View Poll Results: How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Only if you're on long haul
135
11.23%
Not very. We're just 'drivers' locked in our cockpits
436
36.27%
It is still glamorous... or at least the idea of it is
494
41.10%
Have you seen my roster? Zzzz...
165
13.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1202. This poll is closed
How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAT5
I would love to roster a Pilot 4 earlies or 4 lates or 4 nights then 3-4 days off but CAP371 stands in the way of me doing so. If you get rid of the early / late rules then ANYTHING is possible.
In general most Pilots would be up for this as well. I can only hope that either the new EU FTL or a shift in policy from the CAA
will see us in agreement...
(and its 4 on 3 off for shift workers unless you think finishing at 0700 is an off day!)
And i'mnot so angry these days either!
I would love to roster a Pilot 4 earlies or 4 lates or 4 nights then 3-4 days off but CAP371 stands in the way of me doing so. If you get rid of the early / late rules then ANYTHING is possible.
In general most Pilots would be up for this as well. I can only hope that either the new EU FTL or a shift in policy from the CAA
will see us in agreement...
(and its 4 on 3 off for shift workers unless you think finishing at 0700 is an off day!)
And i'mnot so angry these days either!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A of P.
What a pleasure, again.
One solution is to register your company in Ireland, and that removes the 3 consecutive early/late problem. (tongue in cheek)
However, what I have also been suggesting is a 2 early, 2 late 4 days off suggestion. Under CAP371, in paticular, this would allow the required 2 days off, give rostering quite a bit of flexibility with the start & finish times, and, if the roster operates to plan, give the crews some decent quality time off having produced the required amount of grind during the 4 days of shifts.
I just think that the whole process needs a radical re-think. This idea that a few cosmetic changes will produce an ideal solution is nonsense. The idea that one set of rules can work for long/short schedule/charter, major/lowcost is rubbish. There need to be some limits, as we have seen in the past the unscrupulous operators have very feudal & medieval attitudes. But, big but, the best guideline is common sense, mutual concensious between crews and management, and some degree of personal choice. This will work but does not seem to exist.
The one group of workers who have the best long term interest in the success of the airline are the pilots. No doubt. They do not want to change jobs every few years. They want to stay with a good employer and play with their toys. P@#s them off and they will leave. That serves nobody's interest; and yet they are seldom listened to without a fight. Daft! They are often the best source of that allusive common sense we all seek, and it's free. I just wish someone would give it a try.
Amazingly everyone quotes South West as the model to follow. Sadly, all they copy is the financial and ticketing structure. It is frequently voted one of the best US companies to work for, by the empoyees. They work hard and are well rewarded, both in income and time off. For some unknown reason all the eurpoean copy cats only cheery pick the greedy financial bits they think will line their pockets, and forget about the rest of the foundational model. Bit like England picking 11 players and expecting them to paly like Brazil. There's more to it that that.
What a pleasure, again.
One solution is to register your company in Ireland, and that removes the 3 consecutive early/late problem. (tongue in cheek)
However, what I have also been suggesting is a 2 early, 2 late 4 days off suggestion. Under CAP371, in paticular, this would allow the required 2 days off, give rostering quite a bit of flexibility with the start & finish times, and, if the roster operates to plan, give the crews some decent quality time off having produced the required amount of grind during the 4 days of shifts.
I just think that the whole process needs a radical re-think. This idea that a few cosmetic changes will produce an ideal solution is nonsense. The idea that one set of rules can work for long/short schedule/charter, major/lowcost is rubbish. There need to be some limits, as we have seen in the past the unscrupulous operators have very feudal & medieval attitudes. But, big but, the best guideline is common sense, mutual concensious between crews and management, and some degree of personal choice. This will work but does not seem to exist.
The one group of workers who have the best long term interest in the success of the airline are the pilots. No doubt. They do not want to change jobs every few years. They want to stay with a good employer and play with their toys. P@#s them off and they will leave. That serves nobody's interest; and yet they are seldom listened to without a fight. Daft! They are often the best source of that allusive common sense we all seek, and it's free. I just wish someone would give it a try.
