17179&f1=n
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Eboy ]
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Eboy ]
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I've already (quite incredibly) been censored for asking..no, DEMANDING...that people shut the f*** up on the discussion of SOPs.
Free speech on PPrune? Only of you're a blabber mouth assisting the lunatic fringe garner info.
And PS...it's not just hardened terrorists who'd like to take down a/c, so don't give me the 'they already know how' b***s**t.
Free speech on PPrune? Only of you're a blabber mouth assisting the lunatic fringe garner info.
And PS...it's not just hardened terrorists who'd like to take down a/c, so don't give me the 'they already know how' b***s**t.
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I couldn't agree more chaps.
The less people that know what actions we may (or may not) take, the better.
Security is meant to be restricted information (at least in the UK), and it is irresponsible to publish any such information.
The less people that know what actions we may (or may not) take, the better.
Security is meant to be restricted information (at least in the UK), and it is irresponsible to publish any such information.
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maxalt
I think you'll find that you were censored for your tone and language rather than your message. I can see that it has not abated your style any.
For everyone else, the point being made is a valid one. If it's not something in the public domain, then it shouldn't be going up here. Not only do you pose a possible risk to the future security of the aviation system, you're very likely in breach of your company rules and could be liable for disciplinary action.
I think you'll find that you were censored for your tone and language rather than your message. I can see that it has not abated your style any.
For everyone else, the point being made is a valid one. If it's not something in the public domain, then it shouldn't be going up here. Not only do you pose a possible risk to the future security of the aviation system, you're very likely in breach of your company rules and could be liable for disciplinary action.
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I think it is extremely likely that PPRuNe was used as an information site for these 'informed' terrorists.
No matter what anyone says - it is very clear that there is a security hazard with this site!
I find it astounding that people are discussing the way that security needs to change and airline/airport procedures on this public forum.
Equally astoundng is the fact that this site is not better censored and restricted - why on earth are peoples actual identities not stored with the site moderators before access is allowed.
Danny you have a very dangerous hobby!
No matter what anyone says - it is very clear that there is a security hazard with this site!
I find it astounding that people are discussing the way that security needs to change and airline/airport procedures on this public forum.
Equally astoundng is the fact that this site is not better censored and restricted - why on earth are peoples actual identities not stored with the site moderators before access is allowed.
Danny you have a very dangerous hobby!
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Stopthink--
It is, of course, potentially dangerous to publicise secret security information in any medium. But if that information is in the hands of people who are liable to spill the beans in places like here, I suspect the real problem doesn't lie with Pprune. It's not the only such place, not by a long chalk.
The factors behind the American attack succeeding include failure of the US intelligence agencies to pre-empt the threat, excreable US airport security, and an audacious and very well planned operation. While Pprune is useful to all pilots -- including nefarious ones -- I doubt that any of the measures you suggest would have changed history one iota. Even knowing who posted something wouldn't undo the posting, while someone bent on maliciousness could fake their ID in the first place.
Conversely, I would hope (in fact, have no doubt!) that people involved in planning and maintaining security are watching Pprune. It reflects what people are talking about anyway, and knowing what people know is important. In my experience of computer security, faults often *only* get fixed when publicised -- sometimes, well after the information has got out to the hackers.
After last week, I hope that Pprune will help raise people's awareness of the complexities of the issues at stake. It's a tough call where to draw the line between the increased freedom to talk from anonymity and a laissez-faire policy to posting, and the risks from a careless posting. But everyone in possession of sensitive information *has* to be considered a professional with full knowledge of the consequences of their action. Pprune doesn't change that.
R
It is, of course, potentially dangerous to publicise secret security information in any medium. But if that information is in the hands of people who are liable to spill the beans in places like here, I suspect the real problem doesn't lie with Pprune. It's not the only such place, not by a long chalk.
The factors behind the American attack succeeding include failure of the US intelligence agencies to pre-empt the threat, excreable US airport security, and an audacious and very well planned operation. While Pprune is useful to all pilots -- including nefarious ones -- I doubt that any of the measures you suggest would have changed history one iota. Even knowing who posted something wouldn't undo the posting, while someone bent on maliciousness could fake their ID in the first place.
Conversely, I would hope (in fact, have no doubt!) that people involved in planning and maintaining security are watching Pprune. It reflects what people are talking about anyway, and knowing what people know is important. In my experience of computer security, faults often *only* get fixed when publicised -- sometimes, well after the information has got out to the hackers.
