Pilots falling asleep BEFORE they report.
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Pilots falling asleep BEFORE they report.
Over the last few years, as house prices have shot up in the SE, I'm flying with co-pilots that are living further and further from LHR. It is not unusual these days to fly with a guy who has just driven in from Wales, Devon, Manchester or even Newcastle. We also have lots of commuters (one co-pilot even commutes from Australia and thats on SH, many many more on LH) from Spain, France Scotland etc.
BA seems to turn a blind eye to these practises and even helps promote commuting by supplying buses to and from the terminals to the Compass Centre. I have every sympathy with guys trying to find somewhere to live that offers the best quality of life BUT I feel that you are not fully rested if you have just done a 3hr car journey or a spent 6 hrs traveling from France before you report for duty. The last guy I flew with had just driven in from Sheffield, a 3 hour plus car journey. This is just not on especially with some of the long duty days we have. Is this the same in other airlines? Is there not any legislation that restricts the distance you can drive before you go to work? Or restricts the distance you can travel as a pax before you operate? It is not uncommon to see guys get off overnight flights from the states to then do a 10:30 report to operate back out again. Apart from being extremely tiring do the pax not have a right to expect a pilot to turn up to work fully rested. Maybe it's time for the CAA took a long hard look at the some of the ditances pilots are living from their regular places of work.
BA seems to turn a blind eye to these practises and even helps promote commuting by supplying buses to and from the terminals to the Compass Centre. I have every sympathy with guys trying to find somewhere to live that offers the best quality of life BUT I feel that you are not fully rested if you have just done a 3hr car journey or a spent 6 hrs traveling from France before you report for duty. The last guy I flew with had just driven in from Sheffield, a 3 hour plus car journey. This is just not on especially with some of the long duty days we have. Is this the same in other airlines? Is there not any legislation that restricts the distance you can drive before you go to work? Or restricts the distance you can travel as a pax before you operate? It is not uncommon to see guys get off overnight flights from the states to then do a 10:30 report to operate back out again. Apart from being extremely tiring do the pax not have a right to expect a pilot to turn up to work fully rested. Maybe it's time for the CAA took a long hard look at the some of the ditances pilots are living from their regular places of work.
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That's a good idea if you also agree to nobody ever going beyond 11/2 hrs, lets say, from the airport. Thus no more holidays, no more visiting friends outside of this 11/2 hr radius - otherwise you might turn up to work tired! What a dumb call for legislation, haven't we got enough restrictions already? Let me be responsible for turning up in a fit state. If you're so concerned offload the guy. Also, where do you draw the line? Who's to say that a commuter is more tired than a guy who couldn't sleep the night before, or (god forbid) went out and had a later night than usual with some friends - perhaps we should put a bed time restriction into the legislation aswell?
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Not sure that I get your point Nexus. Why do you mention an 11 1/2 hour limit?
I just feel that there are too many pilots reporting to work who aren't fully rested. A 3 hour car journey, for me, is not playing the game. I just wondered what the situation was in other airlines and if there is any current legislation that actually puts any restrictions on how long a pilot can travel to his/her regular place of work.
It's not the time of report that you have to worry about it's the 13 hours later, after a multi-sector day, when you might make a serious mistake due to being tired. Maybe I'm wrong and nobody cares about this subject anymore. Certainly when I joined our contract said you had to live an hours drive from your home base. Things must have changed but one thing that hasn't changed is that a tired pilot makes mistakes.
A few months ago I did have to refuse to go into discretion because my co-pilot was simply to tired. He had driven in from Wales that day.
I just feel that there are too many pilots reporting to work who aren't fully rested. A 3 hour car journey, for me, is not playing the game. I just wondered what the situation was in other airlines and if there is any current legislation that actually puts any restrictions on how long a pilot can travel to his/her regular place of work.
It's not the time of report that you have to worry about it's the 13 hours later, after a multi-sector day, when you might make a serious mistake due to being tired. Maybe I'm wrong and nobody cares about this subject anymore. Certainly when I joined our contract said you had to live an hours drive from your home base. Things must have changed but one thing that hasn't changed is that a tired pilot makes mistakes.
A few months ago I did have to refuse to go into discretion because my co-pilot was simply to tired. He had driven in from Wales that day.
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There is already legislation in the UK for this. Your company operations manual should have the statement
If the normal travelling time is in excess of 1 1/2 hours then the crew member concerned is in breach of the company ops manual in the same way as if a duty was rostered in excess of Max FDP. Of course using the word Should rather than must does cloud the waters somewhat.
If the journey time from home to normal departure airfield is usually in excess of 1 1/2 hours, crew members should make arrangements for temporary accommodation nearer to base.
