Manchester Noise Abatement Awards
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
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Scottie,
The point is that a Vor at 60 miles is 1 mile out if you are one dot left or right of the track ( a very minor error) . At that distance it is not possible to fly a departure track accurately. The use of GPS eliminates the problem, but SID's are not generally predicated on the use of GPS.
The point is that a Vor at 60 miles is 1 mile out if you are one dot left or right of the track ( a very minor error) . At that distance it is not possible to fly a departure track accurately. The use of GPS eliminates the problem, but SID's are not generally predicated on the use of GPS.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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sky9
I know where the Honiley VOR is. what I am unsure of though, is the relevance of the HON VOR in flying a WAL SID
The missed point is that there is a VOR on the Airfield to give additional and/or DME information
watp,iktch
I know where the Honiley VOR is. what I am unsure of though, is the relevance of the HON VOR in flying a WAL SID
The missed point is that there is a VOR on the Airfield to give additional and/or DME information
watp,iktch
Join Date: Sep 2000
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There is a lack of track guidance in many of the SIDs for aircraft that do not have the benefit of GPS.
To use sky9's example of the WAL1S, which has a left turn at 2D of almost 120 degrees on to a heading of 300. On this heading, there is no track guidance until intercepting the WAL radial (can't remember which one though!) If you're trying to fly this without the aid of GPS then a very minor error (caused by upper winds maybe) can become a much larger one by the time you've found the WAL radial. If you have GPS you can track to XUMAT or XOBRO or whatever they call the intermediate waypoint thus reducing the risk of error.
I know the airport is keen to promote its "good neighbour" policy but to have a fine system for transgressions based on SIDs that are virtually impossible to fly in anything bigger than a Seneca is a bit rich.
In addition, I believe that turns on SIDs should be made at the DME stated and not anticipated.
PS Do PIA still do the "Heald Green Sidestep" from 06L?
To use sky9's example of the WAL1S, which has a left turn at 2D of almost 120 degrees on to a heading of 300. On this heading, there is no track guidance until intercepting the WAL radial (can't remember which one though!) If you're trying to fly this without the aid of GPS then a very minor error (caused by upper winds maybe) can become a much larger one by the time you've found the WAL radial. If you have GPS you can track to XUMAT or XOBRO or whatever they call the intermediate waypoint thus reducing the risk of error.
I know the airport is keen to promote its "good neighbour" policy but to have a fine system for transgressions based on SIDs that are virtually impossible to fly in anything bigger than a Seneca is a bit rich.
In addition, I believe that turns on SIDs should be made at the DME stated and not anticipated.
PS Do PIA still do the "Heald Green Sidestep" from 06L?
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Join Date: Aug 1999
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Cossack
Good to see you keeping an eye on the 'home' news and views.
Yes, I understand that the Heald Green side-step is still being done by PIA - this coming from one of your collegues at the weekend! Sorry you did mean the probems with sudden crosswinds at low level causing an unanticpated change of direction for just a few seconds, I assume?
Scottie Dog
Good to see you keeping an eye on the 'home' news and views.
Yes, I understand that the Heald Green side-step is still being done by PIA - this coming from one of your collegues at the weekend! Sorry you did mean the probems with sudden crosswinds at low level causing an unanticpated change of direction for just a few seconds, I assume?
Scottie Dog
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Scottie Dog
Of course! I wouldn't be implying that they would be avoiding the noise monitors by employing such a technique, would I?
You've got a busy time ahead, enjoy your hols!
Take care
...you did mean the probems with sudden crosswinds at low level causing an unanticpated change of direction for just a few seconds...
You've got a busy time ahead, enjoy your hols!
Take care
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Scottie dog, honily vor cannot be recieved in the turn or indeed when you first are supposed to lock onto it, the automatics are no different, it is too far away and you are too low.
That, given that ATC at Manchester nearly always give you a level change, turn etc, just as you are getting flaps in, changing power and trying to follow a sid.
Not an issue to the noise people as long as the money comes in.
That, given that ATC at Manchester nearly always give you a level change, turn etc, just as you are getting flaps in, changing power and trying to follow a sid.
Not an issue to the noise people as long as the money comes in.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Just to add to the discussion, from the 5th August the new speed profiling trials will be in effect for south bound departures from MAN & LPL.
Below is an extract from NATS advice
------------------------------------------------
Procedure
The following departure speed profiling procedures shall apply to all departures from Manchester (EGCC) and Liverpool (EGGP) airports when using HON,LISTO and NANTI SIDs. In addition flights can expect to be position tactically in a systemised manner.
Manchester (EGCC): HONILEY 1R , 1Y… LISTO 1R , 1S , 1Y , 1Z
Liverpool (EGGP) NANTI 2T , 2V
Pilots shall fly the following speed profiling as per aircraft groupings:
GROUP 1 Jet aircraft above 35000 kg
( except those listed below )
250 Kts IAS until FL100
280 – 290Kts IAS until FL260
GROUP 2 Non jet and jet aircraft up to 35000 kg &
BA46, RJ series, E135/145, CRJ series etc.
note - full list AIP AD EGCC -6-5
240-250kts until FL260
Note - Pilots SHALL inform ATC prior to departure if they
cannot comply with the above speed profiles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see they gave the old 146 a bit of help!
Below is an extract from NATS advice
------------------------------------------------
Procedure
The following departure speed profiling procedures shall apply to all departures from Manchester (EGCC) and Liverpool (EGGP) airports when using HON,LISTO and NANTI SIDs. In addition flights can expect to be position tactically in a systemised manner.
Manchester (EGCC): HONILEY 1R , 1Y… LISTO 1R , 1S , 1Y , 1Z
Liverpool (EGGP) NANTI 2T , 2V
Pilots shall fly the following speed profiling as per aircraft groupings:
GROUP 1 Jet aircraft above 35000 kg
( except those listed below )
250 Kts IAS until FL100
280 – 290Kts IAS until FL260
GROUP 2 Non jet and jet aircraft up to 35000 kg &
BA46, RJ series, E135/145, CRJ series etc.
note - full list AIP AD EGCC -6-5
240-250kts until FL260
Note - Pilots SHALL inform ATC prior to departure if they
cannot comply with the above speed profiles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see they gave the old 146 a bit of help!
