How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?

[MystiCKal]

I'm about to dive into the same hole as most current ATPL holders. I'll probably be stuck after pilot education with a big ASS loan and constant nagging of my family of why I did this in the first place...

Well, even though a job may not be immenent. My dream is to fly. Doesn't matter if it's in a Cessna or a Boeing or an Airbus for that matter. I'd like to sit up their in the cockpit one day sipping some coffee as the captain of the fleet. The odds of that happening is 1:1.000.000. But still I will not give up this dream of mine. If I was down to my last penny, I'd use it to fly. Guess I don't have the experience of having a family since the financial aspect is different than mine. I just need to support myself.... But as long as I'm independent, my last penny will be spent on flying....

[crazypilot]

Just to give my brief opinion - what it's worth I don't know ---

Flying is and always will remain something special when compared with many, if not most ofther professions. Whether this be in a dinky little Piper Warrior flying out of EGTC now and again (weather depending) to do a short x-country over to Gloucestershire or out of EGLL for a longhaul flight over to the US, flying, in whatever form it may be is still a lot more interesting than most jobs.

My opinion -- having trained as a pilot (although not one now) and having many close friends who are pilots - some are shorthaul F/Os with low-cost carriers in the UK, some are Captains with the aforesaid, one is a longhaul 777 pilot with EK, another a Chief Pilot for an executive jet company - they all love flying, but their job satisfaction varies greatly, so I think people really need to take a long hard look at basically who they are working for.

What I am trying to say is that at the end of the day, flying is flying, the job satisfaction, pay, rostering, hours flown, aircraft flown, whatever depends on their company entirely, so I think it's pretty difficult to come up with an overall conclusion of the job in an overall state, there are so many variables, although true, as we keep hearing and most definitely believe, the lifestyle associated with being a pilot has changed a great deal and I think it is very unlikely that the welcoming conditions of work and pay that used to be associated with the job will ever return.

There will always be new pilots wanting to fly commercially and with the low-cost carriers quite obviously taking over and transforming the industry (and thereby affecting how the incumbent BA-type carriers also operate), I don't think O'Leary and Co are ever going to back down -- they are going to continue to offer cheap prices, attract customers and keep stimulating demand by keeping costs low -- which boils down to low labour costs and high crew utilisation. Just the way it is unfortunately.

If you look at the job of a pilot compared with most others -- even within the aviation industry, it is still pretty good, well-paid (pilots contrary to what is said in this discussion still earn more than a sizeable proportion of airline management) and the hours pilots work is still less than that of the airline's ground employees. Working in airline management requires just as much training and commitment as does being a pilot, as does any other position you may be in. Everyone else also works just as hard but that is something we have to all live with --- we wouldn't all be working in this industry if we didn't still enjoy it.

As for me, yeah I work in the industry, earn good money, work hard (only get to check PPRuNE occasionally as opposed to everyday a few years back), and enjoy my job. I still fly but only in light aircraft and the aerobatics still feeds the buzz for flying that I always get.

Admittedly though -- surely flying has to still be better than working for a living...

Best regards to you all...

CP

[Desk-pilot]

Desirable job

I'm an ex BA Manager who left a comfortable well paid job to pay for my own ATPL course because all my life I have wanted to be a pilot. The attractions are:

I Love flying aeroplanes
I love travelling and seeing new places
I love the fact that it's a job with defined parameters ie when the flight is finished you go home rather than taking problems home
I love the fact flying gives you a greater degree of flexibility over where you live because you work shift hours and don't have to live within commuting distance of a big city centre
I believe even now in many companies such as BA/Virgin/Channel Express etc pilots are respected
I love the fact that there is always something new to learn about flying whereas most office jobs don't really require much ongoing learning
It still has glamour due to the uniforms and the travel - I know I will feel desperately proud the day I first wear an airline uniform.

However, I worry that the likes of O'Leary are treating pilots so badly that this could spread to other operators and even diminish safety. I will have sunk over £100000 into this career change (with loss of earnings for 18 months plus training costs) and it's not a very good investment in purely financial terms - it will be some years before I am even financially back where I was.

