American Pilots view of TWA Pilot merger.
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American Pilots view of TWA Pilot merger.
Do many American Airlines pilots feel that most TWA pilots should go to the bottom of their seniortiy list, whether the TWA pilots are given five or so years of "seat protection" or not? Maybe such protection would prevent any downward displacements later.
I chatted last Wednesday night with an American crew in a Nashville Doubletree Hotel, and one of the pilots felt that such a situation would be fair to the TWA pilots because "we saved their butts", or similar words. What he meant was that any job for the TWA pilots was fair, because TWA, having been drained of vital cash flow by Carl Icahn, was about to go out of business. AMR agreed to purchase TWA, but one condition was that TWA file Chapter 11 (bankruptcy). Maybe some AMR pilots feel that the previous 40% pay cuts taken by TWA pilots, in order to help save their company, does not count for anything. That same American captain did not mention that AMR gained many aircraft and valuable gates/slots at numerous airports. Maybe that counts for nothing, in the eyes of some line pilots.
Interesting rationale is often used to justify shafting your fellw pilots. Many "redbook" NWA pilots wanted to do this to Republic's pilots, and it actually happened when Piedmont Airlines bought Empire. Years after the NWA/Republic merger, the NWA company paper, "Passages", finallt admitted that NWA needed the Republic hub feed, in order to survive.
Do most American pilots feel the same way about TWA, or are they just nervous about the seniority of many TWA pilots? It is interesting how so many pilots believe in seniority by date-of-hire, but only if it benefits their own career progression, i.e. widebodies...never mind that after mergers take place everyone at Brand X Airlines receives a paycheck from the same company and wears the same uniforms, in exchange for contracted services worked out under a joint contract.
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
I chatted last Wednesday night with an American crew in a Nashville Doubletree Hotel, and one of the pilots felt that such a situation would be fair to the TWA pilots because "we saved their butts", or similar words. What he meant was that any job for the TWA pilots was fair, because TWA, having been drained of vital cash flow by Carl Icahn, was about to go out of business. AMR agreed to purchase TWA, but one condition was that TWA file Chapter 11 (bankruptcy). Maybe some AMR pilots feel that the previous 40% pay cuts taken by TWA pilots, in order to help save their company, does not count for anything. That same American captain did not mention that AMR gained many aircraft and valuable gates/slots at numerous airports. Maybe that counts for nothing, in the eyes of some line pilots.
Interesting rationale is often used to justify shafting your fellw pilots. Many "redbook" NWA pilots wanted to do this to Republic's pilots, and it actually happened when Piedmont Airlines bought Empire. Years after the NWA/Republic merger, the NWA company paper, "Passages", finallt admitted that NWA needed the Republic hub feed, in order to survive.
Do most American pilots feel the same way about TWA, or are they just nervous about the seniority of many TWA pilots? It is interesting how so many pilots believe in seniority by date-of-hire, but only if it benefits their own career progression, i.e. widebodies...never mind that after mergers take place everyone at Brand X Airlines receives a paycheck from the same company and wears the same uniforms, in exchange for contracted services worked out under a joint contract.
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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I like most American pilots feel that TWA is asking for way too much. Being only hours from hitting the street is not my definition of a premier airline.
Yes at one time they WERE a good airline and I know the guys have paid their dues, but that doesn't mean an American guy should give up his/her seniority to give them a job. Look what TWA is gaining!!
Nearly a 75% increase in pay, retirement, job security and better work rules.........and they want seniority to (I don't think so). Staple their butts to the bottom of the list....enough is enough. If they don't like it, then hit the streets and find another job. BTW, American is not taking a lot of their aircraft. If the shoe was on the other foot, they would treat us like they did Ozark.
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Blue & White ]
Yes at one time they WERE a good airline and I know the guys have paid their dues, but that doesn't mean an American guy should give up his/her seniority to give them a job. Look what TWA is gaining!!
