Plane lands at Air Force base by mistake
Why?
Get them all the time. If SOP says no (wet runway, anti skid channel inop, etc) or the hair standing on the back of my neck stands up I say unable. Otherwise I do it and it increases capacity. Last was in to ORD, cleared to land to hold short of a taxiway some 9000 feet down.
As with anything it has to employed wisely.
Get them all the time. If SOP says no (wet runway, anti skid channel inop, etc) or the hair standing on the back of my neck stands up I say unable. Otherwise I do it and it increases capacity. Last was in to ORD, cleared to land to hold short of a taxiway some 9000 feet down.
As with anything it has to employed wisely.
I'd agree with that - at aerodromes familiar to the operator with established SOPs in place for the aeroplane type.
But an ATC assumption that any commercial air transport category aeroplane operator is automatically able to accept LAHSO is not. Using full reverse and max braking isn't going to be conducive to maintenance costs......and if that leads to a 'hot brakes' incident and call out of the aerdrome fire services, capacity isn't going to be increased much.
So yes, LAHSO can be entirely safe with your sound SOP and airmanship considerations, West C - but I consider that pilots should advise ATC that they are able to accept LAHSO rather than ATC assuming that they can unless advised otherwise.
But an ATC assumption that any commercial air transport category aeroplane operator is automatically able to accept LAHSO is not. Using full reverse and max braking isn't going to be conducive to maintenance costs......and if that leads to a 'hot brakes' incident and call out of the aerdrome fire services, capacity isn't going to be increased much.
So yes, LAHSO can be entirely safe with your sound SOP and airmanship considerations, West C - but I consider that pilots should advise ATC that they are able to accept LAHSO rather than ATC assuming that they can unless advised otherwise.
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, Florida
Age: 69
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No great surprise that they've now been suspended - at least for a while.
<<<Pilots suspended after landing at wrong airport
EAGAN, Minn. (AP) — Two pilots at the controls of a Northwest Airlines flight when it landed at the wrong airport have been suspended from flying pending an investigation, an airline spokesman said Monday.
Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch said the two pilots "have been held from service" until the review is complete. No other details were released.
The flight carrying 117 passengers to Rapid City, S.D., veered off course Saturday and landed at nearby Ellsworth Air Force Base.
The plane remained on the ground for more than three hours as the pilots told Air Force security officers what went wrong, and a new crew was dispatched to continue the flight to Rapid City.
Air Force Lt. Christine Millette said the pilots reported that they were in contact with Rapid City controllers on their approach when they descended into a cloud. When the plane came out of the cloud, the first runway the pilots saw was the one at Ellsworth.
Millette said the two runways are about 7 miles apart and parallel to one another. >>>
On the back-biting subject, I did see Concorde settled to land on a disused (light coloured) runway, on a disused airfield, until the tower pointed out that the runway in use was "the dark coloured one" and "about 10 degrees right of the nose". Impressive Go-around ensued.
<<<Pilots suspended after landing at wrong airport
EAGAN, Minn. (AP) — Two pilots at the controls of a Northwest Airlines flight when it landed at the wrong airport have been suspended from flying pending an investigation, an airline spokesman said Monday.
Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch said the two pilots "have been held from service" until the review is complete. No other details were released.
The flight carrying 117 passengers to Rapid City, S.D., veered off course Saturday and landed at nearby Ellsworth Air Force Base.
The plane remained on the ground for more than three hours as the pilots told Air Force security officers what went wrong, and a new crew was dispatched to continue the flight to Rapid City.
Air Force Lt. Christine Millette said the pilots reported that they were in contact with Rapid City controllers on their approach when they descended into a cloud. When the plane came out of the cloud, the first runway the pilots saw was the one at Ellsworth.
Millette said the two runways are about 7 miles apart and parallel to one another. >>>
On the back-biting subject, I did see Concorde settled to land on a disused (light coloured) runway, on a disused airfield, until the tower pointed out that the runway in use was "the dark coloured one" and "about 10 degrees right of the nose". Impressive Go-around ensued.