After last week, I hope that Pprune will help raise people's awareness of the complexities of the issues at stake. It's a tough call where to draw the line between the increased freedom to talk from anonymity and a laissez-faire policy to posting, and the risks from a careless posting. But everyone in possession of sensitive information *has* to be considered a professional with full knowledge of the consequences of their action. Pprune doesn't change that.
R
Judgement is called for. I believe security policies need very much to be discussed especially when failure is fully apparent. Full debate is essential to develop truly effective procedures. The new security regulations banning Swiss Army Knives, Leathermans and cutlery etc. are little more than a sop to the public to show that something has been done -- no matter how ineffectual. Next to follow as contraband will be metal-barelled pens and pencils and keys, all of which can inflict major, even fatal, injury.
Just what specific measures are adopted by individual operators are of course confidential. As far as El Al's security procedures are concerned, a good deal has been published in the newspapers over the years, some likely at El Al's behest to deter tha bad guys.
Just what specific measures are adopted by individual operators are of course confidential. As far as El Al's security procedures are concerned, a good deal has been published in the newspapers over the years, some likely at El Al's behest to deter tha bad guys.
I have not seen one thing on PPRuNe that is not available elsewhere.
I think you are overeacting.
Last Tuesdays events were obviously well funded and resourced. It looks like they put their manpower through flight training all the way to a sim course. I doubt there was little technical info they did not know already.
As for operational matters - are you suggesting that every airline Ops manual ever printed is secure? No journals, seminars or manuals about airline security are available to anybody who has reason to seek them? Hardly.
Whilst I recognise 'they' have to be seen to be doing something to give general reassurance to the public I am finding the continued antics of Operation 'Stable Door' and Operation 'Bolted Horse' to be highly unamusing.
a) Why are we searching EVERYONES hand luggage when its been screened already? What do the machines miss that a harassed security 'gaurd' will find? And, ummm, is it really necessary to search half the aircrafts passengers who in some instances this week have been clearly over 60 and as more likely to wet themselves as put a knife to my throat on a UK domestic flight.
b) What is the point of locking the highly kick downable flightdeck door and banning flightdeck visits? Like that is going to stop terrorists with a will to die and a year in the planning.
c) As far as I understand it NONE of the measures currently being taken would actually prevent another WTC being made out of Canary Wharf. X-rays can still buy a ticket, come on board with a harmless looking piece of plastic and male wash kit and they can still gain access to the flight controls.
WWW
I think you are overeacting.
Last Tuesdays events were obviously well funded and resourced. It looks like they put their manpower through flight training all the way to a sim course. I doubt there was little technical info they did not know already.
As for operational matters - are you suggesting that every airline Ops manual ever printed is secure? No journals, seminars or manuals about airline security are available to anybody who has reason to seek them? Hardly.
Whilst I recognise 'they' have to be seen to be doing something to give general reassurance to the public I am finding the continued antics of Operation 'Stable Door' and Operation 'Bolted Horse' to be highly unamusing.
a) Why are we searching EVERYONES hand luggage when its been screened already? What do the machines miss that a harassed security 'gaurd' will find? And, ummm, is it really necessary to search half the aircrafts passengers who in some instances this week have been clearly over 60 and as more likely to wet themselves as put a knife to my throat on a UK domestic flight.
b) What is the point of locking the highly kick downable flightdeck door and banning flightdeck visits? Like that is going to stop terrorists with a will to die and a year in the planning.
c) As far as I understand it NONE of the measures currently being taken would actually prevent another WTC being made out of Canary Wharf. X-rays can still buy a ticket, come on board with a harmless looking piece of plastic and male wash kit and they can still gain access to the flight controls.
WWW
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WWW
How you can consider people to be overreacting !
Yes this horse has well and truly bolted but this does not absolve this site of its responsiblities as you as a moderator.
Nearly all employees have a confidentiality agreement, further those operators carrying out Operations on behalf of HM Gov have to comply with the Official Secrets Act. Ops manuals may have been in the public arena in the past, but following these events are you saying what has happened in the past is OK.
Now, I agree much of the stuff I have found is already in the Public Arena, some is not, but are you now telling me the press is now an accurate source of Aviation Information.
We have spent much of our time on this site decrying the presses general misunderstanding of Aviation Operations. Do you honestly believe the press do not use this site to obtain some of the oppinions they so often get wrong.
One of our colleauges gives out Brymons new cockpit access SOP, others those about Fed Ex's new offline Jump seat policy. These are confidential and without public proliforation would require any potential terrosrist to "Test the Airline" , Now they dont have to bother.