Would I do it again - yes, but I do feel that it isn't quite the job it once was - ten years ago there was a possibility of long layovers in Mauritius etc earning £90000 a year, but now it's looking more like £30000 a year for shuttling to Europe 3 times a day which isn't quite the same!!

Desk-pilot

[MorningGlory]

In early 2000, already owning a ppl and having researched my 'idea' and come up with a plan over a period of around 2 yrs, I made the jump. I left a professional and reasonably well-paid job as an engineer to change careers to be a pilot.

Everybody thought I was mad, BUT most seemed to have a certain amount of admiration for my bravery, infact I remember one individual calling it a hoop dream.. (always makes me smile when I think of that..!)

Well, here I am, jet pilot, burning fuel everyday in the skies of Europe. Is it as desirable as I perceived it to be? On some days yes; early morning sunrise over the Alps blue skies and a perfect landing makes you feel great inside, (something I never felt as an engineer). When parents ask if their kids can have a look in the flight deck, when you know they really just want to have a look themselves and ask more questions than the kids, makes you realise there is a little mystery and desire left in the job.

Other days No, it can be a pain. Delays (especially at night) means home late, cabin crew in a bad mood (frequent) can make a big difference to your day, and the occasional passenger who thinks they can operate the aircraft better than the crew. That infact is one of my pet hates; you do occasionally come across idiots like that, people who think they can fly the 60t jet they are sitting in just because they have done 3 flying lessons in a cessna, or worse the ones that always say 'its easy, all you have to do is push a few buttons'.

Well if it was that easy everyone would be doing it, and I would be earning less now than I was when I was an engineer! Some of the arrogant ignorance is astounding, those people have no idea of the continual thought processes, study and training involved in hauling their sorry asses 1000nms to sunnier skies for their hols every year.

I was very proud the first time I wore my uniform in public at the airport, the 'head held high' feeling. Really dawning on me I was actually working for an airline when driving out of the car park and in a surreal kind of way noticing the gold braid stripes on my jacket sleeves. Proud of my own efforts and achievements, by being able to laugh in the face of adversity and come out the other side winning, by never giving up, and dusting myself off after a fall and carrying on, and above all always believing that everyday that goes by is a day closer to my dream becoming reality. It worked!

Would I do it again? Oh yes, I love my job, but above all, I love it even more because of what I had to give up to achieve it (house, £80K and a lot of time with friends and family). It doesn't stop here though, working towards the left seat and will achieve an MSc within the next 5yrs.

Best of luck to you all, I hope you have as great a time as I have achieving my dream!

[Max Angle]

Nice post Morning Glory, despite my rather cynical outlook I echo most of what you said. My only problem is that 12 years on I still enjoy the flying but wish I could do about 1/3 of the hours for the same money!. Not much chance of that so will probably settle for 1/2 the hours and 1/2 the money at some point in the future.

[MorningGlory]

true.. when I remove the rose tinted glasses at midnight after a late, I notice the bags under my eyes are growing month by month, so 1/3hrs for the same money would be very nice indeed!

[7-Zark-7]

I say - Beautiful post Morning Glory! You worked hard and deserve the best bud. Really proud of you!

7z7

[Barnstormer1982]

I guess it still is!

I've tried to get into the Luftwaffe back in 2001 when I was doing my army service, was rejected by my base's doc ("they never take you"), left the service, applied for the Lufthansa ab initio scheme, was not taken as the psychos found I was "too ambitious to be just a pilot" (), started my studies for a business degree, applied for the Luftwaffe again as someone told me my good old army doc had told me crap, went thru the selection next to my exams (all 8 weeks at my business school) and my job, was recommended for a FJ slot (psychos this time: "perfect fit into EFA profile"), did not get my bang seat medical for insurance reasons ("ten years ago you would have been in!"), was planned in for a A400M-slot, decided not to take it in June 2004 this year as I was afraid to quit my civil studies for the Luftwaffe officer training, started a placement with a company which other business degree students would cut both their left and right arms off for, found that it is not the right thing for me, and re-applied for a new slot in 2005.

