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SIA Jobs MkII

Old 31st Jul 2001, 23:29
  #21 (permalink)  
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TWITCHY AND TOSH26, I sent you both private messages. Thanks.

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Old 1st Aug 2001, 06:52
  #22 (permalink)  
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locgreen I for one have never said there will be a mass exodus from SIA and on that one I am in total agreement with you!!!
When you add 6.04 on to my low basic salary having had no benefit of any 6% service increments which were stolen from us, it is not particularly good when taking into account the huge depreciation of the SIN $.
This will also be the last year of such bonuses too. I would rather have a proper salary in the first place and not have to rely on bonuses to raise my salary. The doom and gloom is not just about salary but the whole Ethos within SIA which makes SIA an inherently dangerous airline.


In todays Straits Times Dr Cheong, Yes him with the miserable face and the weirdo hairdo said in the context of SIA/Air NZ that the staff of ANSETT were totally demoralised. Does this man have a caring nature afterall?? If so then why does he not look closer at home at SIA where ALL the staff are totally demoralised???

In his address to Staff in May at the business meeting to announce the profit of $1.5 billion for the year to 31st March 2001 he said the bonus would be 4.54 months plus an exgratia payment of 1.5 making a total of 6.04 despite the formula which SIA changed to meet their own agenda throwing up a total of 6.26 which he wishes now to ignore totally. This affects all employees in SIA not just greedy arrogant underworked pilots!! He continued being miserable by saying we did not deserve this bonus because of the dark clouds on the horizon.The fact that this bonus is for the previous years results and not next year seems to evade him.
This matter is now with the Ministry of Manpower who being Civil Servants are sitting on their A..ses and not making a decision for fear of upsetting their employer and majority shareholder of SIA namely the Singapore Government.


Locgreen I feel totally reassured to hear from you that we will get 6.26 months eventually. When will this be????
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Old 1st Aug 2001, 07:10
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I forgot to mention that the reason that SIA want to establish the principle that for bonus calculations profits from the listing of SATS and SIAEC are not included in bonus payments is because they know that when SIA CARGO is listed this will dwarf the amount raised by the previous listings.They are such a devious bunch. We will then have to rely on ex-gratia payments ie from the goodness of their hearts!!!
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Old 1st Aug 2001, 22:06
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Ah, the business meeting. In fact I remember receiving my "invitation" with the words "reason for none attendance" highlighted at the bottom of the invite.Guys were actually worse off for not replying, rather than saying some load of old bull about family commitments etc.

Gloom and doom is the order of the day in SIA especially when it comes to the future.Ditto 2000 1999 1998 1997 1996 1995 1994 1993 1992 1990 1989 1988 1987 1986 1985 1984..... 1970...1946.I remember on the 50th anniversary of SIA, we all received a tacky key ring, the dog ate mine and shat it out in the garden somewhere.About says it all I guess.
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Old 2nd Aug 2001, 07:17
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Gentlemen, yet again it is the "summer of our discontent." SOME of our bonus has been paid, back pay is in the bank, and the company now hopes we'll shutup! As we all knew, the big talk of exodus after these payments was fluff and most will now sit back in their upgraded HDB's watching their new big screen TV's and then drive to the local hawker in a bigger Mercedes, and think that SIA aren't so bad. Amazing how short sighted people can be! Everyone is relying on the wonderful LG Bey to arise from the ashes of previous management and form a new user friendly, come-up-for-a-coffee-4th-floor! The last time I felt anticipation like that was when I saw Yangon was testing CPDLC datalink operations in the NOTAMS, and look how far we've come since then!!!!! LG, no matter how sympathetic he is, is operating within an environment where he wants to please everyone. Impossible as far as pilots, safety, loss-of-face, and greedy shareholders are concerned. I'll let you all guess who he will HAVE to succumb to eventually.
On another note. What do we all think about FO's as cruise captains? Hope they're not planning to put failed command trainees in the left seat? That will really help you to sleep well!
Regards.
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Old 12th Aug 2001, 00:38
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This damn airline was doomed and is doomed forever.
No matter how much atvertisements they put out they are still shortfalling their requirements again.
The brink of the whole situation is they have hurt too many souls and so the flow on effect of pilots keeping in touch of employers downfalls carry on.
They may come and go as anywhere else I guess,SIA tops the list of High Turnover,maybe they should get an award for that,apart from the commercial awards they have uplifted so far.
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Old 26th Aug 2001, 01:31
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I believe that the ALPA-S EGM of 20 Aug saw agreement to accept the SIA "offer" of 1.65 months for the next bonus payment instead of the 1.72 months as per the current SIPS agreement.