Nearly a 75% increase in pay, retirement, job security and better work rules.........and they want seniority to (I don't think so). Staple their butts to the bottom of the list....enough is enough. If they don't like it, then hit the streets and find another job. BTW, American is not taking a lot of their aircraft. If the shoe was on the other foot, they would treat us like they did Ozark.
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Blue & White ]
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I can understand the feelings of the AA guys, however, remember a few truisms:
What goes around, comes around. and
Be nice to the people you pass on your way up, you'll meet them again on your way down.
So keep the inflamatory rethoric to a minimum .
What goes around, comes around. and
Be nice to the people you pass on your way up, you'll meet them again on your way down.
So keep the inflamatory rethoric to a minimum .
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From an AA pilot's view, here's a little perspective...
To quote the original TWA merger committee Chairman when offered the possibility of a career length fence around TWA's fleet (i.e. TWA pilots would "fly" their career as a TWA pilot) the guy said "No way. We don't want to be stuck in a St Louis pilot ghetto!".
So, basically, they no longer want a TWA pilot's career, they want an AA pilot's career.
Their "rightful place" merger is based on neighbourhood scenarios. AA's neighbourhood is Saks 5th Avenue (or Harrods). TWA's neighbourhood was Walmart (or Woolworths).
I don't blame them for asking for the moon. If you don't ask you WON'T get.
A little realism would be nice, though.
TWA's pilots are in no way second rate. Their airline certainly was though. They'll hit the jackpot wherever they end up and make no mistake!
dd
To quote the original TWA merger committee Chairman when offered the possibility of a career length fence around TWA's fleet (i.e. TWA pilots would "fly" their career as a TWA pilot) the guy said "No way. We don't want to be stuck in a St Louis pilot ghetto!".
So, basically, they no longer want a TWA pilot's career, they want an AA pilot's career.
Their "rightful place" merger is based on neighbourhood scenarios. AA's neighbourhood is Saks 5th Avenue (or Harrods). TWA's neighbourhood was Walmart (or Woolworths).
I don't blame them for asking for the moon. If you don't ask you WON'T get.
A little realism would be nice, though.
TWA's pilots are in no way second rate. Their airline certainly was though. They'll hit the jackpot wherever they end up and make no mistake!
dd
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.....just about what you would expect from an AA pilot. He of course wants the senior TWA Captains' position.
And this from the guys that nearly bankrupted their own (APA) union with the court ruled illegal action.
And this from the guys that nearly bankrupted their own (APA) union with the court ruled illegal action.
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Actually AA could have waited until TWA ground to a halt. Then pick the carrier's plum assets at bargain prices without absorbing TWA's debts. The costly headache of integrating unionized employe groups would have been avoided. Shrewd business decision. But the new AA management was kinder. 
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The real and dreadful side of human nature is on display here. All talk of unity, justice, brotherhood etc etc..... all worth nothing when the mighty dollar is up for grabs. This is the same mentality that saw first class passengers on the Titanic stand gratefully by as steerage passengers were chained below decks to ensure the 'right' people got to the life boats.
A deeply unpleasant spectacle - made all the worse by the fact that the TWA guys would have done exactly the same in the position as AMR pilots. As an earlier contributor said - what goes around comes around. Bewarned!
A deeply unpleasant spectacle - made all the worse by the fact that the TWA guys would have done exactly the same in the position as AMR pilots. As an earlier contributor said - what goes around comes around. Bewarned!
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If our airline were to be taken over tomorrow (or saved to be more precise) I would not have a problem going to the bottom of the seniority list of the saviour company. Indeed I beleive most pilots would be greatful to keep their job and livelihood intact.
A quick reality check may be in order here.
A quick reality check may be in order here.
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Shakespeare,
You hit the nail on the head. The airline business is a dog eat dog world and you have to protect your position. I did work for Atlas Air for two years and some of us thought FedEx would buy us out. In turn, we fully expected to go to the bottom of the seniority list.......which was better than the position we were at Atlas.
