View Poll Results: How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Only if you're on long haul
135
11.23%
Not very. We're just 'drivers' locked in our cockpits
436
36.27%
It is still glamorous... or at least the idea of it is
494
41.10%
Have you seen my roster? Zzzz...
165
13.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1202. This poll is closed
How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
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Amongst the many type ratings I have is the 737 3/4/5/6/7/8/900 and although I financed my own licence I've never sold my butt and paid for a rating.
I simply enjoy my job despite all the crap and like the people I work with. It seems to be an alien concept to our obnoxious colonial.
I will take no further part in this debate..............
I simply enjoy my job despite all the crap and like the people I work with. It seems to be an alien concept to our obnoxious colonial.
I will take no further part in this debate..............
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Night flying, not many weekends off, annual medical, 2 sim checks per year, annual CRM, annual SEP exams, annual line check, reducing T&Cs in real terms, worry of losing medical and whether your airline will stay in business.
Love the job still and pay is still ok but not sure whether I'd go through all that again if I had to.
Love the job still and pay is still ok but not sure whether I'd go through all that again if I had to.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Amongst the many type ratings I have is the 737 3/4/5/6/7/8/900
You DO like to "strut it", don't you Redline. (Do you wear your uniform to the supermarket on your days off? Betcha ya do
)I also enjoy the job (most of the time), however the continued attempts to constantly further erode conditions that were previously basic to our employ (eg. the supply of a meal whilst on duty, being supplied with safe, sanitary accomodation when away at the employer's behest, safe scheduling with due regard for fatigue, etc) are only being made easier to achieve, when people such as yourself, Redline indicate - as you have with your initial posting - that you are willing to PROSTITUTE...in fact even prostitutes charge for their services.....PROSTITUTE yourself to satisfy your ego.
Signed,
Your Obnoxious Colonial
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I will admit to being amazed at the moans that are prevalent in the aviation industry. All industries are full of overworked people for little pay, but can I offer a little realism of the outside world to those that feel pretty hard done by? My own business, but at the end of the day, I don't really have much choice but to keep going. I am in too deep - scarily similar to those that are in too deep to turn back with their fATPL's.
At least you are doing something you want to do - fly aircraft.
A typical week:
Sunday - first phone call usually at 10.00 with some problem or another, then on throughout the day. Office at 18.00 to sort out the morning work for the morrow, back home about 19.30 unless I need to cover an airport job (50% of the time) inwhich case up to midnight.
Monday - 06.30 start, various duties, problem solving, taking the inevitable sales calls, dash home at 16.30 for some grub, back in office for 18.00 til 01.00
Tuesday - 06.30 start, same old stuff, home by 19.00 usually
Wednesday - 06.30 to 19.00 then cover night shift 00.00 to 04.30
Thursday - 06.30 til 19.00 quite often later til about 21.00
Friday - 06.30 til 16.30, dash home, grub back in office for 18.00 to 04.00 shift (no break)
Saturday - first call usually by 09.30, grab some time at home unless I have to go in to cover (again 50% of the time) then in at 17.00 til 05.00
and then we start all over again.
What do I earn?
Up until 2 years ago I was lucky to gross £15k. The last couple of years has been a lot kinder to me (the result of ten years bl***y hard graft) and this year I should gross £30k. But with the hours involved each week the money is still not exactly good.
I sort of fell into the business (long story) having been made redundant in the early 90's. Oh how I wish that I had stuck it out and found another sales job.
How many of you commercial pilots out there are really that close to abject tiredness constantly? So stressed that you are often close to tears? So p*****d off with what you do that you are REALLY tempted to just chuck it all in and give in? Do anything but subject yourself to another day of this?
No paid holidays, no sick pay, on call 24/7, family life (what family life?), and totally responsible for not just your own income, but that of 30 others?
Why do I do it? So that I can fly. Only privately at the moment but at least it enables me to achieve part of my dream. Whether I ever achieve a commercial licence who knows? But I'll probably die trying!!!