In former company many years ago the chief pilot managed to
squeeze his 707 into an Indian Air Force base near the outer marker(Calcutta/Delhi?)
He then realised that all was not well so took off again
that's the way to do it!!
and of course only tea and no bikkies for one back at base! In the same company we had a turbo prop land at a disused military field rather than Belfast Aldergrove(I must admit to the fact that i was nearly caught by that one following an SRA once
squeeze his 707 into an Indian Air Force base near the outer marker(Calcutta/Delhi?)
He then realised that all was not well so took off again
that's the way to do it!!
and of course only tea and no bikkies for one back at base! In the same company we had a turbo prop land at a disused military field rather than Belfast Aldergrove(I must admit to the fact that i was nearly caught by that one following an SRA once
"Using full reverse and max braking isn't going to be conducive to maintenance costs"
I think more in operational considerations than what the bean counters want. That said it wouldn't be that hard to make a case for LAHSO based on fiscal considerations. The money that is coming out of the MX budget is made up by the increase in revenue by the extra flights ORD is able to accommodate because of LAHSO.
"But an ATC assumption that any commercial air transport category aeroplane operator is automatically able to accept LAHSO is not"
It is incumbent upon the operator to advise ATC if they are not able to accept a LAHSO clearance. Usually done (per SOP) on initial check in with approach, otherwise ATC expects compliance with LAHSO as with any other clearance.
"but I consider that pilots should advise ATC that they are able to accept LAHSO rather than ATC assuming that they can unless advised otherwise"
Semantics. Either way, those who can accept the LAHSO clearance do and those who cant don't accept it. Doesn't matter if ATC' working on a default or positive acknowledgment. As I said most SOP's that I am aware of require declining LAHSO early on to allow ATC to go to plan B.
I see LAHSO clearances no differently than I see an enroute crossing restriction. Accept it if you can, decline it if you cant.
I think more in operational considerations than what the bean counters want. That said it wouldn't be that hard to make a case for LAHSO based on fiscal considerations. The money that is coming out of the MX budget is made up by the increase in revenue by the extra flights ORD is able to accommodate because of LAHSO.
"But an ATC assumption that any commercial air transport category aeroplane operator is automatically able to accept LAHSO is not"
It is incumbent upon the operator to advise ATC if they are not able to accept a LAHSO clearance. Usually done (per SOP) on initial check in with approach, otherwise ATC expects compliance with LAHSO as with any other clearance.
"but I consider that pilots should advise ATC that they are able to accept LAHSO rather than ATC assuming that they can unless advised otherwise"
Semantics. Either way, those who can accept the LAHSO clearance do and those who cant don't accept it. Doesn't matter if ATC' working on a default or positive acknowledgment. As I said most SOP's that I am aware of require declining LAHSO early on to allow ATC to go to plan B.
I see LAHSO clearances no differently than I see an enroute crossing restriction. Accept it if you can, decline it if you cant.
I quite agree and that's what I used to do. But the operator, regulating for the lowest common denominator, regrettably said "No LAHSO - the crews aren't familiar enough to use it"...and required crews to make ATC aware of it. Which is what I meant in my first post.
That was 4 years or so ago; now that the word has got around on LAHSO I concede that what you say is correct. Tell them if you're unable to accept (and that may be because the opeator's bean counters won't accept the increased brake wear and engine usage from max rate braking to achieve a LAHSO landing), otherwise you should be expected to comply with a LAHSO clearance.
That was 4 years or so ago; now that the word has got around on LAHSO I concede that what you say is correct. Tell them if you're unable to accept (and that may be because the opeator's bean counters won't accept the increased brake wear and engine usage from max rate braking to achieve a LAHSO landing), otherwise you should be expected to comply with a LAHSO clearance.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Holland
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just after an aircraft had landed at the wrong airport:
TWR controller to captain: "........, what are your intentions, Sir?"
