El Al warns pilots of 747 engine failures
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El Al warns pilots of 747 engine failures
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During the investigation of the "Bijlmerramp" in 1992 where the El Al 747-200F 4X-AXG crashed into an Amsterdam apartment complex after literally losing engines 3 and 4, it became apparent that engine number 3 suffered a violent compressor stall in the initial climb just before it tore itself loose from the already defective mounting and taking engine number 4, some of the vulnerable leading-edge flaps and associated hydraulic plumbing with it, leading to a loss of control when the flaps were selected down as captain Fuchs desparately tried to get back to Schiphol, ultimately leading to a tremendous loss of life on the ground.
RIP
I am hesitant to bring up some of the urban legends that are going around at EHAM about El Al, so I won't. But I think something is fundamentally wrong with the way these planes are maintained, especially as the terrible events of 1992 were most certainly not the first nor the last time an Israeli 747-200 lost bits and pieces in the AMS FIR.
RIP
I am hesitant to bring up some of the urban legends that are going around at EHAM about El Al, so I won't. But I think something is fundamentally wrong with the way these planes are maintained, especially as the terrible events of 1992 were most certainly not the first nor the last time an Israeli 747-200 lost bits and pieces in the AMS FIR.
During the investigation of the "Bijlmerramp" in 1992 where the El Al 747-200F 4X-AXG crashed into an Amsterdam apartment complex after literally losing engines 3 and 4, it became apparent that engine number 3 suffered a violent compressor stall in the initial climb just before it tore itself loose
I guess you enjoy reading conspiracy theories and ignore investigation findings
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lomapaseo,
Can you enlighten me as to what those facts are? I would be interested in hearing them. I'm not sure of all the facts of this one, but A floor is correct about this not being the first time an EL AL jet has lost a bit of itself in and around Amsterdam.
A Floor..
yep, some of those urban legends are a bit disturbing to say the least, but I suppose many people can't be blamed due to the circumstances of the case. Even passing the Bijlmermeer while driving along the A9 gives me the creeps!
Can you enlighten me as to what those facts are? I would be interested in hearing them. I'm not sure of all the facts of this one, but A floor is correct about this not being the first time an EL AL jet has lost a bit of itself in and around Amsterdam.
A Floor..
yep, some of those urban legends are a bit disturbing to say the least, but I suppose many people can't be blamed due to the circumstances of the case. Even passing the Bijlmermeer while driving along the A9 gives me the creeps!
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lomapaseo
Okay, have it your way.
If you had bothered to even read the official report on LY1862, you would have known how full of inconsistencies it really is. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is that one particular news reporter from a reknowned Dutch newspaper "Trouw", Mr. Vincent Dekker, was indeed deeply unsatisfied with these inconsitencies, and during the 1990s made it his personal crusade to find out what *really* happened and did a little personal factfinding of his own. At one stage he interviewed people the officials never bothered to interview, like people who saw it all happen from the ground, some of them airline professionals themselves.
Here comes the interesting bit:
At about FL065 flying over the Gooimeer on the Pampus departure from EHAM's RWY 01L (nowadays 36C), loud, thundering noises were heard by people on the lake. One of these people was a retired KLM engineer who was at some point involved in engine testing (as you might know KLM engineering is a maintenance station for the GE CF6 and CFM56 engines). As thunder is a bit odd on a clear october evening, he looked up and saw the 747 overhead, turing right towards Hilversum, apparently with its two starboard engines and some other debris falling to the earth and plunging into the lake at some distance east from his boat. He immediately radioed a "PAN PAN" to the coast guard to tell them what just happened, but even though the plane was at 2 kilometres altitude when it happened, he was sure what he heard were several consecutive compressor stalls.
IIRC, this was never mentioned in the official report, as the retired KLM engineer in question was never interviewed by the officials. To make things even more odd, the coastguard tapes with his PAN PAN message were erased before anyone could get their hand on them, as were most of the tapes of the local police in the area with other people on them, supposedly calling in distress from what they just witnessed.
Concerning technicalities, the CVR was never found (officially) the FDR as far as I know didn't record engine vibration data, and (this bit IS in the official version) the no.3 vibration sensor was U/S.
I'm usually not someone who's prepared to believe everything he reads or hears, but the whole course of action by the official investigators has been very, very peculiar to say the least, even to me. Comparable not to AA 587, but rather to, let's say TWA 800.
And this is just engines. I'm afraid Mr. Dekker's main publication, titled "Going down", ISBN 90-254-0913-X, was only published in Dutch, but I invite you to look up some of the other mysteries surrounding flight LY1862 that are available right here on the internet.