And no I wouldn't give my services away - not after the last few years. I have learnt that life is not worth just giving away.
At least you are doing something you want to do - fly aircraft.
A typical week:
Sunday - first phone call usually at 10.00 with some problem or another, then on throughout the day. Office at 18.00 to sort out the morning work for the morrow, back home about 19.30 unless I need to cover an airport job (50% of the time) inwhich case up to midnight.
Monday - 06.30 start, various duties, problem solving, taking the inevitable sales calls, dash home at 16.30 for some grub, back in office for 18.00 til 01.00
Tuesday - 06.30 start, same old stuff, home by 19.00 usually
Wednesday - 06.30 to 19.00 then cover night shift 00.00 to 04.30
Thursday - 06.30 til 19.00 quite often later til about 21.00
Friday - 06.30 til 16.30, dash home, grub back in office for 18.00 to 04.00 shift (no break)
Saturday - first call usually by 09.30, grab some time at home unless I have to go in to cover (again 50% of the time) then in at 17.00 til 05.00
and then we start all over again.
What do I earn?
Up until 2 years ago I was lucky to gross £15k. The last couple of years has been a lot kinder to me (the result of ten years bl***y hard graft) and this year I should gross £30k. But with the hours involved each week the money is still not exactly good.
I sort of fell into the business (long story) having been made redundant in the early 90's. Oh how I wish that I had stuck it out and found another sales job.
How many of you commercial pilots out there are really that close to abject tiredness constantly? So stressed that you are often close to tears? So p*****d off with what you do that you are REALLY tempted to just chuck it all in and give in? Do anything but subject yourself to another day of this?
No paid holidays, no sick pay, on call 24/7, family life (what family life?), and totally responsible for not just your own income, but that of 30 others?
Why do I do it? So that I can fly. Only privately at the moment but at least it enables me to achieve part of my dream. Whether I ever achieve a commercial licence who knows? But I'll probably die trying!!!
And no I wouldn't give my services away - not after the last few years. I have learnt that life is not worth just giving away.
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I think many of these posts have valid points. There has been a steady erosion of this profession, but I have seen the same thing happen to other professions (the medical field in the US for example). I can remember thinking when I was working on my ratings "can you imagine somebody paying you to do this?" Now that I have arrived, I realize that it is easy to lose perspective. I still really enjoy it. But there is nothing wrong in fighting to make this job a job worth having. Unfortunately, it is the very allure and romantic notion of the job that encourages people to work for so little to move up the ladder. But for me at some point I will say that it is time to move on to something that provides a better income and better life for my family.
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There is a well documented and well studied matter called Taylorism, named after the person who first studied it. It is sometimes called Fordism after Henry Ford who first applied it on any large scale. It is the process of de-skilling jobs by the application of industrial processes or technology. It started in manufacturing and is now well entrenched in many industries. It is certainly deeply engrained now in aviation. It is also engrained in almost every other field of transport. A good example is on the railways where in the 1930's the job of Express train driver, and fireman, were highly sought after and were the ambition of vast numbers of people. They were highly paid and the jobs were highly skilled. Driving a train from London to Edinburgh noe is certainly a highly responsible job but it carries only a fragment of the skill that applied 70 years ago.
The role of the airline pilot is already well down the same path. For proof just ask any Concorde pilot who has converted to the 777. The job still has exactly the same responsibilities but many of the skills have been automated. EFIS, GPWS and FADEC are just three examples of that.
The job content of the role of pilot has cahnged dramatically in my time in aviation and it had followed exactly the predictable path of Taylorism. New technolgies are already out there that will speed it all up just as they have in numerous other industries. Fifty years ago no onewould have accepted driverless trains, but they now exist on large scale. It is now imposible to do anything about the deskilling.