Captain replies: "Eh, ........ I think I'm gonna start a sheepfarm in Australia....."
TWR controller to captain: "........, what are your intentions, Sir?"
Captain replies: "Eh, ........ I think I'm gonna start a sheepfarm in Australia....."
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
NWA fires 2 pilots in landing mistake
Airport confused with military base
September 8, 2004
BY MARTIN J. MOYLAN
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS
Northwest Airlines has fired the pilots who on June 19 mistakenly landed a plane at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota instead of the Rapid City Regional Airport, about 7 miles away.
After the wayward landing, Jay Leno and other comedians poked fun at the carrier on national TV. One Leno barb: "Northwest Airlines announced a new slogan today -- 'Where the hell are we?' "
Initially, Northwest "held from service" the two pilots pending a review of the incident, which is still under investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.
The airline's pilots union revealed the firings Tuesday when asked about the U.S. Air Force's recent release of tapes of June 19 conversations of air traffic controllers at the military base.
The fired Northwest pilots, whom neither the union nor the company would identify, are grieving their dismissal, said Will Holman, spokesman for the Northwest Airlines Air Line Pilots Association. The firings took place about July 20.
"We believe the punishment is excessive," he said. "Since the incident, charts and navigational databases have been modified to clearly show both" airport and air base locations.
He said there "have been several previous instances" of pilot confusion between the Ellsworth Air Force Base and the Rapid City airport. But none, Holman said, involved Northwest pilots.
Northwest would neither confirm nor deny that the pilots have been fired.
The Ellsworth base provides approach and departure guidance to all planes flying within 40 miles.
In response to a request from the Pioneer Press of St. Paul, Minn., the Air Force released tapes of its controllers' communications with and about the Northwest plane. The tapes, which apparently include communications with the Rapid City Regional Airport, indicate that the plane's landing at the base surprised not only its pilots but also air traffic controllers who had been watching it.
The base's airfield was closed, as it normally is on Saturdays.
"We didn't even see him land," says a woman on the tape as she speaks with a serviceman who says security forces were "a little upset" to have the commercial airliner on a runway of the B1 bomber base. And he adds, "Col. Brown is not going to be happy with this one," in an apparent reference to base commander Col. Joseph Brown.
The woman speaking on the tape says that mistaken landings had "almost happened a couple of times earlier today."
The Air Force on Tuesday did not identify her but did say she is not a member of the Air Force.
The problem, she indicates, is that civilian planes follow a radio beacon at the nearby regional airport that takes them over the Air Force base.
"They are basically just guiding off a radio and the radio kind of takes them down the center of runway 14" at the Rapid City airport," she says. "So, when they pop out of the clouds, they see the (Air Force base) runway, they don't trust their instruments and all of a sudden make a dive. And that's basically how it happened."
As airliners near the Air Force base, "their data tag drops off," she says about a broadcast electronic identifier. "So, we can't even see them ... when they are over the runway."
Shortly after landing, a pilot on the Northwest plane asked if he could head for the right airport.
"We made a mistake in landing here instead of Rapid City," he says. "If it's OK with you, we can just depart. Hop over."
But it was more than three hours before the plane, an Airbus 319 with 122 passengers and five crewmembers, was allowed to hop over to Rapid City.
During that time, military officials questioned the crew. Eventually, the captain and first officer were replaced by a different Northwest crew, who flew the plane to Rapid City.
http://www.freep.com/money/business/nwa8e_20040908.htm
Airport confused with military base
September 8, 2004
BY MARTIN J. MOYLAN
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS
Northwest Airlines has fired the pilots who on June 19 mistakenly landed a plane at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota instead of the Rapid City Regional Airport, about 7 miles away.