Amazingly everyone quotes South West as the model to follow. Sadly, all they copy is the financial and ticketing structure. It is frequently voted one of the best US companies to work for, by the empoyees. They work hard and are well rewarded, both in income and time off. For some unknown reason all the eurpoean copy cats only cheery pick the greedy financial bits they think will line their pockets, and forget about the rest of the foundational model. Bit like England picking 11 players and expecting them to paly like Brazil. There's more to it that that.
Alba Gu Brath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rat5
Don't think your solution would go down well with the bean counters. Under your proposal it is 6 days on 4 days off. Nearly all of our wave 1 departures involve a duty start before 0600 local so you've got a blank day before your run of duties. All of our wave 2 / 3 flights are getting back after midnight so you've got another blank day before going into days off.
Rostering are too often faced with impossible scheduling combinations. Your opinions on the following please
Mon = Day off
Tue = 0600 report LGW-LPA-LGW off duty 1810
Wed = Min rest finishes at 0620 local. 2 flights too chose from, 0600 LGW-TFS or 1755 LGW-ACE.
The TFS cannot be rostered as it is a breach of min rest. The MAH is into the 18-30 hrs rest period which should be 'avoided'. So the question is, what do we give our man on Wed?
Don't think your solution would go down well with the bean counters. Under your proposal it is 6 days on 4 days off. Nearly all of our wave 1 departures involve a duty start before 0600 local so you've got a blank day before your run of duties. All of our wave 2 / 3 flights are getting back after midnight so you've got another blank day before going into days off.
Rostering are too often faced with impossible scheduling combinations. Your opinions on the following please
Mon = Day off
Tue = 0600 report LGW-LPA-LGW off duty 1810
Wed = Min rest finishes at 0620 local. 2 flights too chose from, 0600 LGW-TFS or 1755 LGW-ACE.
The TFS cannot be rostered as it is a breach of min rest. The MAH is into the 18-30 hrs rest period which should be 'avoided'. So the question is, what do we give our man on Wed?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAT 5
The pleasure is mine also.
Yes, register in Ireland would be nice, are we in agreement that the early / late rules cause the problem?. How about 4 earlies, or 4 lates or 4 nights like the rest of Europe...
As Big T says how do you work an early when it starts b4 0600 and wot about a late that ends after midnight?. Do you want a rest day, two earlies, 2 lates, a rest day followed by 4 off?.
Or 2 days off instead of the 4 to cover the 2 rest days, but then sneaky airlines would turn those rest days into flying or sby.
THINK the bean counters would need a few more crews
The pleasure is mine also.
Yes, register in Ireland would be nice, are we in agreement that the early / late rules cause the problem?. How about 4 earlies, or 4 lates or 4 nights like the rest of Europe...
As Big T says how do you work an early when it starts b4 0600 and wot about a late that ends after midnight?. Do you want a rest day, two earlies, 2 lates, a rest day followed by 4 off?.
Or 2 days off instead of the 4 to cover the 2 rest days, but then sneaky airlines would turn those rest days into flying or sby.
THINK the bean counters would need a few more crews
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "Southwest Model"
Yep I agree with the modelling on Southwest bit
I was given a paper last year from a student from Harvard who had written an article about the success of Southwest
It makes very interesting reading and bears no resemblance to our LCCs over here except on the financial side
On the personnel side we are worlds apart and I don't know of any LCC in Europe where troops are motivated, passionate and commited to their Company - and that is a huge element and management seem to be totally oblivious to it (except a Going somewhere airline that became orange unfortunately)
I was given a paper last year from a student from Harvard who had written an article about the success of Southwest
It makes very interesting reading and bears no resemblance to our LCCs over here except on the financial side
On the personnel side we are worlds apart and I don't know of any LCC in Europe where troops are motivated, passionate and commited to their Company - and that is a huge element and management seem to be totally oblivious to it (except a Going somewhere airline that became orange unfortunately)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having mulled over this question many a time I think it all depends on our unique experiences and who we work for
Me - well I wouldn't do it again if I could turn the clock back - the job has changed so much and is not what I aspired to when I started training - glorified bus driver in a cell for 10 hours
My husband - would do it again and loves it - but very different company who treat everyone respectfully with top notch benefits and excellent lifestyle
It is all in the luck of the draw but certainly I couldn't recruit people into the industry anymore and rave about it - the actual job is good but all the other bull**** drags it down too much
Me - well I wouldn't do it again if I could turn the clock back - the job has changed so much and is not what I aspired to when I started training - glorified bus driver in a cell for 10 hours
My husband - would do it again and loves it - but very different company who treat everyone respectfully with top notch benefits and excellent lifestyle
It is all in the luck of the draw but certainly I couldn't recruit people into the industry anymore and rave about it - the actual job is good but all the other bull**** drags it down too much
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr. A of P. & Big T.