The issue of satisfaction levels that result from that deskilling is a different issue and I detect a strong current od opinion in this topic that that is the real issue. Pilots who come into the industry now have very different motivations from those who joined 30 years ago. They do not see the status issue in the same way at all. They were after all educated in a society in which Taylorism is the norm. There are so many applicants for pilot jobs that you have to conclude that the people concerned are happy with what is being offered.
The third issue is that of pay. Taylorism also means that there is less pay cost. That is why the deskilling takes place.
It is obvious that the job of the pilot is very different from what it used to be. But you cannot reverse that process.
Finally it is worth remembering who pays the pilot. It is not the airline. It is the customer. They are voting with their wallets now very much in favour of a new order.
The role of the airline pilot is already well down the same path. For proof just ask any Concorde pilot who has converted to the 777. The job still has exactly the same responsibilities but many of the skills have been automated. EFIS, GPWS and FADEC are just three examples of that.
The job content of the role of pilot has cahnged dramatically in my time in aviation and it had followed exactly the predictable path of Taylorism. New technolgies are already out there that will speed it all up just as they have in numerous other industries. Fifty years ago no onewould have accepted driverless trains, but they now exist on large scale. It is now imposible to do anything about the deskilling.
The issue of satisfaction levels that result from that deskilling is a different issue and I detect a strong current od opinion in this topic that that is the real issue. Pilots who come into the industry now have very different motivations from those who joined 30 years ago. They do not see the status issue in the same way at all. They were after all educated in a society in which Taylorism is the norm. There are so many applicants for pilot jobs that you have to conclude that the people concerned are happy with what is being offered.
The third issue is that of pay. Taylorism also means that there is less pay cost. That is why the deskilling takes place.
It is obvious that the job of the pilot is very different from what it used to be. But you cannot reverse that process.
Finally it is worth remembering who pays the pilot. It is not the airline. It is the customer. They are voting with their wallets now very much in favour of a new order.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
cloud69, whilst very commendable for persisting with a routine such as you have detailed, you are - after all - building up the worth of your OWN business. Something that you are going to be able to sell at a future date, and realise (hopefully) a significant profit for YOURSELF.
(By the way, I wasn't able to see when you find the time to fit in those private flying lessons
)
Obviously you feel the return is in it for you, down the track, otherwise you wouldn't be volunteering your efforts - and needless to say, you don't plan on working that sort of lifestyle ad infinitum...only until either (a) the business is up and running, and you can then take a far more relaxed approach, or (b) you flog the business off!!
Although many of our tasks have become automated, colegate, that doesn't mean the workload has lessened.
Certainly the Flight Engineers are not necessary on modern aircraft, but that meant shifting THEIR areas of responsibility to the pilots, thereby INCREASING pilot workloads.
Your example of a Concorde pilot transitioning to a 777 doesn't carry too much weight (and highlights the fact that you are not a pilot, when you cite GPWS, and to a lesser degree, EFIS, as "examples" of skills being automated, as neither of those replaced any pilot "skills), as a 777 pilot transitioning to Concorde would experience LESS automation in areas, and thus an easier systems understanding.
Automation means one still needs knowledge of the BASIC workings of the systems, PLUS a knowledge of how the automatics work, and what they do when they malfunction.
In the case of malfunctioning automatics, most pilots will revert to BASICS (ie. disengage/disconnect auto-systems), to maintain control of the aircraft!
Thus a knowledge of BOTH systems is required.
Unlike a car, bus, or train, aircraft are NOT able to be pulled up, and parked, while we try to figure what went/is going WRONG....the aircraft continues hurtling through the air at 3/5/6/8 miles per minute!!
So the job of pilot hasn't been "de-skilled" - quite the contrary, in fact.
Pilots today are far MORE multi-skilled than their counterparts of 20 and 50 years ago were.
TOTALLY AGREE there.
Pilots' salaries represent about 1-2% of the price of a passenger's ticket for the LCC's, and 2-3% of a normal carrier's pax ticket!