After the wayward landing, Jay Leno and other comedians poked fun at the carrier on national TV. One Leno barb: "Northwest Airlines announced a new slogan today -- 'Where the hell are we?' "
Initially, Northwest "held from service" the two pilots pending a review of the incident, which is still under investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.
The airline's pilots union revealed the firings Tuesday when asked about the U.S. Air Force's recent release of tapes of June 19 conversations of air traffic controllers at the military base.
The fired Northwest pilots, whom neither the union nor the company would identify, are grieving their dismissal, said Will Holman, spokesman for the Northwest Airlines Air Line Pilots Association. The firings took place about July 20.
"We believe the punishment is excessive," he said. "Since the incident, charts and navigational databases have been modified to clearly show both" airport and air base locations.
He said there "have been several previous instances" of pilot confusion between the Ellsworth Air Force Base and the Rapid City airport. But none, Holman said, involved Northwest pilots.
Northwest would neither confirm nor deny that the pilots have been fired.
The Ellsworth base provides approach and departure guidance to all planes flying within 40 miles.
In response to a request from the Pioneer Press of St. Paul, Minn., the Air Force released tapes of its controllers' communications with and about the Northwest plane. The tapes, which apparently include communications with the Rapid City Regional Airport, indicate that the plane's landing at the base surprised not only its pilots but also air traffic controllers who had been watching it.
The base's airfield was closed, as it normally is on Saturdays.
"We didn't even see him land," says a woman on the tape as she speaks with a serviceman who says security forces were "a little upset" to have the commercial airliner on a runway of the B1 bomber base. And he adds, "Col. Brown is not going to be happy with this one," in an apparent reference to base commander Col. Joseph Brown.
The woman speaking on the tape says that mistaken landings had "almost happened a couple of times earlier today."
The Air Force on Tuesday did not identify her but did say she is not a member of the Air Force.
The problem, she indicates, is that civilian planes follow a radio beacon at the nearby regional airport that takes them over the Air Force base.
"They are basically just guiding off a radio and the radio kind of takes them down the center of runway 14" at the Rapid City airport," she says. "So, when they pop out of the clouds, they see the (Air Force base) runway, they don't trust their instruments and all of a sudden make a dive. And that's basically how it happened."
As airliners near the Air Force base, "their data tag drops off," she says about a broadcast electronic identifier. "So, we can't even see them ... when they are over the runway."
Shortly after landing, a pilot on the Northwest plane asked if he could head for the right airport.
"We made a mistake in landing here instead of Rapid City," he says. "If it's OK with you, we can just depart. Hop over."
But it was more than three hours before the plane, an Airbus 319 with 122 passengers and five crewmembers, was allowed to hop over to Rapid City.
During that time, military officials questioned the crew. Eventually, the captain and first officer were replaced by a different Northwest crew, who flew the plane to Rapid City.
http://www.freep.com/money/business/nwa8e_20040908.htm
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A civvy airliner landing at a military base by mistake is certanly a pretty big boo-boo, but let us not forget the far more worrying implications of the US Air Farce which recently tried to perform a "flypast" to demonstrate its superiority in technological precision warfare using 50 near year old "technology"and uterly modern dumb (f+ck) witted humanology at the Farnborough Airshow...and bored a B52 sized 200ft, 300kt hole through the circuit at Blackbushe, a very civil club and training field some 8 miles to the north...
“People make errors, which lead to accidents. Accidents lead to deaths. The standard solution is to blame the people involved. If we find out who made the errors and punish them, we solve the problem, right?
Wrong. The problem is seldom the fault of an individual; it is the fault of the system. Change the people without changing the system and the problems will continue.”
Quote from Don Norman
Wrong. The problem is seldom the fault of an individual; it is the fault of the system. Change the people without changing the system and the problems will continue.”
Quote from Don Norman
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: posts: 666
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why are euros so afraid of visual approaches. Some of these guys I fly with REQUIRE a nice coloured line on MAP mode linked up to an ILS with a tiny little runway symbol plus speed/altitude inputs and a FMS-calculated profile indication or landing the a/c is simply impossible to compute.