But enough of me, let's hear some of your "personally determined facts" that lead you to denouncing my initial statement as a load of crap. This is not only rude to someone who has spent a great deal of time trying to find out all about this particular accident, but also complete and utter bollocks when you fail to provide us with some facts as to why I'm quite so full of
as you say I am.
If you had bothered to even read the official report on LY1862, you would have known how full of inconsistencies it really is. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is that one particular news reporter from a reknowned Dutch newspaper "Trouw", Mr. Vincent Dekker, was indeed deeply unsatisfied with these inconsitencies, and during the 1990s made it his personal crusade to find out what *really* happened and did a little personal factfinding of his own. At one stage he interviewed people the officials never bothered to interview, like people who saw it all happen from the ground, some of them airline professionals themselves.
Here comes the interesting bit:
At about FL065 flying over the Gooimeer on the Pampus departure from EHAM's RWY 01L (nowadays 36C), loud, thundering noises were heard by people on the lake. One of these people was a retired KLM engineer who was at some point involved in engine testing (as you might know KLM engineering is a maintenance station for the GE CF6 and CFM56 engines). As thunder is a bit odd on a clear october evening, he looked up and saw the 747 overhead, turing right towards Hilversum, apparently with its two starboard engines and some other debris falling to the earth and plunging into the lake at some distance east from his boat. He immediately radioed a "PAN PAN" to the coast guard to tell them what just happened, but even though the plane was at 2 kilometres altitude when it happened, he was sure what he heard were several consecutive compressor stalls.
IIRC, this was never mentioned in the official report, as the retired KLM engineer in question was never interviewed by the officials. To make things even more odd, the coastguard tapes with his PAN PAN message were erased before anyone could get their hand on them, as were most of the tapes of the local police in the area with other people on them, supposedly calling in distress from what they just witnessed.
Concerning technicalities, the CVR was never found (officially) the FDR as far as I know didn't record engine vibration data, and (this bit IS in the official version) the no.3 vibration sensor was U/S.
I'm usually not someone who's prepared to believe everything he reads or hears, but the whole course of action by the official investigators has been very, very peculiar to say the least, even to me. Comparable not to AA 587, but rather to, let's say TWA 800.
And this is just engines. I'm afraid Mr. Dekker's main publication, titled "Going down", ISBN 90-254-0913-X, was only published in Dutch, but I invite you to look up some of the other mysteries surrounding flight LY1862 that are available right here on the internet.
But enough of me, let's hear some of your "personally determined facts" that lead you to denouncing my initial statement as a load of crap. This is not only rude to someone who has spent a great deal of time trying to find out all about this particular accident, but also complete and utter bollocks when you fail to provide us with some facts as to why I'm quite so full of
as you say I am.
Last edited by A-FLOOR; 18th May 2004 at 12:58.
The Reverend
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eal401, I am not familiar about the exact hidden causes, if any, of the El Al disaterous crash in Amsterdam other than the published findings. We actually practiced simulated scenarios of that accident afterwards. One thing I can tell you for sure, is that lomapaseo is not "just mouthing off" and never has in the past. You should be a bit more careful in making snap judgements about people whose background you are not aware of.
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All the official reports regarding the investigation should be on the FAA website,so that should clear up any conspiracy theories or speculation.
As far as i know (qualified though because i read the report a long time back),it was a violent compressor stall,which caused stress to an incorrectly modified pylon,which ultimately lead to the accident.
As far as i know (qualified though because i read the report a long time back),it was a violent compressor stall,which caused stress to an incorrectly modified pylon,which ultimately lead to the accident.
I don't get it, some of you are quick to point out in the early stages of an investigation not to speculate and to shut up an wait for the final report (I'm not a supporter of this) yet once the investigators have determined the facts and released then to the public still others of you go about embelishing the facts to support your own pet theories without regard to the analysis and findings of the experts.
For what purpose?, do you intend to make up your own corrective actions and ignore the foundations of the corrective actions announced by the investigators, for that is what the real purpose of the investigation into air accidents is.
Now lets get back to compressor stalls. For those that have experienced them in the big irons, you are well aware of their noise, flashes of flame and the response of the aircraft which is a yaw.
For those lucky enough to look out a window and watch an engine stall you will also see a rolling motion of the pylon which is far less than that experienced in aircraft buffeting or turbulence, yet engines aren't falling off except under the worst of these non-engine induced turbulent conditions (EV B747).
In the case of the other B747 freighters that lost both right side engines, the first one was CI out of Taipei for which the CVR was found but not the DFDR. The conversation and noises heard on the CVR confirmed that no engine surge preceeded the event.