For the TWA guys, just sit back and look at what you're gaining. Remember you were ACQUIRED not merged......be thankful you have a job. What are the A/A guys gaining in this deal.....(zippo). Remember, you could be operated separate like Eagle and negotiate your own contract........food for thought.
We know most of the TWA guys are happy to be at American and we welcome you. However, the radical TWA MEC and ALPA can simply go look for dues at another airline.
You hit the nail on the head. The airline business is a dog eat dog world and you have to protect your position. I did work for Atlas Air for two years and some of us thought FedEx would buy us out. In turn, we fully expected to go to the bottom of the seniority list.......which was better than the position we were at Atlas.
For the TWA guys, just sit back and look at what you're gaining. Remember you were ACQUIRED not merged......be thankful you have a job. What are the A/A guys gaining in this deal.....(zippo). Remember, you could be operated separate like Eagle and negotiate your own contract........food for thought.
We know most of the TWA guys are happy to be at American and we welcome you. However, the radical TWA MEC and ALPA can simply go look for dues at another airline.
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How 'bout the 3 (that I know of) TWA pilots who were terminated by AA because they left previous AA Eagle (chicken****) employ under unhappy, but by no means illegal, or professionally unqualifying terms...will this get ironed out one way or another...
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The ideal solution is at hand....actually two solutions.
1. Keep TWA separate and lower paid and use as a negotiating chip in the upcomming AA union contract talks, or...
2. Immediately transfer ALL of the senior international TWA Captains and F/O's to AA's international routes. TWA was flying overseas long before any AA pilot could spell "international".
1. Keep TWA separate and lower paid and use as a negotiating chip in the upcomming AA union contract talks, or...
2. Immediately transfer ALL of the senior international TWA Captains and F/O's to AA's international routes. TWA was flying overseas long before any AA pilot could spell "international".
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411A,
Have you ever actually thought something through before you hit send?
You berate AA pilots, yet your "solution" would harm former TWA pilots much more.
APA's solution offers AA payrates with full TWA length of service (on average 35-48% more than they made IF TWA was still in business). You, however, suggest they keep the same B division salary. And work rules. And health benefits. And hubs. And the now worthless retirement paychecks and benefits to those who toiled sweat for TWA and retired when it was a world great. You see where I'm going?
They WILL now receive a retirement check that can actually be cashed. It's unlikely they would, if AA hadn't shown up with its lifeboat.
Now, on to your other brilliant point. The TWA airline WAS indeed a leviathon many years ago. Just as George Best WAS a great soccer player, Billy Jean King WAS a great tennis player and Reggie Jackson WAS a great ball player. It might be news to your cloth head but if these once greats showed up for a game now it probably wouldn't be playing at the highest level, as they did in their prime. Times change. Sad I know but that's reality (which I realise doesn't exist on your planet).
I can't stress enough, APA pilots DO NOT consider TWA's pilots as anything less than capable. The simple fact is for the last FIFTEEN years TWA has been dying a slow death . The one's that stayed made that choice. No one held a gun to their head. Many left of their own free will to join other viable airlines including AA. They obviously made a tough but correct choice.
Former glory will not sustain anything other than fond memories. It certainly won't pay the bills.
With APA's plan TWA folks will be quids in!
For you to suggest that TWA be kept separate so it may be leveraged against APA demonstrates just how little you know. Great plan, piss off ALL the pilots!
No wonder you've had to build a career in the sandbox. With you and McCain that's two Arizona villages missing their idiots.
NSF......There's never enough Porridge on US TV!
dd
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: dallas dude ]
Have you ever actually thought something through before you hit send?
You berate AA pilots, yet your "solution" would harm former TWA pilots much more.
APA's solution offers AA payrates with full TWA length of service (on average 35-48% more than they made IF TWA was still in business). You, however, suggest they keep the same B division salary. And work rules. And health benefits. And hubs. And the now worthless retirement paychecks and benefits to those who toiled sweat for TWA and retired when it was a world great. You see where I'm going?