It really depends on what kind of person you are, but if flying is what you feel what you were born for (I soloed at 14) - do it. Otherwise get some business degree and hang around in the office with nice girls and talk about your new flip-flops and the last gay parade.

[RAT 5]

Each to their own, but I feel civil flying is a way of life not simply a wage earner. The trouble is that the spectrum of 'way of life' is vast and you have no idea which one might offer itself when you set out on the road to your dreams.

There is one sure way and that is via the sponsored scheme of a paticular airline.

However, more often than not you will be disappointed. If flying for fun is what you want, strongly consider joining a profession that pays well, is predictable in its nature of what future you can expect, offers advancement and variety and guarantees enough time off to follow your pastimes and dreams. Then join a group of enthusiasts with their own aeroplane, perhaps an upside down inside out variety, and go and fly for FUN when you want to and where you want with whom you want to.

[aagg]

Man I wish you pilots would stop winding ! I always admired the job of a pilot untill I discovered PPRUN.
You guys have the best jobs on earth. You stay in great hotels all over the world. Every day you go to 'work', you go on another holiday!
You do not know what it is to do a real job!
And how high would your aeroplanes get off the ground if the check-in staff where not there, or the engineers did not sign out the aircraft, or the marketing department did not sell tickets, or the baggage handlers did not load the aircraft ? I should not mention the words, "glorified bus drivers" ? Sorry!!
You are just part of a team and part of a huge company.
If you realy want to get rich, you will have to bite the bullet and start you own business (own airline like Nikki Lauda did) ! Then you will find out what real pressures are! Not just raking in huge salaries without knowing where the money comes from.
Enjoy your next holidays !!!

[Easy Glider]

Holiday !!!!! well my holidays usually consist of moving from stand 15 to stand 16 at LGW via Tenerife or Dalaman all in the space of one day.

[spy]

aagg

Pilots love to complain! But it has to be said your description of the job shows you have little grasp on the reality of the job. In the main it is long hours of boredom broken by very busy periods and the occasional periods of organised mayhem.

I wish my job was one long holiday but sorry to shatter your illusions it is not, which is not to say I don’t get the odd nice trip in a good hotel but those trips are few and far between and mostly it is the Greek islands in the middle of the night.

Do I think the good outweighs the bad? Yes, or I would give it up and do something else. However, the changing world in which we live in has made it a much less desirable job. The locked cockpit door and low cost airlines have eroded the status and perks of the job and frankly you can earn more and enjoy a better life style in many other careers these days. The locked cockpit door has cut us of from the passengers and to some extent the crew. I for one miss meeting my passengers!

Is it the best job in the world? It is for me as I am not talented enough to earn a living as a Musician or lucky enough to be an Astronaut. It also depends on each individual as to what the best job in the world is, a good friend of mine works for the National Trust and would not swap jobs with me for all the tea in China.

Frankly PPrune has done nothing for the image of the pilot community but one thing is true aviation attracts some of the best and worst characters, so do not judge the industry and those who work in it from the posts on these forums. Most of my colleagues never visit this site. I like to chip in every now and then but most are not interested and have a certain distain for this site. It has its place but it does not often reflect the opinions of most in the profession only those who like me like the sound of their own voice!

[Cap 56]

The locked cockpit door and low cost airlines have eroded the status and perks of the job and frankly you can earn more and enjoy a better life style in many other careers these days.

I would say that the standards to get into the profession have eroded.

Taking into account the responsibility one can not deny that this can only be complied with if the knowledge is up to speed with it.

In the 1970 and 1980 over 50 % of the pilots in the country I graduated from had a degree. ATPL courses took more than one year with a full day lesson plan.