Look outside. See the runway. Land.
Oooooooohhhhhhhh........... but no needles??? How will I know if I'm on slope or aligned with the runway? When should I reduce speed??
Maybe that's what you get when a 200hr pilot goes straight to a 737.
Look outside. See the runway. Land.
Oooooooohhhhhhhh........... but no needles??? How will I know if I'm on slope or aligned with the runway? When should I reduce speed??
Maybe that's what you get when a 200hr pilot goes straight to a 737.
Some more quotes for you safetypee:
“Human error is a symptom of trouble deeper inside a system”
“a good safety culture is one which allows the boss to hear the bad news.”
Dr. Sidney Dekker
“Honest and critical self-assessment is one of the most powerful tools that management can employ to measure flight safety margins.”
Flight Safety Foundation Icarus Committee May 1999.
“Every accident is a failure of organization.”
“Errors…are shaped and provoked by upstream workplace and organizational factors. Identifying an error is merely the beginning of the search for causes, not the end.”
James Reason, Managing the Risks of Organizational Accidents, 1997.
“…we need to change one of the biggest historical characteristics of aviation safety improvements - our reactive nature. We must get in front of accidents … anticipate them …and use hard data to detect problems and disturbing trends.”
FAA Administrator Marion C. Blakey Charting the Next Century of Aviation Safety North American Safety Conference Atlanta, Georgia Feb 5, 2003
Air-hag, ‘euros’ are not afraid of visual approaches; they just don’t make so many mistakes when the weather is bad.
“Human error is a symptom of trouble deeper inside a system”
“a good safety culture is one which allows the boss to hear the bad news.”
Dr. Sidney Dekker
“Honest and critical self-assessment is one of the most powerful tools that management can employ to measure flight safety margins.”
Flight Safety Foundation Icarus Committee May 1999.
“Every accident is a failure of organization.”
“Errors…are shaped and provoked by upstream workplace and organizational factors. Identifying an error is merely the beginning of the search for causes, not the end.”
James Reason, Managing the Risks of Organizational Accidents, 1997.
“…we need to change one of the biggest historical characteristics of aviation safety improvements - our reactive nature. We must get in front of accidents … anticipate them …and use hard data to detect problems and disturbing trends.”
FAA Administrator Marion C. Blakey Charting the Next Century of Aviation Safety North American Safety Conference Atlanta, Georgia Feb 5, 2003
Air-hag, ‘euros’ are not afraid of visual approaches; they just don’t make so many mistakes when the weather is bad.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“they just don’t make so many mistakes when the weather is bad.”
Say old buddy, you might read this entire thread about the many mistakes your Euro pilots admitted to and related about. Ain’t none of us perfect and anybody with more than a few thousand hours will admit, “But for the grace of God, or good old plain dumb luck, go I.”
These guys made a mistake, I don’t think they should have gotten fired over this incident. Demoted and retrained yes, but not fired.
PS I got 21,000 hours, how much you got?
Say old buddy, you might read this entire thread about the many mistakes your Euro pilots admitted to and related about. Ain’t none of us perfect and anybody with more than a few thousand hours will admit, “But for the grace of God, or good old plain dumb luck, go I.”
These guys made a mistake, I don’t think they should have gotten fired over this incident. Demoted and retrained yes, but not fired.
PS I got 21,000 hours, how much you got?
I call you back
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alpha quadrant
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air-hag
Why are euros so afraid of visual approaches.
I rather keep safe and keep my job rather than lose it trying to prove something pointless to no-one in particular.
A guy at the airline told me that the Airbus crew doing the VOR approach into RAP was a bit high for the distance from Ellsworth after spotting the tempting runway, and pushed the nose over during what must have become an unstable approach.
And there are contradictions between what was in the crew's safety reports and what was learned form studying ATC tapes.