These B'strds vere very well prepared to a level of proficiencey you, me and almost every other pilot on this site finds deeply shocking.
Lets not give them any other specifics that might help them along the way, we are not the press, we are at the sharp end and our info is very useful to both the press and the bad guys.
Please just some judgement and responsibility, this is a great site and most of us appreciate the work you guys put in to keep it going.
How you can consider people to be overreacting !
Yes this horse has well and truly bolted but this does not absolve this site of its responsiblities as you as a moderator.
Nearly all employees have a confidentiality agreement, further those operators carrying out Operations on behalf of HM Gov have to comply with the Official Secrets Act. Ops manuals may have been in the public arena in the past, but following these events are you saying what has happened in the past is OK.
Now, I agree much of the stuff I have found is already in the Public Arena, some is not, but are you now telling me the press is now an accurate source of Aviation Information.
We have spent much of our time on this site decrying the presses general misunderstanding of Aviation Operations. Do you honestly believe the press do not use this site to obtain some of the oppinions they so often get wrong.
One of our colleauges gives out Brymons new cockpit access SOP, others those about Fed Ex's new offline Jump seat policy. These are confidential and without public proliforation would require any potential terrosrist to "Test the Airline" , Now they dont have to bother.
These B'strds vere very well prepared to a level of proficiencey you, me and almost every other pilot on this site finds deeply shocking.
Lets not give them any other specifics that might help them along the way, we are not the press, we are at the sharp end and our info is very useful to both the press and the bad guys.
Please just some judgement and responsibility, this is a great site and most of us appreciate the work you guys put in to keep it going.
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I have not seen one thing on PPRuNe that is not available elsewhere.
Why are we searching EVERYONES hand luggage...
What is the point of locking the highly kick downable flightdeck door and banning flightdeck visits? Like that is going to stop terrorists with a will to die and a year in the planning.
I think you'll find that you were censored for your tone and language rather than your message.
No apologies for my 'tone'. I call a spade a spade. This site is getting out of order...and I don't mean the bad language!
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
I thought you would like to see the type of suppression we face if we let people, like the one who has written the following letter, have their way.
My reply follows after.
My reply:
Sir,
I have just arrived back from operating one of the first flights to operate into the USA since the airspace was reopened and so have not had a chance to read or analyse your email at length. Having said that, I would like to point out that I was immediately struck by your naivety, particulalry considering your claimed position as a DLTR approved aviation security instructor.
Considering that the tragic events of the last few days are still clouded in confusion and 'CNN' type speculation, the fact that you believe that PPRuNe could provide 'priveleged' information that is not available in much greater detail from many other public and official sources shows an ignorance that should be corrected as soon as possible.
Considering the planning that went into these acts of mass murder, including the fact that the terrorists must have had some formal training in a full motion flight simulator, a view I clearly put forward in live interviews on national radio and which has since been confirmed, then you would know the sums of money that must be at the disposal of the group or groups who carried out this horrific attack. If you honestly believe that PPRuNe played a part in educating these people, considering the resources that they have at their disposal, in particulalr using the site to get most of their details from instead of more informative sources then you are truly ignorant of modern day information technology and the internet.
One thing we have always prided ourselves on at PPRuNe is the moderation of the forums and no more so is that visible than in the 'Military Forum'. If you honestly think that the security services are unable to monitor a website like PPRuNe without coming to conclusions about the content and taking the necessary steps to prevent any release of sensitive information then again you are in dire need of some more education about the phenomenon of the Internet.
One thing you should be aware of is the fact that although posters on PPRuNe are anonymous to you, the server log files and IP addresses that I keep are available to any security service should they have the facilities to tap into them. From those a trace can be made and the Internet Service Providor of the user identified, but you knew this didn't you? As far as I am aware I still live in England and the server is in the USA and no laws have been passed that that restrict some of the civil liberites that you and I enjoy. As with all operations connected with PPRuNe, no laws have been broken.
I too am an airline pilot and together with every person who contributes to PPRuNe was as shocked and sickened by the events of last Tuesday. The internet is a double edged sword when it comes to discussing those events and the repercussions on our industry. Unfortunately you seem to believe that we should conduct our business under a black cloak and do not appear to comprehend the saturation of information technology and the internet with the spread of information and how that information empowers all of us. Indeed, many of the organisations you copied your original e-mail to also have websites which also detail information connected with the aviation industry and it's operations, including accident and incidents.