(By the way, I wasn't able to see when you find the time to fit in those private flying lessons
)Obviously you feel the return is in it for you, down the track, otherwise you wouldn't be volunteering your efforts - and needless to say, you don't plan on working that sort of lifestyle ad infinitum...only until either (a) the business is up and running, and you can then take a far more relaxed approach, or (b) you flog the business off!!
Although many of our tasks have become automated, colegate, that doesn't mean the workload has lessened.
Certainly the Flight Engineers are not necessary on modern aircraft, but that meant shifting THEIR areas of responsibility to the pilots, thereby INCREASING pilot workloads.
Your example of a Concorde pilot transitioning to a 777 doesn't carry too much weight (and highlights the fact that you are not a pilot, when you cite GPWS, and to a lesser degree, EFIS, as "examples" of skills being automated, as neither of those replaced any pilot "skills), as a 777 pilot transitioning to Concorde would experience LESS automation in areas, and thus an easier systems understanding.
Automation means one still needs knowledge of the BASIC workings of the systems, PLUS a knowledge of how the automatics work, and what they do when they malfunction.
In the case of malfunctioning automatics, most pilots will revert to BASICS (ie. disengage/disconnect auto-systems), to maintain control of the aircraft!
Thus a knowledge of BOTH systems is required.
Unlike a car, bus, or train, aircraft are NOT able to be pulled up, and parked, while we try to figure what went/is going WRONG....the aircraft continues hurtling through the air at 3/5/6/8 miles per minute!!
So the job of pilot hasn't been "de-skilled" - quite the contrary, in fact.
Pilots today are far MORE multi-skilled than their counterparts of 20 and 50 years ago were.
It is obvious that the job of the pilot is very different from what it used to be. But you cannot reverse that process.
Finally it is worth remembering who pays the pilot. It is not the airline. It is the customer. They are voting with their wallets now very much in favour of a new order.
Pilots' salaries represent about 1-2% of the price of a passenger's ticket for the LCC's, and 2-3% of a normal carrier's pax ticket!
In fact my salary is very similar to my equivalent in, say, BA or BMI (a little less certainly, and with fewer benefits), but actually represents a larger percentage of the over all yeild of the flight.
By the way, both my Australian and JAR licenses list my 737 rating as "737 300-900". (Endorsement is a uniquely Australian term and, as I take it redline works for easyJet, he would already be flying the NG)
Last edited by Wizofoz; 20th Jun 2004 at 19:09.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Desirable Pilot's job
I have to say, that it has been an utter pleasure reading what you Plank Drivers have to say. Redlines comments and others to boot are a welcome refreshment from fellow rotorheads.
I felt i had to chip in here with a few words, just to lighten up the thread a little. Being HEMS pilot with 3500 hours, i can honestly say that i never fly high enough get malignant melanoma, and if the sun manages to squeeze itself past my flying hemet and Nomex flight suite, then the tan is much welcomed.
Apart from the normal hassel of medicals, LPC's and line checks, type ratings and the liike, flying a helicopter has to be one of the most fun things i have ever done as a profession. skimming over tree tops and getting all the attention, when landing on Regent Street, is definately a motivation factor. Also the best part of the job has to be the "saving lives" factor too.
But i have to say, you guys should not look so badly upon your own profession, as the grass is always greener, as they say.
Interesting thoughts you guys have.
Regards
MD 900 Explorer
(Thats 900 not 90)
I felt i had to chip in here with a few words, just to lighten up the thread a little. Being HEMS pilot with 3500 hours, i can honestly say that i never fly high enough get malignant melanoma, and if the sun manages to squeeze itself past my flying hemet and Nomex flight suite, then the tan is much welcomed.
Apart from the normal hassel of medicals, LPC's and line checks, type ratings and the liike, flying a helicopter has to be one of the most fun things i have ever done as a profession. skimming over tree tops and getting all the attention, when landing on Regent Street, is definately a motivation factor. Also the best part of the job has to be the "saving lives" factor too.