Has acceptance also been made of the "ex-gratia" basis SIA attached to this payment and was discussion made of the implications for next year's bonus payments?

Looks like we are being screwed yet again and a vitally important part of the SIA remuneration mechanism is under serious threat.

Anyone know what's happening? I think we should be told.
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Old 26th Aug 2001, 07:48
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I fail to see how "screwed" you are with 6.5 X 16834= 109421 as a bonus. I thought we were here for the dough but I obviously miss the point
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Old 26th Aug 2001, 17:13
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John Barnes...I couldn't agree with you more. Btw, the exact figure is 6.19 months bonus.

Tosh26...the acceptance is "Without Prejudice" i.e. we live to fight another day on the IPO issue. But don't hold your breath...i expect we'll lose that anyway when we negotiate the new SIPS agreement.
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Old 28th Aug 2001, 06:48
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John Barnes

It's fairly obvious that you live your life on a day to day basis with no thought for what may be being manoeuvred for the future. Yes your bonus for this year is very nice but those of us with a little more imagination and a less trusting frame of mind when considering the SIA management, are of the view that acceptance of the SIA reduced Profit Sharing figure on anything other than a "without predjudice" basis is tantamount to allowing the management to drive a coach and horse through either the existing SIPS agreement or the present agreement principle, during the upcoming renegotiation of same.

If you would like me to draw a picture for you, I'll ask one of my children to oblige - they seem to have grasped the situation instantly.

locgreen

I was unable to attend the EGM of 20.08.01. Thank you for your confirmation that the kind offer by SIA management of a bonus figure less than that calculable using the current SIPS agreement between ALPA-S and SIA has been accepted by ALPA-S "without predjudice". Whilst I consider acceptance of this standard SIA bullying tactic entirely characteristic of the Association membership, at least this does leave us room for future negotiation manoeuvre.

You may like to consider that, if/when SIA does prevail in its efforts to negotiate the annual bonus calculation downwards - an element in total remuneration of the greatest importance given the comparably very poor pay and conditions "enjoyed" by the average SIA pilot - it will be merely a pyhrric victory on their part as potential pilot recruits worldwide will quickly note this further degradation of total package and the already desperate recruiting situation will merely be exacerbated
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Old 28th Aug 2001, 08:15
  #31 (permalink)  
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Tosh 26 You are wasting your time trying to engage the likes of John Barnes in any meaningful discussion as you will see from his past posts that all he can do is gloat and boast about his huge bonus. He is not interested in the double standards within SIA or the total lack of transparency in such things as Upgrades out of seniority as he has probably profitted at someone elses expence.

Loc Green The principle that the formula for this years bonus which SIA themselves changed meant the bonus should have been 6.26 as against the 6.19 being paid is the whole crux of the matter and as for accepting 6.19 without prejudice even you acknowledge that quote [when we negotiate the new SIPS I expect we will lose that anyway] When have we in SIA ever negotiated anything??? Every thing we get is on a take it or leave it basis which along with the totalitarian way Flight Operations is run explains why the recent Safety Attitude survey showed a large majority of Pilots abhor the way this company is run and I am quite sure that the other survey initiated by Hewitt Associates will do likewise.
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Old 29th Aug 2001, 07:52
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767driver

To tell you the truth, I think you are the one poor pilot who is still looking for a job.