Your responses are noted, and I understand the problems. The basis of what I'm saying is that the whole matter of FTL's needs a total new re-think. Start with a clean sheet of paper. Tinkering with the present system, and making cosmetic and minor changes, will not achieve the desired solution for anyone.
There need to be basic rules, based on social attitude and common sense. Each operator has a unique set of circumstances. In the past the major schedule carriers, short-haul, didn't takeoff before 0730, and didn't land much after 22.00. Now, with LCA's trying to squeeze extra sectors into each day, they start earlier and finish later. This infringes the early start/late finish rules and the Days Off regulations. This causes rosters problems with efficiency and I'm sure does not help the crew, as the limits become targets and the 'Spirit' is no where to be seen. But, remember the earl/late issue is unique to UK.
Management will always exploit the rules to maximise productivity, and to write one set of rules to cover all the operations is impossible.
I would have thought that a simple set of rules that covers maximum length of day/night duty; maximim hours in a 7 day period & month, minimum rest between duties and minimum total rest in blocks of days; allowance for time changes; is not beyond the wit of man. It applies in most other jobs.
Within these boundaries a roster buffer of X% is built in to allow for delays. i.e. you roster to 80% of the max rather than extend the max with discretion.
After that, why can not the managment sit down with the crews and devise a mutually agreed set of human rules best suited to their own operation. Operations change with routes, a/c and expansion. The company FTL's need to be flexible. (I once flew for a short-haul charter airline who had a template in their roster. They then flew long-haul charter and tried to use the same template. Daft. The only way it worked was to consider days down route in the Days Off calculation.)The crews have a longterm interest in the profitability and survival of their airline. They are intelligent to understand the concept of productivity, and after all, do like flying. They will not have anything to gain by demanding more than the airline can afford. If they want more, they are often the best people to suggest ways to expand the pie so as to get a bigger slice. Sadly, this never happens. I have never heard of an honestly rewarded suggestion scheme in any LCA. Surely these young airlines have a wealth of untapped experience in the ranks. There are so many ideas out there about how to improve finances in so many areas, and have a better life style at the same time. Sadly there is great mistrust of pilots' suggestions on money savings. Thus there are no suggestion schemes, unlike so many other industries.
If honest discussions were held, with open minds, the productivity - lifestyle issue would take a couple of days to sort out. It ain't rocket science. It's the beligerence of management that turns it into a totally unnecessary battle. Such a waste of energy and creator of low morale.
However, there needs to be the afor mentioned common sense criteria. Unfortunately, as the working time of most other workers has reduced/improved, the engineers have designed a/c which fly longer. The bean counters want, and have already achieved in some instances, an expansion of duty times to match the a/c performance. Note the EU proposals for JAA FTL's. The B.C.'s say "what is the point of having a 16 hour aeroplane flown by crews who can work only 14 hours?" Bunks laddie. (And, why should anyone work a double shift with no compensation in time off, as is the case for crews.) The passengers are seduced on board with bunks. It is deemed necessary for them, but not the people responsible for their safety. The most dangerous part of the flight is being perfomed by crews at their lowest ebb. Seems daft to me.
Even worse are the operators that buy an 7 hour a/c and then roster an out & back.
I see the need for equal rules. The pax want to know they are equally safe on all airlines. In Italy, long-haul charter, I used to work 5 hours longer on the outbound, and 8 hours longer on the return leg, than allowed under CAP371. That difference in FTL's, which have medical input, can not be right. (and it allows the unscrupulous to rent in an Italian a/c to fly a trip in another more restrictiver country. Not supposed to happen, but I've done it!)