The real problem is, in my view, the massive failure of the various intelligence services that are supposed to be watching out for signs which may point to atrocities such as this being carried out. If they were as intelligent as you then no doubt they too would be reading PPRuNe and either preventing such sensitive information leaking out to organisations that plan on using it to commit more heinous acts of terror or using it to chase up on all those people that are not in the business but have an interest in it.
Having seen the reshaped skyline of Manhattan yesterday, with smoke still rising above the city from as far away as southern Maine, I am offended by your allegations and uneducated fears. Please feel free to reply with some evidence of specific allegations where any information that is not in the public domain has been revealed on PPRuNe and I will take back my comments.
Yours sincerely,
My reply follows after.
CC:
Civil Aviation Authority – Head of Safety and Regulation Group
The Embassy of the United States of America – Federal Aviation Authority and National Transportation Safety Board Representatives
The UK Transport Minister
DTLR – Head of Aviation Security
Head of the Air Accident Investigation Branch
Chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee
Confidential Human Incident Reporting Programme
British Airline Pilots Association
Head of Security at BAA Heathrow
Professional Pilots Rumour Network – Danny Ffyne
Dear Sir
I am an airline captain working from London Heathrow airport. I am writing to you in light of the abhorrent terrorist act that has been committed in the United States of America. I have watched the events unfold with quite a concerned interest. Whilst not claiming to be an aviation security expert, I do have more than an informed view on these matters - I am a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and work as an airline security officer. I feel that there is an urgent issue that needs bringing to your attention.
I am very concerned about the Internet web site PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network – www.pprune.org <http://www.pprune.org/> - and the security implications of this site.
This website has been running for some years and has now become very popular. It is fully available to the general public and is a totally anonymous way of posting controversial information regarding the aviation industry. Postings on this bulletin board are generally nonsense, gossip and rumour - but with a dangerously informed accent to them. Due to the sites anonymity, and pool of informed contributors, it could also be - and may well have been - used by potential terrorists to obtain information regarding the airline industry.
I hear that hijackers and individuals subsequently detained may have been carrying false crew identifications and uniforms. Amongst aircrew, it has been known for some time that crew are afforded less stringent security precautions than passengers. It is a sad fact that our own desire for idle gossip on this web site may have offered potential terrorists this and other privileged information. I have seen many postings requesting information on, or debating issues about, airline security. How crews are likely to react to hijackings or a serious threat is just one issue I have seen debated recently – sometimes overtly and otherwise subtly.
As you read this letter many so called professionals are discussing, on an open and public forum, the way that aviation security needs to change and procedures that are being put in place. I am shocked that these people are not contemplating the foolishness of this.
Not all pilots may agree with me as they feel this site is a useful network for information and is a pastime for them. It is clear, however, that there is a potential security risk with this site and I would like to register a formal complaint about it. I and many other experienced airmen see this site as serious risk. Those that promote it are clearly naive.
I would like to see the site either closed down. Or, at the very least, become unavailable to the general public. Regardless of any other steps, contributors must be made to fully identify themselves to the site moderators before being allowed to contribute.
I realise that the Internet is a very difficult thing to regulate. I am also aware that if this site were closed then another, perhaps more controversial, site could open in it’s place. Something must be done, however, to prevent restricted and sensitive information reaching parties that may have a sinister use for it. Perhaps now is the time that appropriate legislation to control the Internet is enacted.
Yours faithfully
Civil Aviation Authority – Head of Safety and Regulation Group
The Embassy of the United States of America – Federal Aviation Authority and National Transportation Safety Board Representatives
The UK Transport Minister
DTLR – Head of Aviation Security
Head of the Air Accident Investigation Branch
Chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee
Confidential Human Incident Reporting Programme
British Airline Pilots Association
Head of Security at BAA Heathrow
Professional Pilots Rumour Network – Danny Ffyne
Dear Sir
I am an airline captain working from London Heathrow airport. I am writing to you in light of the abhorrent terrorist act that has been committed in the United States of America. I have watched the events unfold with quite a concerned interest. Whilst not claiming to be an aviation security expert, I do have more than an informed view on these matters - I am a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and work as an airline security officer. I feel that there is an urgent issue that needs bringing to your attention.
I am very concerned about the Internet web site PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network – www.pprune.org <http://www.pprune.org/> - and the security implications of this site.
This website has been running for some years and has now become very popular. It is fully available to the general public and is a totally anonymous way of posting controversial information regarding the aviation industry. Postings on this bulletin board are generally nonsense, gossip and rumour - but with a dangerously informed accent to them. Due to the sites anonymity, and pool of informed contributors, it could also be - and may well have been - used by potential terrorists to obtain information regarding the airline industry.