In the case of the EL AL B747 the DFDR was recovered but not the CVR. The DFDR records EGT, FF, N1 N2 and EPR which taken together can positively confirm an engine surge and I can postively state that no surge occured preceeding the separation (which is the loss of parameters from the engine).
However in any event where the airflow to an engine is seriously disturbed by inlet aerodynamic separation (pitch, yaw or stall wakes from forward aircraft surfaces) the engines may surge repeatedly under such conditions.
In almost all accidents where an aircraft upset occurs such surge noises accompanied by flashes of flame are either confirmed by data or at least reported by witnesses on the ground.
In the case of the loss of perfectly good, undamage and fully functioning engines from their mounts in flight, the engine will screw forward under thrust and due to lift effects on the inlet will immediately pitch up and because of the unrestrained pitching moment, will snap to the right under severe gyroscopic forces (GE & PW). The effect of such action is likely to have precipitated an inlet aerodynamic separation and result in surging which only ground witnesses would be aware since no data would be linked to any onboard aircraft detector.
Of course since there are no mounts to react these forces there is no load and no effect on the aircraft.
The investigators of these accidents were very careful and thorough in their examination of all data and previous history for these events as well as consideration of the casual witness statements. The published report is thorough and the critical factors agreed by all parties.
If there were to be new evidence confirmed, to suggest that a prior-to-separation engine surge might have contributed to this accident than such evidence should be presented to the investigating bodies (RLD & NTSB)
For what purpose?, do you intend to make up your own corrective actions and ignore the foundations of the corrective actions announced by the investigators, for that is what the real purpose of the investigation into air accidents is.
Now lets get back to compressor stalls. For those that have experienced them in the big irons, you are well aware of their noise, flashes of flame and the response of the aircraft which is a yaw.
For those lucky enough to look out a window and watch an engine stall you will also see a rolling motion of the pylon which is far less than that experienced in aircraft buffeting or turbulence, yet engines aren't falling off except under the worst of these non-engine induced turbulent conditions (EV B747).
In the case of the other B747 freighters that lost both right side engines, the first one was CI out of Taipei for which the CVR was found but not the DFDR. The conversation and noises heard on the CVR confirmed that no engine surge preceeded the event.
In the case of the EL AL B747 the DFDR was recovered but not the CVR. The DFDR records EGT, FF, N1 N2 and EPR which taken together can positively confirm an engine surge and I can postively state that no surge occured preceeding the separation (which is the loss of parameters from the engine).
However in any event where the airflow to an engine is seriously disturbed by inlet aerodynamic separation (pitch, yaw or stall wakes from forward aircraft surfaces) the engines may surge repeatedly under such conditions.
In almost all accidents where an aircraft upset occurs such surge noises accompanied by flashes of flame are either confirmed by data or at least reported by witnesses on the ground.
In the case of the loss of perfectly good, undamage and fully functioning engines from their mounts in flight, the engine will screw forward under thrust and due to lift effects on the inlet will immediately pitch up and because of the unrestrained pitching moment, will snap to the right under severe gyroscopic forces (GE & PW). The effect of such action is likely to have precipitated an inlet aerodynamic separation and result in surging which only ground witnesses would be aware since no data would be linked to any onboard aircraft detector.
Of course since there are no mounts to react these forces there is no load and no effect on the aircraft.
The investigators of these accidents were very careful and thorough in their examination of all data and previous history for these events as well as consideration of the casual witness statements. The published report is thorough and the critical factors agreed by all parties.
If there were to be new evidence confirmed, to suggest that a prior-to-separation engine surge might have contributed to this accident than such evidence should be presented to the investigating bodies (RLD & NTSB)
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thanks!
Thanks for your thorough explanation on how the course of events could be explained. Perhaps I was wrong after all. 
But don't be mistaken in thinking that I have concerns about the people carrying out the investigations themselves and coming up with these conclusions, but rather the people at the top, perhaps witholding information that may be of harm to them. Because that's exactly what has been going on, and the contempt of those directly involved eventually lead to a parliamentary inquiry.
Not so much concerning how and why the engines broke loose, but primarily on the hazardous cargo that was unaccounted for, in effect due to the "free state" status of the El Al Cargo division on Schiphol. A lot of residents, rescue workers, firemen, and other people are suffering from various illnesses which can neither be attributed to the cargo that was on the manifest, nor to the depleted uranium that was used to counterbalance the 747's control surfaces.
Even today, 12 years after the main event, this crash is still cause for a lot of grief and bitterness among the Dutch. And that includes me as well.