Anyway, it still seems, after 12 years now, that the ECA, or who ever, the politicians, bean counters and CAA's, are no closer to a solution. Perhaps we should call in Jimmy Carter. Perhaps we should lock them up in a room, (or get them airborne until the fuel runs out,) and only let them out when they have a verdict. Something needs to be a catalyst and focus the mind. It's likely to get worse before better, and all this feet dragging does nobody any good.
I still don't understand why the Health & Safety at Work executive is not involved in any of this. They are sticking their noses into everyone else's work patterns, why not ours?
Your responses are noted, and I understand the problems. The basis of what I'm saying is that the whole matter of FTL's needs a total new re-think. Start with a clean sheet of paper. Tinkering with the present system, and making cosmetic and minor changes, will not achieve the desired solution for anyone.
There need to be basic rules, based on social attitude and common sense. Each operator has a unique set of circumstances. In the past the major schedule carriers, short-haul, didn't takeoff before 0730, and didn't land much after 22.00. Now, with LCA's trying to squeeze extra sectors into each day, they start earlier and finish later. This infringes the early start/late finish rules and the Days Off regulations. This causes rosters problems with efficiency and I'm sure does not help the crew, as the limits become targets and the 'Spirit' is no where to be seen. But, remember the earl/late issue is unique to UK.
Management will always exploit the rules to maximise productivity, and to write one set of rules to cover all the operations is impossible.
I would have thought that a simple set of rules that covers maximum length of day/night duty; maximim hours in a 7 day period & month, minimum rest between duties and minimum total rest in blocks of days; allowance for time changes; is not beyond the wit of man. It applies in most other jobs.
Within these boundaries a roster buffer of X% is built in to allow for delays. i.e. you roster to 80% of the max rather than extend the max with discretion.
After that, why can not the managment sit down with the crews and devise a mutually agreed set of human rules best suited to their own operation. Operations change with routes, a/c and expansion. The company FTL's need to be flexible. (I once flew for a short-haul charter airline who had a template in their roster. They then flew long-haul charter and tried to use the same template. Daft. The only way it worked was to consider days down route in the Days Off calculation.)The crews have a longterm interest in the profitability and survival of their airline. They are intelligent to understand the concept of productivity, and after all, do like flying. They will not have anything to gain by demanding more than the airline can afford. If they want more, they are often the best people to suggest ways to expand the pie so as to get a bigger slice. Sadly, this never happens. I have never heard of an honestly rewarded suggestion scheme in any LCA. Surely these young airlines have a wealth of untapped experience in the ranks. There are so many ideas out there about how to improve finances in so many areas, and have a better life style at the same time. Sadly there is great mistrust of pilots' suggestions on money savings. Thus there are no suggestion schemes, unlike so many other industries.
If honest discussions were held, with open minds, the productivity - lifestyle issue would take a couple of days to sort out. It ain't rocket science. It's the beligerence of management that turns it into a totally unnecessary battle. Such a waste of energy and creator of low morale.
However, there needs to be the afor mentioned common sense criteria. Unfortunately, as the working time of most other workers has reduced/improved, the engineers have designed a/c which fly longer. The bean counters want, and have already achieved in some instances, an expansion of duty times to match the a/c performance. Note the EU proposals for JAA FTL's. The B.C.'s say "what is the point of having a 16 hour aeroplane flown by crews who can work only 14 hours?" Bunks laddie. (And, why should anyone work a double shift with no compensation in time off, as is the case for crews.) The passengers are seduced on board with bunks. It is deemed necessary for them, but not the people responsible for their safety. The most dangerous part of the flight is being perfomed by crews at their lowest ebb. Seems daft to me.
Even worse are the operators that buy an 7 hour a/c and then roster an out & back.
I see the need for equal rules. The pax want to know they are equally safe on all airlines. In Italy, long-haul charter, I used to work 5 hours longer on the outbound, and 8 hours longer on the return leg, than allowed under CAP371. That difference in FTL's, which have medical input, can not be right. (and it allows the unscrupulous to rent in an Italian a/c to fly a trip in another more restrictiver country. Not supposed to happen, but I've done it!)