I hear that hijackers and individuals subsequently detained may have been carrying false crew identifications and uniforms. Amongst aircrew, it has been known for some time that crew are afforded less stringent security precautions than passengers. It is a sad fact that our own desire for idle gossip on this web site may have offered potential terrorists this and other privileged information. I have seen many postings requesting information on, or debating issues about, airline security. How crews are likely to react to hijackings or a serious threat is just one issue I have seen debated recently – sometimes overtly and otherwise subtly.
As you read this letter many so called professionals are discussing, on an open and public forum, the way that aviation security needs to change and procedures that are being put in place. I am shocked that these people are not contemplating the foolishness of this.
Not all pilots may agree with me as they feel this site is a useful network for information and is a pastime for them. It is clear, however, that there is a potential security risk with this site and I would like to register a formal complaint about it. I and many other experienced airmen see this site as serious risk. Those that promote it are clearly naive.
I would like to see the site either closed down. Or, at the very least, become unavailable to the general public. Regardless of any other steps, contributors must be made to fully identify themselves to the site moderators before being allowed to contribute.
I realise that the Internet is a very difficult thing to regulate. I am also aware that if this site were closed then another, perhaps more controversial, site could open in it’s place. Something must be done, however, to prevent restricted and sensitive information reaching parties that may have a sinister use for it. Perhaps now is the time that appropriate legislation to control the Internet is enacted.
Yours faithfully
Sir,
I have just arrived back from operating one of the first flights to operate into the USA since the airspace was reopened and so have not had a chance to read or analyse your email at length. Having said that, I would like to point out that I was immediately struck by your naivety, particulalry considering your claimed position as a DLTR approved aviation security instructor.
Considering that the tragic events of the last few days are still clouded in confusion and 'CNN' type speculation, the fact that you believe that PPRuNe could provide 'priveleged' information that is not available in much greater detail from many other public and official sources shows an ignorance that should be corrected as soon as possible.
Considering the planning that went into these acts of mass murder, including the fact that the terrorists must have had some formal training in a full motion flight simulator, a view I clearly put forward in live interviews on national radio and which has since been confirmed, then you would know the sums of money that must be at the disposal of the group or groups who carried out this horrific attack. If you honestly believe that PPRuNe played a part in educating these people, considering the resources that they have at their disposal, in particulalr using the site to get most of their details from instead of more informative sources then you are truly ignorant of modern day information technology and the internet.
One thing we have always prided ourselves on at PPRuNe is the moderation of the forums and no more so is that visible than in the 'Military Forum'. If you honestly think that the security services are unable to monitor a website like PPRuNe without coming to conclusions about the content and taking the necessary steps to prevent any release of sensitive information then again you are in dire need of some more education about the phenomenon of the Internet.
One thing you should be aware of is the fact that although posters on PPRuNe are anonymous to you, the server log files and IP addresses that I keep are available to any security service should they have the facilities to tap into them. From those a trace can be made and the Internet Service Providor of the user identified, but you knew this didn't you? As far as I am aware I still live in England and the server is in the USA and no laws have been passed that that restrict some of the civil liberites that you and I enjoy. As with all operations connected with PPRuNe, no laws have been broken.
I too am an airline pilot and together with every person who contributes to PPRuNe was as shocked and sickened by the events of last Tuesday. The internet is a double edged sword when it comes to discussing those events and the repercussions on our industry. Unfortunately you seem to believe that we should conduct our business under a black cloak and do not appear to comprehend the saturation of information technology and the internet with the spread of information and how that information empowers all of us. Indeed, many of the organisations you copied your original e-mail to also have websites which also detail information connected with the aviation industry and it's operations, including accident and incidents.
The real problem is, in my view, the massive failure of the various intelligence services that are supposed to be watching out for signs which may point to atrocities such as this being carried out. If they were as intelligent as you then no doubt they too would be reading PPRuNe and either preventing such sensitive information leaking out to organisations that plan on using it to commit more heinous acts of terror or using it to chase up on all those people that are not in the business but have an interest in it.
Having seen the reshaped skyline of Manhattan yesterday, with smoke still rising above the city from as far away as southern Maine, I am offended by your allegations and uneducated fears. Please feel free to reply with some evidence of specific allegations where any information that is not in the public domain has been revealed on PPRuNe and I will take back my comments.