There are a few hundred expats are working for Korean Air and Asiana Airlines.

Do you think they are working for them because they were starving ?

Do you think they have no place to go except those Airlines ?

Are you trying to say that those expats are looser ?

Man!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are the one who is a loser .

Because you are the one who failed from a Airline, like you said crummy Airline, I don't know why .

If your skill is not good, please be quiet and go back to the training school and learn from CFI.

---------------------------------------------
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Old 29th Aug 2001, 09:17
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Fellows,

On behalf of a good level debate this forum and serious professionals deserve, I will ignore personal attacks from poor sick minded individuals.

For those of you seeking a job please bear in mind the following:

1) South Korea civil aviation safety record being the worse in the world is not a matter of bad luck. Please, take a few minutes and click on "Tech/Safety". You will find an absolutely accurate report. KAL has undergoing a slow improvement, but Asiana...

2) The morale among expats is the worst possible. This explain why 90% of them came from small, bankrupted eastern Europe or Latin America airlines. They have no alternatives.

3) There is no fair, consistent and reasonable evaluation criteria. Checkrides are regarded as torture sessions. Shouting and even beating (!) are regular pratice.CRM is just a meaningless 3 letter. To be fail or pass is rather a random event, no technical. I know about 3 highly qualified captains, with more than 10,000 PIC, impeccable records that went to Asiana thinking they were joining a serious commitment. They did everything on the highest possible standards. I reviewed their training records. All good flights, irrelevant comments made by Korean instructors. These captains were just fired after 4 months there, after moving to Seoul with families etc. For nothing! Simply the check pilot did not like them, for personal or political reasons. Just imagine the situation. There are a lot more cases. No professional respect at all.


3) Forget about a stable roster: everything can change at the very last minute. The best flights? Only Korean captains. Days off in a row? Ok with KAL, impossible with Asiana.

4) Nobody speaks a decent English; an openly or disguised hostile attitude against expats is the rule. Most of the times nobody looks at your face or just keep absolutely silent for 5 hours legs. Forget about get along your F/O or cabin crew for dinner. No matter how nice and social you are.

5) Schooling: in case you have kids, be ready to spend at least US$1,000/month/per capita for a decent school. There's no allowances for this. And if you are not asiatic, your children be looked as ETs by theirs Korean colleagues.

Personally? I am pretty well back to the airline were I've been building a good 18 years career. Line instructor, invited to be checkpilot, good roster, nice people, gorgeous and friendly cabin crew. Money? Not so good. But there are no perfection.
I am thanking God I made the right decision in coming back.
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Old 29th Aug 2001, 11:35
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John Barnes

It’s been a long time since I’ve seen an example of such short-sighted, petty triumphalist complacency, as displayed in your post of 26 August.

I note, without surprise, that you require correction by locgreen as to the actual number of months bonus to be paid in respect of SIA’s profit performance during the last fiscal year but do you really not understand what has recently happened and what is in prospect for the future, to rock your insular little world?

Please allow me to elucidate.

The original bonus figure calculated as per the SIPS (Service Increment & Profit Sharing) agreement currently in force between ALPA-S and SIA was 6.26 months times the individual’s basic salary and was based on the highly creditable published group profits after tax, which were fortuitously augmented in fiscal 2000/2001 by the two IPO (Initial Public Offering) proceeds of SATS and SIA Engineering, amounting to S$440M – hence a record group profit plus a great bonus for all the SIA employees – and just about the only good news for this body in a long long time!

Needless to say, it would have been much to simple and completely in line with mature corporate practice for the SIA management to simply pay out what had been agreed virtually eons ago and which agreement had been enshrined in a watertight legally binding format. Instead, SIA CEO Dr Cheong, presumably with the concurrence of his hard-line politburo, chose, in the most capricious and unprofessional manner to abrogate the agreement and to unilaterally impose a lower bonus figure, plucked at random from thin air and foisted on the SIA “unions” with the usual bully-boy bluster.