But don't be mistaken in thinking that I have concerns about the people carrying out the investigations themselves and coming up with these conclusions, but rather the people at the top, perhaps witholding information that may be of harm to them. Because that's exactly what has been going on, and the contempt of those directly involved eventually lead to a parliamentary inquiry.
Not so much concerning how and why the engines broke loose, but primarily on the hazardous cargo that was unaccounted for, in effect due to the "free state" status of the El Al Cargo division on Schiphol. A lot of residents, rescue workers, firemen, and other people are suffering from various illnesses which can neither be attributed to the cargo that was on the manifest, nor to the depleted uranium that was used to counterbalance the 747's control surfaces.
Even today, 12 years after the main event, this crash is still cause for a lot of grief and bitterness among the Dutch. And that includes me as well.
A lot of residents, rescue workers, firemen, and other people are suffering from various illnesses which can neither be attributed to the cargo that was on the manifest, nor to the depleted uranium that was used to counterbalance the 747's control surfaces.
Of course all the investigators have nothing but the usual run of complaints after working with depleted uranium and all the other stuff carried as cargo. cough cough wheeze
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I believe it's not so important to discuss the Depleted Uranium Elevators, as what was actaully on the main-deck, as concerns fissile material.
A decent source tells me, whatever it was on the main-deck was never manifested, hence the insistance on going into AMS LY cargo.
A decent source tells me, whatever it was on the main-deck was never manifested, hence the insistance on going into AMS LY cargo.
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CVR
Cockpit or should I say flightdeck recordings are available on many of the www's aviation accident websites. I found it dazzling to say that the CVR was not found be it "Officially" or "Un-officially".
On an other note, would someone please paste the haaretz article on a post. Access from where I am is blocked to sites of that particular nation.
AD
On an other note, would someone please paste the haaretz article on a post. Access from where I am is blocked to sites of that particular nation.
AD
Last edited by Atlanta-Driver; 19th May 2004 at 05:32.
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Atlanta-Driver
Those transcriptions are only the communications between the crew and ATC and also include thw infamous "Going down going down 1862, copied going down" with the stickshakers going off in the background 
. What was actually said on the flightdeck as recorded by the CVR, not only by the three crewmembers but also by the El Al security official that was on the jumpseat will probably never be known. At least not by the public.
The article:
I still hold my breath whenever I see a white-tail cargo 747 (usually LY) on approach into Schiphol from my window or see one depart.
. What was actually said on the flightdeck as recorded by the CVR, not only by the three crewmembers but also by the El Al security official that was on the jumpseat will probably never be known. At least not by the public.The article:
El Al warns pilots of 747 engine failures
By Zohar Blumenkrantz, Haaretz Correspondent
El Al has issued new operating instructions to pilots flying its Boeing 747-200 aircraft, pending completion of an investigation into a recent series of inflight engine problems on these planes.
The instructions include a warning to pay special attention to the flow of gas to the engines to avoid engine stall-out.
Initial findings of the investigation indicate that some of the engine problems were caused by faulty calibration and turbine failure. Internationally renowned experts from the engine manufacturer, Pratt & Whitney, will join the investigation, together with representatives from Boeing.
In one of the most serious of the recent incidents, two of the four engines on a 747-200 plane stalled during a flight over Europe.
The captain of the plane declared an emergency, brought the plane to a lower altitude and managed to restart one of the stalled engines.
El Al's five 747-200 planes are among the oldest components of El Al's fleet and are mainly used as cargo aircrafts, but can also be used as passenger planes.
El Al's revenues from its cargo business rose by 10.8 percent in 2003.
By Zohar Blumenkrantz, Haaretz Correspondent
El Al has issued new operating instructions to pilots flying its Boeing 747-200 aircraft, pending completion of an investigation into a recent series of inflight engine problems on these planes.
The instructions include a warning to pay special attention to the flow of gas to the engines to avoid engine stall-out.
Initial findings of the investigation indicate that some of the engine problems were caused by faulty calibration and turbine failure. Internationally renowned experts from the engine manufacturer, Pratt & Whitney, will join the investigation, together with representatives from Boeing.
In one of the most serious of the recent incidents, two of the four engines on a 747-200 plane stalled during a flight over Europe.
The captain of the plane declared an emergency, brought the plane to a lower altitude and managed to restart one of the stalled engines.
El Al's five 747-200 planes are among the oldest components of El Al's fleet and are mainly used as cargo aircrafts, but can also be used as passenger planes.
El Al's revenues from its cargo business rose by 10.8 percent in 2003.