They WILL now receive a retirement check that can actually be cashed. It's unlikely they would, if AA hadn't shown up with its lifeboat.
Now, on to your other brilliant point. The TWA airline WAS indeed a leviathon many years ago. Just as George Best WAS a great soccer player, Billy Jean King WAS a great tennis player and Reggie Jackson WAS a great ball player. It might be news to your cloth head but if these once greats showed up for a game now it probably wouldn't be playing at the highest level, as they did in their prime. Times change. Sad I know but that's reality (which I realise doesn't exist on your planet).
I can't stress enough, APA pilots DO NOT consider TWA's pilots as anything less than capable. The simple fact is for the last FIFTEEN years TWA has been dying a slow death . The one's that stayed made that choice. No one held a gun to their head. Many left of their own free will to join other viable airlines including AA. They obviously made a tough but correct choice.
Former glory will not sustain anything other than fond memories. It certainly won't pay the bills.
With APA's plan TWA folks will be quids in!
For you to suggest that TWA be kept separate so it may be leveraged against APA demonstrates just how little you know. Great plan, piss off ALL the pilots!
No wonder you've had to build a career in the sandbox. With you and McCain that's two Arizona villages missing their idiots.
NSF......There's never enough Porridge on US TV!
dd
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: dallas dude ]
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Hold your water, Dallas Dude, I was merely suggesting tongue-in-cheek in my usual sarcastic fashion. Keeping TWA on a B scale would be of benefit to AA management to leverage a better deal later on. Do not for one minute think that this very subject has not been discussed at AA board level.
A more practical solution would be say, a six AA to one TW mix in the seniority list.
Suspect however this will not appease the junior AA guys who have visions of a rapid command in their dreams at the expense of the TW "joiners".
Can we send McCain down your way for awhile?
I personally would like to see him go away from Arizona and never come back. He would make a good dogcatcher, .....somewhere else.
A more practical solution would be say, a six AA to one TW mix in the seniority list.
Suspect however this will not appease the junior AA guys who have visions of a rapid command in their dreams at the expense of the TW "joiners".
Can we send McCain down your way for awhile?
I personally would like to see him go away from Arizona and never come back. He would make a good dogcatcher, .....somewhere else.
Thread Starter
Interesting comments, and I am not with either TWA nor AMR. My intention with the original topic question was not to provoke anyone personally, just find out how people feel and try to see if their thinking could take place with sort of objective detachment-which seems impossible for many (maybe for me too?), as I had suspected. It also happened to many in our merger, and the pilot arbitration lasted a few years.
My main question is this: at which levels of corporate debt are the pilots to be held accountable for the degrees of bankruptcy or near bankruptcy? Regarding financial health, debt-to-equity etc, as an example, how unhealthy should MY airline be in order for me to be expected to go the bottom of a seniority list, in order to let a 6-year FO go ahead of a 15-25 year FO, when both want to bid captain on a narrowbody jet, which both were very close to holding with their respective companies, before a merger was announced?
Should corporate health be ranked with ten degrees, with the uppermost (as if it were all to the pilots credit or discredit) level allowing strict seniority with several years of seat protection?
Come on guys and gals, does the Golden Rule only apply to those whose companies were not either: mismanaged and/or drained of cash (via many assets sold...) by Mr Icahn or Lorenzo? Why are the pilots held responsible for what the greedy sharks do? Apparently, line pilots subconsciously become upper mgmt VPs in a merger, in order to justify their own expectations.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
My main question is this: at which levels of corporate debt are the pilots to be held accountable for the degrees of bankruptcy or near bankruptcy? Regarding financial health, debt-to-equity etc, as an example, how unhealthy should MY airline be in order for me to be expected to go the bottom of a seniority list, in order to let a 6-year FO go ahead of a 15-25 year FO, when both want to bid captain on a narrowbody jet, which both were very close to holding with their respective companies, before a merger was announced?
Should corporate health be ranked with ten degrees, with the uppermost (as if it were all to the pilots credit or discredit) level allowing strict seniority with several years of seat protection?