Yours sincerely,
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well here is another administrator/moderator, and one who supports everything that Danny has said and what my colleagues have said, and NOTHING any of the posts have said. Wanna know why? Well I'll tell you anyway.
The problem of moderating PPRuNe is a very heavy tasked one. I personally login at between 6 and 7 every morning and stay for a couple of hours, then at various times during the day. I don't get paid for my efforts. Don't want it. But I have watched this thread for the past two days, and reached the conclusion that it was basically hysterical, overreactive and completely out of synch with reality. What is worrying though, from the looks of the dates that most of you registered on PPRuNe, there is not much idea of what PPRuNe is actually about. You could have been lurkers but that doesn't make any contribution.
Indeed, most of the rants about SOP's and Ops Manual are so far removed from reality I am breathless.
Take manuals. These are, and always have been, easy to acquire, mostly by other airlines who just want to change the current airline operator's name and insert their own. Been done that way for years. How many people who handle manuals have taken them home, well you have to don't you? Maybe YOU have given a sight to a third party, perhaps even allowed them to have longer looks. Or is it even possible that you have allowed one to copied?? It's no good "standing back in amazement" it happens.
So let us have a look at this pontification. StopThink registered yesterday. Did you have much to do with PPRuNe prior, or know what it was about? And the others are equally, with the exception of maxalt, unlikely to have any idea what PPRuNe is really about. A Sim Instructor and like me retired, a computer consultant and one ATP.
PPRuNe has hundreds of Captains, First Officers, Training Captains, Chief Pilots, Cabin Staff, Engineers and people from just about every corner of aviation you can think of. Flying talent abounds on PPRuNe.
I have to say that I think your posts have not been thought through. And losing one's temper get's you no points at all.
PPRuNe is not and never will be a hive of information for a terrorist. The planning for their barbaric act would have taken years and years to implement. Do you think they would have gotten their information on timetables from PPRuNe? Would they have gotten their manuals from PPRuNe, printed in Arabic? But where DID they get them from? Would they have got anything from PPRuNe to help, most unlikely. Everything they did was precise and PPRuNe couldn't help them.
As Danny says, the real problem behind this attack was lack of intelligence. A massive lack of it. Should MI6 have had a look on PPRuNe to find out what was going to happen? Just about as stupid as it can get wouldn't you say.
I think you would be wise to assess what the reality of this very sad event is. PPRuNe did not add to it, and again as Danny says, you point out one item of information that appeared on PPRuNe that helped the terrorists and we will take back everything we say. Remember, you will have to go back years and years.
Forget knee-jerk re-actions and look at the wider picture. Also, you need to have a vast knowledge of aviation and of airlines before you can assume anything. Not even PPRuNe can provide that!!
PPRuNe Pop
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The problem of moderating PPRuNe is a very heavy tasked one. I personally login at between 6 and 7 every morning and stay for a couple of hours, then at various times during the day. I don't get paid for my efforts. Don't want it. But I have watched this thread for the past two days, and reached the conclusion that it was basically hysterical, overreactive and completely out of synch with reality. What is worrying though, from the looks of the dates that most of you registered on PPRuNe, there is not much idea of what PPRuNe is actually about. You could have been lurkers but that doesn't make any contribution.
Indeed, most of the rants about SOP's and Ops Manual are so far removed from reality I am breathless.
Take manuals. These are, and always have been, easy to acquire, mostly by other airlines who just want to change the current airline operator's name and insert their own. Been done that way for years. How many people who handle manuals have taken them home, well you have to don't you? Maybe YOU have given a sight to a third party, perhaps even allowed them to have longer looks. Or is it even possible that you have allowed one to copied?? It's no good "standing back in amazement" it happens.
So let us have a look at this pontification. StopThink registered yesterday. Did you have much to do with PPRuNe prior, or know what it was about? And the others are equally, with the exception of maxalt, unlikely to have any idea what PPRuNe is really about. A Sim Instructor and like me retired, a computer consultant and one ATP.
PPRuNe has hundreds of Captains, First Officers, Training Captains, Chief Pilots, Cabin Staff, Engineers and people from just about every corner of aviation you can think of. Flying talent abounds on PPRuNe.
I have to say that I think your posts have not been thought through. And losing one's temper get's you no points at all.
PPRuNe is not and never will be a hive of information for a terrorist. The planning for their barbaric act would have taken years and years to implement. Do you think they would have gotten their information on timetables from PPRuNe? Would they have gotten their manuals from PPRuNe, printed in Arabic? But where DID they get them from? Would they have got anything from PPRuNe to help, most unlikely. Everything they did was precise and PPRuNe couldn't help them.