At the first joint meeting between the “unions” representing all SIA staff and Dr Cheong, he offered, on the most off-hand, “take it or leave it” basis, 1.5 months basic salary bonus for the upcoming bonus stage payment, instead of the agreed 1.72 months. Predictably the other “union” poodles instantly capitulated and accepted the diktat. To its eternal credit, ALPA-S stood firm and offered to see Dr Cheong in court, to discuss the matter in further detail.

The second joint meeting saw a completely different attitude presented by the CEO, presumably after lengthy lawyers briefings that convinced him of a certain defeat in court, over the SIPS issue. This time he was highly conciliatory, saying that he did not wish another fight with the “unions” and asked them for their help in the present hard times (so hard that the directors have awarded themselves 150% raises on the basis of, wait for it, “market rate” – a principle which never seems to apply to pilots!) and offering another figure, again plucked from thin air, of 1.65 months basic salary. It became apparent that “face” would not allow him to backtrack and return to the original figure of 1.72 months and the “unions” graciously let him off the hook, calculating that good will had thus been generated, which could be used in the new SIPS agreement negotiations, now looming (fat chance!).

So, John Barnes, what conclusions can we draw from this spat?

Well for a start, ALPA-S clawed you back an extra .15 months bonus on the original “bully boy” figure, which on your claimed basic of S$16,834, is S$2525. Not as much, obviously as the .22 months, or S$3703 which you were legally entitled to but a very creditable effort by the ALPA-S boys.

Secondly, the CEO mentioned that he “did not wish to fight with the unions”. Well it really is evident that he started the fight and ALPA-S responded in a most mature, restrained and professional manner in the face of irrational action.

Thirdly, the CEO asked for the “unions” help during the present recession. Perhaps someone could clear up precisely how the breaking of a legally binding agreement, to save .07 month’s basic salary per employee is going to assist a financial behemoth, such as SIA, overcome the effects of the present cyclic downturn before the next upturn – especially as the money in question has already been allocated from last year’s spectacular profits.

Fourthly, the implication for November’s SIPS negotiations is that “without prejudice” will be challenged and that a case will be made that ALPA-S really accepted the 1.65 months as an “ex gratia” payment, so setting a precedent for future IPO proceeds (SIA Cargo promises to be a particularly juicy one), to be separated from group profits after tax, for the purpose of future bonus calculations.

Fifthly, the membership of ALPA-S really must have the balls to stand up to the SIA management and use the full weight of Singapore Law, if they ever hope to make any progress towards bettering their terms and conditions, thus vastly improving morale and flight safety, to the vast benefit of both the Company and the Nation. ALPA-S, regrettably, has lost a golden opportunity to obtain an easy and assured court win and to demonstrate that it is a staunch upholder of the Law, the Singapore Constitution and the principles of Justice and Fair Play.

Lastly, it would seem that such inground complacency as yours must surely be in danger of spilling over into your professional attitudes and performance – could I suggest a look in the mirror and a long hard assessment of your core beliefs and principles?
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Old 30th Aug 2001, 12:57
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High Cirrus. I think you will find John Barnes is too busy counting his money!!

John Barnes I hereby award you the title of : HONOURARY UGLY SINGAPOREAN
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Old 30th Aug 2001, 13:13
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LOC GREEN Are you still frightening SIA Management rigid with your look of contempt over the bonus issue??? Or have you settled happily with 6.19 instead of 6.26 which we are all rightfully owed and which has been stolen from us?? We have all allowed Dr Cheong to get off the hook and save his miserable face and he will make sure that the new SIPS will not include any further IPO to be included in profit calculations. This will not be negotiated but rammed down our throats as usual.
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