Come on guys and gals, does the Golden Rule only apply to those whose companies were not either: mismanaged and/or drained of cash (via many assets sold...) by Mr Icahn or Lorenzo? Why are the pilots held responsible for what the greedy sharks do? Apparently, line pilots subconsciously become upper mgmt VPs in a merger, in order to justify their own expectations.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Let's take another perspective. Take for instance that 6 yr FO at AA you were referring to. Say that same FO left TWA six years ago when he was one number junior to the 10-15yr FO at TWA. So the 6yr/FO came to American, went thru probation, sat in crash pads and years of "B" scale/low wages and has paid his dues at Amercian.
All the while his buddy stayed at TWA, held a line, no crash pad/reserves and had decent wages.
Now does anyone think that the FO that stayed at TWA deserves to come over at American and be senior to the 6yr/Fo that made all the sacrifices.
Ladies and Gentlemen, seniority is the years of service at a "SPECIFIC" company........not just any company.
All the while his buddy stayed at TWA, held a line, no crash pad/reserves and had decent wages.
Now does anyone think that the FO that stayed at TWA deserves to come over at American and be senior to the 6yr/Fo that made all the sacrifices.
Ladies and Gentlemen, seniority is the years of service at a "SPECIFIC" company........not just any company.
Thread Starter
Yep Blue & White: you made an interesting point, although there might be very few such cases. My intent was to point out that if all line pilots and Merger Committee members in any merger, not just the AA/TWA acquisition etc, could somehow be detached from their personal desires, however naiive this sounds, and if each merged list had many years of category seat protection, then might some adjusted date-of-hire (without being knocked down like that EP-3 near China) or ratios prevent hindering the normal progression? There are infinite combinations of ratios, freezes or whatever.
Incidentally, my original company never had widebodies, and many of us have never wanted to fly the "other guys'" widebodies anyway, therefore never bid for any of those seats.
Maybe because my progression on our smallest jet (and options of bidding the larger narrowbodies for a while) was hindered both by our very long arbitration and my employee number which began with the "wrong" number, but lived in the base which never shrank much, thank goodness, it never occured to me to have a personal attachment to what my resulting seniority could hold. I must be in a very small minority. It took so long anyway to move up the FO list on our most junior equipment. I'll describe our situation in better detail if someone wants to e-mail me.
It's often difficult to see major issues from another person's viewpoint.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Incidentally, my original company never had widebodies, and many of us have never wanted to fly the "other guys'" widebodies anyway, therefore never bid for any of those seats.
Maybe because my progression on our smallest jet (and options of bidding the larger narrowbodies for a while) was hindered both by our very long arbitration and my employee number which began with the "wrong" number, but lived in the base which never shrank much, thank goodness, it never occured to me to have a personal attachment to what my resulting seniority could hold. I must be in a very small minority. It took so long anyway to move up the FO list on our most junior equipment. I'll describe our situation in better detail if someone wants to e-mail me.
It's often difficult to see major issues from another person's viewpoint.
[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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There has never been a NATIONAL seniority list. By national I don't mean national airlines <G>...
Since there is no national seniority list, date of hire is irrelavant. What is taken into account is "Career expections". No matter how you slice the award even if it is an outright staple, the dollar value of their career has just been enhanced for every TWA pilot. The same cannot be said of every American pilot.
The hiring practices of the two airlines were very different, with American tending to hire much older pilots than TWA did. Indeed there are people at TWA with 10 more years seniority than me that are younger than me. Such is NOT the case at American.
I had expectations of finishing at a seniority number of just under 500 in NY flying the 777. That was my career expectation. Now that may not happen.
I passed repeatedly on a job at TWA because the job I had was better than TWA (more money and Better lifestyle)and waited till American called me.
If the merger was done via date of hire, Because I may not be able to hold the 777 till later in my career and because even if I do hold it I will have lost a large amount of seniority, my income for the calculations of my pension have been reduced. (A fund is highest 5 of last 10 years, and b fund is 11 percent of earnings). Therefore I have lost.