Anyway, it still seems, after 12 years now, that the ECA, or who ever, the politicians, bean counters and CAA's, are no closer to a solution. Perhaps we should call in Jimmy Carter. Perhaps we should lock them up in a room, (or get them airborne until the fuel runs out,) and only let them out when they have a verdict. Something needs to be a catalyst and focus the mind. It's likely to get worse before better, and all this feet dragging does nobody any good.
I still don't understand why the Health & Safety at Work executive is not involved in any of this. They are sticking their noses into everyone else's work patterns, why not ours?
aka Capt PPRuNe
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those of you wondering what it was like (and still is in some quarters) in the 'job' then I highly recommend you read 'Defining Moment. A pilots story' by Robin Rackham. The autobiography takes you through the trials and tribulations of achieving the dream that so many wannabes have and the eventual realities of what flying for the smaller independent operators is really like.
The book is published by:
Lartington Music & Media,
Lartington Hall
Lartington
Barnard Castle
Co. Durham
DL12 9BW
UK
ISBN 0-9542780-0-3
I believe that the book can be ordered from the above address for ÂŁ9.00 plus ÂŁ1.70 p&p.
I found the book was engaging and entertaining. Robin Rackhams style of writing makes comfortable reading, especially for those who may not have the same insight into the job as those of us who are already there. Apart from a few glaring typo's and formatting errors, which should really have been spotted before going to the printer, the quality is high.
I cringed at a few of the situations Robin described and felt a bit let down by his description of how he handled some of the situations he found himself in but a quick reminder that most of what was being described was from the an era before CRM was the holy grail it has become today. Having read some of his informative articles that were published in 'The Log', the Balpa magazine, after a medical problem it was no surprise that the style of writing in the book was just as fluid and interesting.
Definitely a book worth reading for anyone who has a love of flying and an interest in what it is like working for the small and large independent airlines.
The book is published by:
Lartington Music & Media,
Lartington Hall
Lartington
Barnard Castle
Co. Durham
DL12 9BW
UK
ISBN 0-9542780-0-3
I believe that the book can be ordered from the above address for ÂŁ9.00 plus ÂŁ1.70 p&p.
I found the book was engaging and entertaining. Robin Rackhams style of writing makes comfortable reading, especially for those who may not have the same insight into the job as those of us who are already there. Apart from a few glaring typo's and formatting errors, which should really have been spotted before going to the printer, the quality is high.
I cringed at a few of the situations Robin described and felt a bit let down by his description of how he handled some of the situations he found himself in but a quick reminder that most of what was being described was from the an era before CRM was the holy grail it has become today. Having read some of his informative articles that were published in 'The Log', the Balpa magazine, after a medical problem it was no surprise that the style of writing in the book was just as fluid and interesting.
Definitely a book worth reading for anyone who has a love of flying and an interest in what it is like working for the small and large independent airlines.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holland
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still enjoy (almost) every minute on the job.747-400 co pilot for 13 years, major arline.
Pro's :
-every day new collegues
-going to lots of nice places, seeing all continents/major cities
-lots of sunshine/bars/fun/excursions.
-good salery
-early retirement ( for the time beeing)
Con's:
-jetlag
-beeing away from home when your family needs you to be home
-tough/expensive to get into the seat/become an airline pilot.
(I was lucky to get into the pilot seat by military employment, so scip the expensive part)
Last edited by slam_dunk; 8th Jul 2004 at 21:42.
Alba Gu Brath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rat 5
I hea what you're saying, and to a large degree agree with your points. The problem comes when you try and balance the working patterns of homo sapiens. Striking a balance between earlies and lates is a near impossible task when you consider the differences between people. Some on this thread have said that they would prefer to do earlies, some prefer lates. Trying to write a legally enforcable document that catered for a host of individuals preferences would keep Bodgitt Leggit & Scarper, Barristers-At-Law, in business for many, many years.
I've worked for airlines that tried to introduce preferential rostering around earlies and lates and it was not easy. We found that, after a period of approx 3 months, most of the crews were unhappy about their patterns and reported they felt more likely to suffer from fatigue, although nobody actually reported they were fatigued.