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The Caa need to first look at the practice of Level 2 ops sending a heavy crew out in the back, in normal pax seats, surrounded by pax and then having to operate home. Usually late night / early departures. Knacked when you get in the seat yet within FTL's.
Much less tiring actualy working both ways with use of discretion, but can not be rostered.
Same goes for staff carparks being in the next county.
And this is from someone who lives close enough to the airport to see the gear retracting.
Much less tiring actualy working both ways with use of discretion, but can not be rostered.
Same goes for staff carparks being in the next county.
And this is from someone who lives close enough to the airport to see the gear retracting.
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Tiredness Police?
Justbelow
I don't think you've given enough thought to the premise of your post. Does it matter WHY a crewmember reports "fatigued" for a work assignment? Why do you single out commuting? Is it okay for a pilot to stay up all night with a sick child then show up for work? Can a young single guy stay out and party all hours (no alcohol of course) and show up with no sleep as long as he lives close to work? The requirement is to report for duty "fit to fly."
What someone does on his own time, off duty, is NO business of yours or the company for whom he works. If you have a problem with someone reporting for work unfit, take THAT issue up with the individual and if necessary, management. DO NOT start pushing for commuting limits for the 99% of us that commute and commute sensibly. With declining pay/benefits/conditions it isn't always practicable to sell up and move for every base change for whatever reason. Its all some guys can do to hang onto a quality of life. Some pilots recognize a job as temporary and moving would be insanity. Mandated maximum commuting times/distances/practices would adversely affect a LOT of people.
I don't know where you live, where you work or what your circumstances might be, but in this environment none of our careers/positions/situations are 100% safe for the next 40 years. You might be driving a few hours to your next base for your next company in a few years. Unless, of course, you'll sell up and move the family whilst you're in training.
Regards,
A one time commuter by necessity
I don't think you've given enough thought to the premise of your post. Does it matter WHY a crewmember reports "fatigued" for a work assignment? Why do you single out commuting? Is it okay for a pilot to stay up all night with a sick child then show up for work? Can a young single guy stay out and party all hours (no alcohol of course) and show up with no sleep as long as he lives close to work? The requirement is to report for duty "fit to fly."
What someone does on his own time, off duty, is NO business of yours or the company for whom he works. If you have a problem with someone reporting for work unfit, take THAT issue up with the individual and if necessary, management. DO NOT start pushing for commuting limits for the 99% of us that commute and commute sensibly. With declining pay/benefits/conditions it isn't always practicable to sell up and move for every base change for whatever reason. Its all some guys can do to hang onto a quality of life. Some pilots recognize a job as temporary and moving would be insanity. Mandated maximum commuting times/distances/practices would adversely affect a LOT of people.
I don't know where you live, where you work or what your circumstances might be, but in this environment none of our careers/positions/situations are 100% safe for the next 40 years. You might be driving a few hours to your next base for your next company in a few years. Unless, of course, you'll sell up and move the family whilst you're in training.
Regards,
A one time commuter by necessity
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LanFranc
Nobody needs to push for commuting limits for UK based airline crew because THEY ALREADY EXIST! Please read my first post which is an extract from the UK CAP371 The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrew.
Nobody needs to push for commuting limits for UK based airline crew because THEY ALREADY EXIST! Please read my first post which is an extract from the UK CAP371 The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrew.
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Just Below Cap...Some interesting points and from what I hear from Senior Management, one that is being blamed for our recent mishaps. Would be interesting to know how many of the relevant crew were commuters. Though BA management never let the facts stand in the way of a good story.
Your points beg the question , Do you sleep all day until waking up for your report to work? Are you fully rested otherwise?
I commute and manage to snooze for an hour on my 2 hour flight. Less tiring , I find ,than my old 1.5 / 2 hr drive up from the South Coast when I lived there. Unfortunately, those of us that were LGW based donīt get housing allowance if you move up to LHR.
This means most of us had to drive PAST our preferred base up to the big smoke. Iīm with the other posters here, One has to accept responsibility for some things in life, otherwise, whatīs the point of a pilots licence? I donīt think commuters are any worse than anybody else in reporting for duty unfit. Thatīs not to say some people donīt arrange their sleep patterns so that they will be able to sleep in the bunks and extend their duty day. How do you legislate for all that?
What I suspect is that there has been an element of envy among management and various UK based crew at the semi-rich lifestyles that some of our ex pat colleagues are lucky enough to have.
Your points beg the question , Do you sleep all day until waking up for your report to work? Are you fully rested otherwise?
I commute and manage to snooze for an hour on my 2 hour flight. Less tiring , I find ,than my old 1.5 / 2 hr drive up from the South Coast when I lived there. Unfortunately, those of us that were LGW based donīt get housing allowance if you move up to LHR.