So ALPA's own merger policy which says nothing about date of hire but does say one group cannot gain at the expense of another would seam to back me up.
My favorite piece of history though is the GILL AWARD. For those not familiar with the Gill award, it dealt with PANAM and National Airlines. Basically even though Pan Am BOUGHT National lock stock and barrel (which incidentally killed Panam, and was forever known as Seawell's Folly, General Seawell ran PANAM at the time) when the arbitratator looked at the two airlines, PANAM was The incredible shrinking airline for the past decade. That was their career expection, and all the national pilots were pretty much placed infront of the PANAM pilots even though the PANAM pilots were fossils. This was because the epectations of growth were much higher for Healthy National than they had been for shrinking PANAM.
So what is really going on is that the TWA MEC is unfairly raising the expectations of their membership. But at the end of the day, money talks and Bull**** walks so eventually most of the rank and file will get their raises on Jan 1 when they switch to the GREEN BOOK (AA's contract) which APA got for them now instead of 05 like managment wanted and buy themselves a bigger boat or car and get over it.
Welcome aboard guys. Inspite of everything we are still growing at a nice clip. since the buy out almost 1000 pilots have been hired. atleast another 1000 are on the way. Even in a worst case staple (which even APA isn't advocating) every single TWA pilot is already a 767/A300 copilot making as much as a TWA captain, with no stress about how long it will last.
Nobody is looking to take away length of service. Everyone will get date of hire for pay purposes. That will equate quite a nice check.
Cheers
Wino
Since there is no national seniority list, date of hire is irrelavant. What is taken into account is "Career expections". No matter how you slice the award even if it is an outright staple, the dollar value of their career has just been enhanced for every TWA pilot. The same cannot be said of every American pilot.
The hiring practices of the two airlines were very different, with American tending to hire much older pilots than TWA did. Indeed there are people at TWA with 10 more years seniority than me that are younger than me. Such is NOT the case at American.
I had expectations of finishing at a seniority number of just under 500 in NY flying the 777. That was my career expectation. Now that may not happen.
I passed repeatedly on a job at TWA because the job I had was better than TWA (more money and Better lifestyle)and waited till American called me.
If the merger was done via date of hire, Because I may not be able to hold the 777 till later in my career and because even if I do hold it I will have lost a large amount of seniority, my income for the calculations of my pension have been reduced. (A fund is highest 5 of last 10 years, and b fund is 11 percent of earnings). Therefore I have lost.
So ALPA's own merger policy which says nothing about date of hire but does say one group cannot gain at the expense of another would seam to back me up.
My favorite piece of history though is the GILL AWARD. For those not familiar with the Gill award, it dealt with PANAM and National Airlines. Basically even though Pan Am BOUGHT National lock stock and barrel (which incidentally killed Panam, and was forever known as Seawell's Folly, General Seawell ran PANAM at the time) when the arbitratator looked at the two airlines, PANAM was The incredible shrinking airline for the past decade. That was their career expection, and all the national pilots were pretty much placed infront of the PANAM pilots even though the PANAM pilots were fossils. This was because the epectations of growth were much higher for Healthy National than they had been for shrinking PANAM.
So what is really going on is that the TWA MEC is unfairly raising the expectations of their membership. But at the end of the day, money talks and Bull**** walks so eventually most of the rank and file will get their raises on Jan 1 when they switch to the GREEN BOOK (AA's contract) which APA got for them now instead of 05 like managment wanted and buy themselves a bigger boat or car and get over it.
Welcome aboard guys. Inspite of everything we are still growing at a nice clip. since the buy out almost 1000 pilots have been hired. atleast another 1000 are on the way. Even in a worst case staple (which even APA isn't advocating) every single TWA pilot is already a 767/A300 copilot making as much as a TWA captain, with no stress about how long it will last.
Nobody is looking to take away length of service. Everyone will get date of hire for pay purposes. That will equate quite a nice check.
Cheers
Wino