The fundamental problem with crew scheduling at the moment boils down to airport capacities, IMHO. More and more flights are being scheduled at 0500-0700 local because of runway slot availability (or lack of). Because of this, the first duty in a series immediately triggers a limitation factor, either start time after days off or early starts. Once that limitation has been triggered it doesn't take long before the limits are reached and the roster flow suffers as a result.
I hea what you're saying, and to a large degree agree with your points. The problem comes when you try and balance the working patterns of homo sapiens. Striking a balance between earlies and lates is a near impossible task when you consider the differences between people. Some on this thread have said that they would prefer to do earlies, some prefer lates. Trying to write a legally enforcable document that catered for a host of individuals preferences would keep Bodgitt Leggit & Scarper, Barristers-At-Law, in business for many, many years.
I've worked for airlines that tried to introduce preferential rostering around earlies and lates and it was not easy. We found that, after a period of approx 3 months, most of the crews were unhappy about their patterns and reported they felt more likely to suffer from fatigue, although nobody actually reported they were fatigued.
The fundamental problem with crew scheduling at the moment boils down to airport capacities, IMHO. More and more flights are being scheduled at 0500-0700 local because of runway slot availability (or lack of). Because of this, the first duty in a series immediately triggers a limitation factor, either start time after days off or early starts. Once that limitation has been triggered it doesn't take long before the limits are reached and the roster flow suffers as a result.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was lucky enough to join BOAC in the 60s when it was still a nationalised corporation. Even then, the senior captains were telling me that the job was crap compared to what it used to be. I guess every generation will say that.
Having retired, I now train young pilots coming into the profession. They are all desperately keen and pay a lot of money for their training so I can only deduce that it must still be very desirable.
Having retired, I now train young pilots coming into the profession. They are all desperately keen and pay a lot of money for their training so I can only deduce that it must still be very desirable.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B.T.
Good to hear from you. I can understand your problems, but:
These problems only occur when trying to maximise crew duties in the short term. Just because crews are allowed to work 7 days continous, why should they? Just becasue crews can work 55 hours in a week, why should they? This talk of earlies and lates causing problems. There is not problem if 3 earlies are followed by 2 days off; god knows you need them. The same with lates. And this only applies to those carriers with those kind of schedules and based in UK.
I've worked for too many airlines that start a roster with 8 days off/28 and then fill in the blanks with duty. From a previous thread I restate that an efficient working day flying is 6 hours airborne. (short-haul). This equates to 150 days per year. Add 30 SBYs, or 3 per working duty month and your year is full. With this maximum level of productivity there is no problem constructing a social roster. If airlines work you to the max for 8 months then you do very little for the next 3, assuming 1 on leave. Daft. Why not keep a good steady untiring roster all year round, instead of running out of pilots during the last couple of months? Sounds a WIN WIN to me. It gets rid of the early/lates, long/short, time chance problems. It only needs a clean sheet of paper and a different attitude from the bean counters. The limits are there to get you out of the inevitable pooh! not to be used every day. By using them every day, that is what causes the problem and why the B.C's are trying to get them extended. The FTL's are being used in the wrong manner and are seen as a hinderance not a help.
The B'C's do not want crews to work only what they see as 50% of the year. Well, in Eurpoean charter the average flying day was 7.5 hours. That's 120 days airborne pa. In intercontinental the average flight is 10 hours, that's only 90 days airborne.
I don't hear the same kind of squealling from those operators. They live with it an charge accordingly. The topic is far too complicated to find a solution here in a few posts. What seems to be missing is the will to really try and find a solution. Cosmetically fiddling with CAP 371 to find a JAA scheme will not work. There are better schemes out ther. I worked long-haul under the Scandinavian FTL system. It was the best I've been under. No doubt there will be dissenters, but there is more to FTl's than 371.
Good to hear from you. I can understand your problems, but:
These problems only occur when trying to maximise crew duties in the short term. Just because crews are allowed to work 7 days continous, why should they? Just becasue crews can work 55 hours in a week, why should they? This talk of earlies and lates causing problems. There is not problem if 3 earlies are followed by 2 days off; god knows you need them. The same with lates. And this only applies to those carriers with those kind of schedules and based in UK.