Any attempt to cover-up the truth or seriously distort facts about an incident can often result in a company firing (sacking) you. The one thing that saved another turbofan Captain from being fired years ago (landing in IMC on the wrong parallel runway) was that he told the whole truth. Look, there is too much info available to allow you to cover things up, and it is not considered responsible or honest. Don't even think about it, unless indepedently wealthy. Too many facts working against you (possibly the other pilot!), so (s)he can save his professional skin.
And there are contradictions between what was in the crew's safety reports and what was learned form studying ATC tapes.
Any attempt to cover-up the truth or seriously distort facts about an incident can often result in a company firing (sacking) you. The one thing that saved another turbofan Captain from being fired years ago (landing in IMC on the wrong parallel runway) was that he told the whole truth. Look, there is too much info available to allow you to cover things up, and it is not considered responsible or honest. Don't even think about it, unless indepedently wealthy. Too many facts working against you (possibly the other pilot!), so (s)he can save his professional skin.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK South Coast
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m sorry but this kind of thing by an airline is TOTALLY unacceptable. Don’t Northwest have SOPs? What the f@@@ were ATC doing? Surely there is radar in and around KRAP to monitor activity? Landing a Cessna at the wrong airfield I can understand – you don’t have a lot to help guide when compared to a modern digital commercial airliner with IRS/INS/GPS whatever Northwest have chosen to install. What plates were they reading? Surely a 7nm error in their mental picture should have triggered some alarm bells. My Company SOPs are very straight forward and insist on crosschecking all the time on an approach, instrument or visual. We do the crosschecking ALL the time even when going into our home base. I just find this kind of thing totally unacceptable in 2004. ATC should so also take the blame here. Amazing!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the 60's, a lot of RAF Britannia transport pilots were known to be arrogant sh*ts, since they were at the top of the pile next to the Comet Guys [who were an ok bunch]. I don't know what it was about them, but they sure acted like Gods.
One fine sunny afternoon at Scampton, we were expecting a Brit trainer to shoot some circuits and he duly called for joining clearance. Runway 23, etc details passed. A short time later he called finals to roll, but none of us could see him. Just then, the tower-tower link from Waddington [runway 21, 10 miles south] asked if we knew anything about a Britannia who wasn't talking to them.
The penny dropped, and the Scampton controller politely and matter-of-fact advised the pilot that he suspected he was lined up on short finals at Waddington. A blistering and very rude reply was received to the effect that how dare the controller question his prowess, etc, etc.
Without batting an eyelid, the controller said [words to the effect] that if that aircraft so much as grazes the runway in front of him right now, he [the controller] would personally telephone the Commander-in Chief of Transport Command, complete with Captain's name, and report the unauthorised entry into Bomber Command airspace, together with the violation of a bookful of air traffic procedures.
Not another word heard from the aircraft as it overshot Waddington, called them and apologised before departing direct to wherever [Lyneham, I think].
One fine sunny afternoon at Scampton, we were expecting a Brit trainer to shoot some circuits and he duly called for joining clearance. Runway 23, etc details passed. A short time later he called finals to roll, but none of us could see him. Just then, the tower-tower link from Waddington [runway 21, 10 miles south] asked if we knew anything about a Britannia who wasn't talking to them.
The penny dropped, and the Scampton controller politely and matter-of-fact advised the pilot that he suspected he was lined up on short finals at Waddington. A blistering and very rude reply was received to the effect that how dare the controller question his prowess, etc, etc.
Without batting an eyelid, the controller said [words to the effect] that if that aircraft so much as grazes the runway in front of him right now, he [the controller] would personally telephone the Commander-in Chief of Transport Command, complete with Captain's name, and report the unauthorised entry into Bomber Command airspace, together with the violation of a bookful of air traffic procedures.
Not another word heard from the aircraft as it overshot Waddington, called them and apologised before departing direct to wherever [Lyneham, I think].