Today it’s very different we have become buss drivers without culture or any significant in depth knowledge of what we are really doing hence, less respect.
Flying for a low cost or not makes no differance it's the CAA that sets the standards.

Cockpit open or closed is a silly argument.

I am sure if standards would be raised again you would get a completely different picture.

[spy]

Well having been around the industry for a few decades and in training, I cannot agree with your claim that standards have dropped! A degree whilst very nice to have is no guarantee of ones intelligence or ability in any profession and certainly not in aviation. If anything the standard in some areas has improved, no one man and his dog operations these days, at least not in the UK. Take a look at accident rates now and twenty or thirty years ago!

To you the locked cockpit door may be a silly argument, to many it is just one more erosion of our life style. I would not argue with your claim that the CAA sets the standard but the airlines maintain them.

Sounds like intellectual snobbery to me CAP, and yes I do have a degree!

[Africa Dog]

You guys moan about your hours and roster(pax crews),came over to cargo flying and see how it done,only good thing about long haul is all the different local woman you can get to keep you warm during your stop over.

[fokker1000]

Haven't read all the above for obvious reasons....
My question is, would we carry on doing it if we won £5M on the lottery?
I'd keep on flying, but not commercially.

The thought of pulling the aircarft of my choice out of the hangar at the time that I wish to blast off is still appealing rather than having to do a night HER or a min rest SFD, or a night ACE or TFS or DLM or BJV or etc etc....
Sorry folks, it's been a long few weeks.... Now where's the keys to my P51
..Umph, close to P45 I guess........
Fly safe, and greasy landings.

[kala87]

As has already been pointed out, the status and conditions of all professions has taken a downwards lurch in recent years, not just in airline flying.

I fly GA aircraft for business and fun, but my profession is in oil exploration. Here's part of my itinerary for a business trip:

Check in for at LHR for flight to Mexico City via Washington DC. Bumped off flight. Rebooked on other flight. Flight cancelled. Rebooked via Chicago. Lengthy delays in grossly overcrowded T3. Arrive Chicago. Attempt to check in for Mexico. Ticket is for wrong flight, have to rebook. Wait 8 hours in terminal until 2am departure time. Only food available is of vile junk variety. Flight delayed by snowstorm. Eventually arrive in MEX in early morning. Rush to domestic check-in. Miss onward connection due to late arrival. Lug suitcase miles down terminal hall (7500 ft altitude taking its toll) to Mexicana booking office. Get some Spanish practice trying to rebook flight with clerk who has little English. Eventually arrive at destination hours late, not a minute's sleep all night. Boss none too pleased at late arrival, demands I produce complex technical report right now. Finish report 8 hours later, completely knackered. Boss wants business dinner...etc...etc...

Of course, all the flying was in economy class and company is too mean to pay for business class. I haven't had a business class seat for the last 10 years. (bean counters don't approve)

All this, in an industry that is awash with cash.

I know the aviation industry well enough and hear stories from airline pilot friends to know just how stressful professional flying can be. And I'm fully aware how salaries and conditions in the airline industry have deteriorated in recent years. But it's a similar story in most industries for professionals of all backgrounds. Basically, we're just a commodity to be bought at the lowest possible price.

Even so, do I wish I made a career change to professional flying when I had the chance about 20 years ago? Yes, definately yes.

[Cap 56]

The opinion that was agreed upon was that a degree in exact sciences is proof that one can absorb a lot of information in a short time and that one has common sense.

It does not prove everything but it is substantial proof that one remains stress resistant.

On top of this, some good to very good psychomotor skills need to be present and a personality profile that meets the required criteria.

All the aforementioned criteria have deteriorated mainly because the job has become easier and training has been commercialized.

ATPL has become a multiple choice with no longer any requirement of in depth knowledge. This can not be compensated during training in the Airlines and is a basic responsibility of the CAA.

[sheenboy]

so....

let me sum this up

if you are quite brainy and really want to be a pilot thats what you do

if you are really brainy and want to make money you're not a pilot!!

[Cap 56]

That's correct unless you love to fly for a living.