I've worked for too many airlines that start a roster with 8 days off/28 and then fill in the blanks with duty. From a previous thread I restate that an efficient working day flying is 6 hours airborne. (short-haul). This equates to 150 days per year. Add 30 SBYs, or 3 per working duty month and your year is full. With this maximum level of productivity there is no problem constructing a social roster. If airlines work you to the max for 8 months then you do very little for the next 3, assuming 1 on leave. Daft. Why not keep a good steady untiring roster all year round, instead of running out of pilots during the last couple of months? Sounds a WIN WIN to me. It gets rid of the early/lates, long/short, time chance problems. It only needs a clean sheet of paper and a different attitude from the bean counters. The limits are there to get you out of the inevitable pooh! not to be used every day. By using them every day, that is what causes the problem and why the B.C's are trying to get them extended. The FTL's are being used in the wrong manner and are seen as a hinderance not a help.
The B'C's do not want crews to work only what they see as 50% of the year. Well, in Eurpoean charter the average flying day was 7.5 hours. That's 120 days airborne pa. In intercontinental the average flight is 10 hours, that's only 90 days airborne.
I don't hear the same kind of squealling from those operators. They live with it an charge accordingly. The topic is far too complicated to find a solution here in a few posts. What seems to be missing is the will to really try and find a solution. Cosmetically fiddling with CAP 371 to find a JAA scheme will not work. There are better schemes out ther. I worked long-haul under the Scandinavian FTL system. It was the best I've been under. No doubt there will be dissenters, but there is more to FTl's than 371.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Here, but soon will be there
Age: 54
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading through some of this thread with interest, I'm curious to know how many pilots who are disillusioned by their lot to would look for alternative employment. In the Majors it's fairly easy to move to a slightly different capacity - ie management, training etc. But in the LCC's these places are relatively few and far between.
Over the years I have spoken to many people who have given it all up and to quote some "halved my salary but doubled my quality of life"! Isn't that what it's all about? we earn our money to give us a quality of life, but if work really does become a grinding chore, than surely (for the sake of our sanity) we should do something about it.
Over the years I have spoken to many people who have given it all up and to quote some "halved my salary but doubled my quality of life"! Isn't that what it's all about? we earn our money to give us a quality of life, but if work really does become a grinding chore, than surely (for the sake of our sanity) we should do something about it.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SA
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless you are with one of the majors, e.g. UA, AA, BA, CX etc., the job of an airline pilot is one step above being a prostitute!
I am so sick and tired of working for scumbag airlines I am going back to college to finish my law degree. When I have it, I will place ads in all of the aviation publications to represent pilots who have also been abused by these scumbag operators/crooks.
There will be no mercy for these slime......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a threat, FACT
I am so sick and tired of working for scumbag airlines I am going back to college to finish my law degree. When I have it, I will place ads in all of the aviation publications to represent pilots who have also been abused by these scumbag operators/crooks.
There will be no mercy for these slime......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a threat, FACT
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heavens, by the sound of it how lucky am I. I have been fortunate with the house price boom to have some pennies behind me, which I was considering using to pay for my licences.
I am so pleased I haven't, although I have spent some on a few bits and pieces to enjoy my life with.
Which is the major point. Life is to enjoy and be happy, not worry about having a wad of debt over your head, and then be handcuffed by an employer paying not so much, when they know you cannot afford to do anything else but work to their poor conditions (this is all based on what I have read on the pprune).
I am so pleased I haven't, although I have spent some on a few bits and pieces to enjoy my life with.
Which is the major point. Life is to enjoy and be happy, not worry about having a wad of debt over your head, and then be handcuffed by an employer paying not so much, when they know you cannot afford to do anything else but work to their poor conditions (this is all based on what I have read on the pprune).
My belief is that if you go for quality of life first then standard of living will follow - it doesn't work the other way round.
Having done the airline pilot job in a number of differing roles I can say that I am glad I have done it but there are some things I do not miss about the job such as irregular working hours, long duty periods and incompetent management. I do, however, miss the money!
However there is one thing worse than a bad job and that it no job at all - count your blessings!
Having done the airline pilot job in a number of differing roles I can say that I am glad I have done it but there are some things I do not miss about the job such as irregular working hours, long duty periods and incompetent management. I do, however, miss the money!
However there is one thing worse than a bad job and that it no job at all - count your blessings!