As Danny says, the real problem behind this attack was lack of intelligence. A massive lack of it. Should MI6 have had a look on PPRuNe to find out what was going to happen? Just about as stupid as it can get wouldn't you say.
I think you would be wise to assess what the reality of this very sad event is. PPRuNe did not add to it, and again as Danny says, you point out one item of information that appeared on PPRuNe that helped the terrorists and we will take back everything we say. Remember, you will have to go back years and years.
Forget knee-jerk re-actions and look at the wider picture. Also, you need to have a vast knowledge of aviation and of airlines before you can assume anything. Not even PPRuNe can provide that!!
PPRuNe Pop
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WWW and Danny- a sensible, non hysterical response - thank you. Shutting pprune would not solve any problems whatsoever. It would be a blow only for free speech, and not for terrorism.
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Danny
The letter to the SRG may be slightly OTT, but your arrogance in terms of security is astounding. You put down the head of the CAA SRG as if a fool, I take it your exposure at Emerald and elsewhere to security issues makes you and expert on the issue. I am no more an expert than you, but obviously the true exeperts have some concerns.
You have all done such a good job wth this site I believe you understimate its influence. If you are so cock sure, it is very unfortunate, I think this is a sad day for PPrune that you are not even willing to express some concern.
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: flybythread ]
The letter to the SRG may be slightly OTT, but your arrogance in terms of security is astounding. You put down the head of the CAA SRG as if a fool, I take it your exposure at Emerald and elsewhere to security issues makes you and expert on the issue. I am no more an expert than you, but obviously the true exeperts have some concerns.
You have all done such a good job wth this site I believe you understimate its influence. If you are so cock sure, it is very unfortunate, I think this is a sad day for PPrune that you are not even willing to express some concern.
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: flybythread ]
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The security issues being raised on PPRuNe are done so because THIS is the ONLY forum where ALL of us - worldwide - can put our heads together and speak with one voice. To my knowledge no-one has discussed specifically classified information, which in some cases is available only to specific employees - the topics discussed here are something that all airport and airline employees have access to, either directly or indirectly.
Additionally, the manuals containing the sops for company employees are easily obtained from any company office and in most cases employees homes, so why spend hours ploughing through PPRuNe, when the whole lot can be found in one location?
Certainly some of the subjects may "alarm" the public, and new airline recruits, as they might APPEAR to be classified, however for any professional hijack/terrorist group it is stuff with which they will be thoroughly familiar.
I believe it is NECESSARY to publically highlight the weaknesses in our systems NOW, because if WE know about them, you can be sure that our opponents also will be aware.
It is unfortunate that the people who have been made responsible for OUR safety and security are not in consultation with US, but rather, dictate to us their hypotheses.
Airing the overtly deficient areas of security here on PPRuNe is more likely to gain an immediate fix, at a time when Time IS of the essence!
Additionally, the manuals containing the sops for company employees are easily obtained from any company office and in most cases employees homes, so why spend hours ploughing through PPRuNe, when the whole lot can be found in one location?
Certainly some of the subjects may "alarm" the public, and new airline recruits, as they might APPEAR to be classified, however for any professional hijack/terrorist group it is stuff with which they will be thoroughly familiar.
I believe it is NECESSARY to publically highlight the weaknesses in our systems NOW, because if WE know about them, you can be sure that our opponents also will be aware.
It is unfortunate that the people who have been made responsible for OUR safety and security are not in consultation with US, but rather, dictate to us their hypotheses.
Airing the overtly deficient areas of security here on PPRuNe is more likely to gain an immediate fix, at a time when Time IS of the essence!
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Danny is right.
Even if this site did let out secrets, what is to stop someone enrolling in a flight school and getting a job with an airline? Do you think my background was checked when I enrolled at a flight school? (not that I have anything to hide). How do you know your neighbour is not a terrorist? If one of my friends is a terrorist without my knowledge does that stop me from enrolling in a flight school if background checks were to be made?
It is good to see that some people have not lost thier sense of reality during these very difficult times. Do not get me wrong, I am as shocked by this as anyone, and upset and all the other emotions that go along with something so terrible, but let's not lose our heads. If we restricted as much as some people suggest, then we will have lost our freedom that so many people fought so hard for. The world wars killed many times more than the WTC and Pentagon and were more serious on a world scale. They were fought so that we could have our freedoms and a single day in history should not stop that. People knee jerk in times like this and miss important things. If for instance we lock aircraft doors then so we should with passenger liners, trains, juggernauts etc. A thousand people could be killed in a train hijack without any difficulty, but because that has not yet happened, people tend to ignore it. If we close down Pprune then what about all the other sources of information a terrorist could use? It is not just aeroplanes, a terrorist can strike anywhere there is an opportunity. Perhaps we should lock up train spotters just in case?