But i have to say, you guys should not look so badly upon your own profession, as the grass is always greener, as they say.
Interesting thoughts you guys have.
Regards
MD 900 Explorer
(Thats 900 not 90)
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"Where is that cuppa tea i asked for 10 minutes ago.....does that galley girl realise i can't start the crossword without my Tea?And she hasn't even brought in the first class menu yet.I'm in the bunk in an hour from now....what's she doing out there for gods sake......working?"
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cloud69 I tried running a business while maintaining a full-time job piloting longhaul aircraft. As you've found, the business sucks you in. I didn't get out in time, and lost my family.
Now I stick to flying, and give the spare time I have (which is more than most people) to my young children, who fortunately live not far from me.
I realised, as a result of the traumas of that period, that there are things in life much more important than what job you do and how much time you spend doing it. I continue to fly because it pays me fairly well, and I still enjoy going away, but most importantly because it gives me spare time that I can use with my kids. Changing careers would take away that advantage - and consign me to the same commercial rat race that my business did.
Now I stick to flying, and give the spare time I have (which is more than most people) to my young children, who fortunately live not far from me.
I realised, as a result of the traumas of that period, that there are things in life much more important than what job you do and how much time you spend doing it. I continue to fly because it pays me fairly well, and I still enjoy going away, but most importantly because it gives me spare time that I can use with my kids. Changing careers would take away that advantage - and consign me to the same commercial rat race that my business did.
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Responsibility should equal reward.
F/O turbo operation 19K : Bin Man 19K ???????????????
When does the average Easy Jet/ Ryanair socialise?
He operates 6 Days 3 earlies then three lates often arriving Glasgow 3 times in one day with crosswinds at max limits dodging embeded CB's on a thunderous day. Shattered, in the cruise he wonders how he would cope if the worst occured at the worst possible moment. Working all the time and devoting his spare time to his family, he has not managed to give as much time to emergency procedures as he should.
Freight dog takes off into the night in his turbo prop, embedded CB,s along the route moderate icing slows the aircraft more and more, your over the mountains and your left engine is at max. Thats not good what if the right one fails!? Theres an awful static that you cant shut off an your getting bumped around so much that you cant read the instruments. You, too, are nackered and you ask yourself what would happen if the worst occured. Your company have just informed you that they have been granted permission to make you to fly 5 nights instead of 3-4:Great! You think of your family tucked up in bed and really wish you were there with them. You hope to get into the jets so you can get above the cloud. But hang on, it dont look that great in the jets either.
Flying isnt all sitting reading mags at 40K ft every few days you have crap weather that puts you to the test. A train driver does not have this. Landing an aircraft with electrics out and 35 mins of remaining batteries in foggy conditions with a howling crosswind should be something we should be prepared for every flight. If your nackered theres a good chance you will arse up and = dead.
I am less concerned about pay as time off. Airlines should max their daily sectors to 4 and do a whole week of earlies or a whole week of lates.
If you give crews good working conditions they will come to work refreshed and ready for anything, wanting more! as it used to be. Crews need time to study their books and this should either be rotad into their work or they should be given time of specifically for this purpose.
I ask the powers that be to consider this before its too late!
F/O turbo operation 19K : Bin Man 19K ???????????????
When does the average Easy Jet/ Ryanair socialise?
He operates 6 Days 3 earlies then three lates often arriving Glasgow 3 times in one day with crosswinds at max limits dodging embeded CB's on a thunderous day. Shattered, in the cruise he wonders how he would cope if the worst occured at the worst possible moment. Working all the time and devoting his spare time to his family, he has not managed to give as much time to emergency procedures as he should.