I have been reading Pprune for years, but posted very little, this is because I normally have nothing to add or because threads are getting too long. As someone who has been affected a great deal by the recent events, both personally and professionally, I don't want to see needless restrictions and closing Pprune is ridiculous in the extreme.
I have every sympathy for those involved and hope we can beat terrorism working together, without arguments between us, frank discussion is important and this is the place for it.
Orni
Even if this site did let out secrets, what is to stop someone enrolling in a flight school and getting a job with an airline? Do you think my background was checked when I enrolled at a flight school? (not that I have anything to hide). How do you know your neighbour is not a terrorist? If one of my friends is a terrorist without my knowledge does that stop me from enrolling in a flight school if background checks were to be made?
It is good to see that some people have not lost thier sense of reality during these very difficult times. Do not get me wrong, I am as shocked by this as anyone, and upset and all the other emotions that go along with something so terrible, but let's not lose our heads. If we restricted as much as some people suggest, then we will have lost our freedom that so many people fought so hard for. The world wars killed many times more than the WTC and Pentagon and were more serious on a world scale. They were fought so that we could have our freedoms and a single day in history should not stop that. People knee jerk in times like this and miss important things. If for instance we lock aircraft doors then so we should with passenger liners, trains, juggernauts etc. A thousand people could be killed in a train hijack without any difficulty, but because that has not yet happened, people tend to ignore it. If we close down Pprune then what about all the other sources of information a terrorist could use? It is not just aeroplanes, a terrorist can strike anywhere there is an opportunity. Perhaps we should lock up train spotters just in case?
I have been reading Pprune for years, but posted very little, this is because I normally have nothing to add or because threads are getting too long. As someone who has been affected a great deal by the recent events, both personally and professionally, I don't want to see needless restrictions and closing Pprune is ridiculous in the extreme.
I have every sympathy for those involved and hope we can beat terrorism working together, without arguments between us, frank discussion is important and this is the place for it.
Orni
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
You put down the head of the CAA SRG as if a fool, I take it your exposure at Emerald and elsewhere to security issues makes you and expert on the issue.
As for Emerald? What on earth are you on about? If you are so afraid and truly believe that there have been breaches of security here on PPRuNe please list them and I will retract my statements. Until then PPRuNe will continue to be a forum for professional pilots to discuss issues that affect them with input from everyone else that has an interest in aviation.
To believe that something that was mentioned on PPRuNe led to these murderers being able to get through security is just preposterous and shows ignorance beyond belief. Try going to a main library in any major city and see what you can find out that has never been mentioned on PPRuNe and would make the hairs on the back of your neck stand out.
Knee-jerk reactions are expected in traumatic time such as these but to put out such nonsense that PPRuNe possibly was used by terrorists to glean information that is so many times easier to find out by going to the library suprises me, especially when it comes from colleagues. I know of several who like our profession to be a black art with little knowledge of our ways available to those outside the sect but with the size of our indistry today and the requirements for entry into it together with the power of the internet for information distribution has made that a thing of the past.
I will reiterate again, the only way to prevent acts of terror occuring on and with aircraft is to prevent the sub-humans who would perpetrate these acts from getting on board them in the first place and that requires huge investment in facilities for the intelligence services so that they are not caught out ever again. Already in the USA they are talking about giving the security services unrestricted access to tap communications.
Whilst we applaud the fight against terrorism we must also not forget the question "who polices the police?".
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Dear Danny & WWW,
Excellent. Well balanced and lots of common sense on your posts. Keep the good job.
Unfortunately, 11 September tragedy will bring a lot of paranoid and hysterical behaviors and measures.
But the terrorists will be enjoying a partial victory if we allow democracy rules be bent into something more like dictatorships.
People asking for control over PPRUNE are as naive as affraid of free speech and, ultimately, democracy itself.
Excellent. Well balanced and lots of common sense on your posts. Keep the good job.
Unfortunately, 11 September tragedy will bring a lot of paranoid and hysterical behaviors and measures.
But the terrorists will be enjoying a partial victory if we allow democracy rules be bent into something more like dictatorships.
People asking for control over PPRUNE are as naive as affraid of free speech and, ultimately, democracy itself.