Freight dog takes off into the night in his turbo prop, embedded CB,s along the route moderate icing slows the aircraft more and more, your over the mountains and your left engine is at max. Thats not good what if the right one fails!? Theres an awful static that you cant shut off an your getting bumped around so much that you cant read the instruments. You, too, are nackered and you ask yourself what would happen if the worst occured. Your company have just informed you that they have been granted permission to make you to fly 5 nights instead of 3-4:Great! You think of your family tucked up in bed and really wish you were there with them. You hope to get into the jets so you can get above the cloud. But hang on, it dont look that great in the jets either.
Flying isnt all sitting reading mags at 40K ft every few days you have crap weather that puts you to the test. A train driver does not have this. Landing an aircraft with electrics out and 35 mins of remaining batteries in foggy conditions with a howling crosswind should be something we should be prepared for every flight. If your nackered theres a good chance you will arse up and = dead.
I am less concerned about pay as time off. Airlines should max their daily sectors to 4 and do a whole week of earlies or a whole week of lates.
If you give crews good working conditions they will come to work refreshed and ready for anything, wanting more! as it used to be. Crews need time to study their books and this should either be rotad into their work or they should be given time of specifically for this purpose.
I ask the powers that be to consider this before its too late!
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I fly long haul,4 engs,naturally,I love it,most of the time,but remember,to all those who want to do it,big or small planes:-
You are as good as your next landing.
Ive not slept properly,in last 4 days,from last ULH trip,and have had sim,since,plus a short turn around flt.
Fatigue,long term is a problem,but if youre up for its effects,on professional and private life,its still good.
Wise words from Kaptin M,and this weeks Flt Int,quotes Mr O'Leary of Ryannair,as "pilots being the most cossetted work group in society".
With attitudes like that,and new pilots selling themselves,for very little,very few quality employers left,it certainly is not the job it was 20 years ago.Thats a fact.
QB
You are as good as your next landing.
Ive not slept properly,in last 4 days,from last ULH trip,and have had sim,since,plus a short turn around flt.
Fatigue,long term is a problem,but if youre up for its effects,on professional and private life,its still good.
Wise words from Kaptin M,and this weeks Flt Int,quotes Mr O'Leary of Ryannair,as "pilots being the most cossetted work group in society".
With attitudes like that,and new pilots selling themselves,for very little,very few quality employers left,it certainly is not the job it was 20 years ago.Thats a fact.
QB
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I'm shorthaul with Big Airline plc BUT I'm 75% part time and it's fantastic!!!! I work 11 days amonth MAXIMUM. No nights out of bed and I actually look foward to going to work as a change to my normal homelife. My golf handicap is in single figures etc BUT work less = get paid less. I've a small house, old car but I'm extremely happy without the latest BMW or villa abroad or private education for the kids that some of collegues consider to be the bare essentials in life!
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FLY BY WIRE
iNTERESTING.......Some people out there may put their childrens education before lowering their handicap at 'The Golf Club' and when you say you work 75% part time ..max 11 days......sorry,lost on the maths.Still,sounds like a good deal and obviously suits your lifestyle and your happy,which seems a rarity these days.
p.s When did the kids grow up and fly the nest?
iNTERESTING.......Some people out there may put their childrens education before lowering their handicap at 'The Golf Club' and when you say you work 75% part time ..max 11 days......sorry,lost on the maths.Still,sounds like a good deal and obviously suits your lifestyle and your happy,which seems a rarity these days.
p.s When did the kids grow up and fly the nest?
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V-5. There are a lot of flying jobs that are very much tougher than anything you describe and they are very much enjoyed, partly because they are hard work and involve very special skills. Try flying out to an oil rig in a helicopter in the middle of a November gale to do a medevac. No comfy cockpit and you have to wear survival gear, as on every oil rig flight. Try crop spraying or fighting forest fires from a CL-215 where you lose around 20% of the gross weight of the aeroplane in around five seconds. It is all hand flying close to the ground in turbulent air with no external navigation facilities. I guess that no one has ever complained about that sort of work.