This means most of us had to drive PAST our preferred base up to the big smoke. Iīm with the other posters here, One has to accept responsibility for some things in life, otherwise, whatīs the point of a pilots licence? I donīt think commuters are any worse than anybody else in reporting for duty unfit. Thatīs not to say some people donīt arrange their sleep patterns so that they will be able to sleep in the bunks and extend their duty day. How do you legislate for all that?
What I suspect is that there has been an element of envy among management and various UK based crew at the semi-rich lifestyles that some of our ex pat colleagues are lucky enough to have.
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After all the rules and regs are read. Is it not more relaxing being a pax from sunny Spain rather than fighting you way around the ******* M25. Not only is it more sensible but life here is still a lot better than the UK.
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Over the last few years, as the population has shot up in the SE, I'm flying with Captains that are breeding further and further from LHR. It is not unusual these days to fly with a guy who has young children in Wales, Devon, Manchester or even Newcastle. We also have lots of second marriages.
BA seems to turn a blind eye to these practises and even helps promote procreation by supplying part-time working. I have every sympathy with guys with young children BUT I feel that you are not fully rested if you have just done 3hrs sleep or a spent 6 hrs tending to a poorly child before you report for duty. The last guy I flew with had just driven in from the school run, a 3 hour plus car journey. This is just not on especially with some of the long duty days we have. Is this the same in other airlines? Is there not any legislation that restricts the number of kids you can have before you go to work? Or restricts the attention you pay them before you operate? It is not uncommon to see guys get off overnight teething duty then do a 10:30 report to operate back out again. Apart from being extremely tiring do the pax not have a right to expect a pilot to turn up to work fully rested. Maybe it's time for the CAA took a long hard look at the some of the nippers pilots are having away from their regular places of work.
PS I take it JustbelowCAP doesn't live far south of the M25 roadworks by T4 or his home might just have moved outside the 1.5 hour band and he'll have to sell up and move north!
PPS I'm sure all the Picadilly line commuters will be thrilled at JBCs implicit suggestion that the company busses from the Central area to Compass should be removed. Then they can all drive in and JBC can add yet another 30 minutes to his journey time in order to find a space in our overcrowded car park.
PPS If I ever fly with you on an early remind me to tell you just how knackered I am after getting up at 03:30 to drive 120 miles to work, aaah........ sorry what was I saying?........ yes tiredness.....zzzzzzzz
BA seems to turn a blind eye to these practises and even helps promote procreation by supplying part-time working. I have every sympathy with guys with young children BUT I feel that you are not fully rested if you have just done 3hrs sleep or a spent 6 hrs tending to a poorly child before you report for duty. The last guy I flew with had just driven in from the school run, a 3 hour plus car journey. This is just not on especially with some of the long duty days we have. Is this the same in other airlines? Is there not any legislation that restricts the number of kids you can have before you go to work? Or restricts the attention you pay them before you operate? It is not uncommon to see guys get off overnight teething duty then do a 10:30 report to operate back out again. Apart from being extremely tiring do the pax not have a right to expect a pilot to turn up to work fully rested. Maybe it's time for the CAA took a long hard look at the some of the nippers pilots are having away from their regular places of work.
PS I take it JustbelowCAP doesn't live far south of the M25 roadworks by T4 or his home might just have moved outside the 1.5 hour band and he'll have to sell up and move north!
PPS I'm sure all the Picadilly line commuters will be thrilled at JBCs implicit suggestion that the company busses from the Central area to Compass should be removed. Then they can all drive in and JBC can add yet another 30 minutes to his journey time in order to find a space in our overcrowded car park.
PPS If I ever fly with you on an early remind me to tell you just how knackered I am after getting up at 03:30 to drive 120 miles to work, aaah........ sorry what was I saying?........ yes tiredness.....zzzzzzzz
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Actually Hand Solo if you have been up all night looking after a kid then I feel that you aren't fully rested and that you shouldn't report for a long multi-sector day. It's called being a professional.
I'm in no way having a go at commuters, an hours flight as a pax is probably a lot more relaxing than driving round the M25. But positioning for 6 or 7 hrs and then operating is just not on. Neither is doing a three hour plus car drive. That is taking the mickey out of the system. The pax have a right to expect the pilots to be fully rested. I hadn't realised that there are proscribed limits. It's time the CAA and BA started to enforce them. This job aint a joke, the mistakes we make are for keeps. Tiredness is a killer. You wouldn't turn uip for work drunk why should you turn up not able to safely operate for the legal day plus discretion.
I'm in no way having a go at commuters, an hours flight as a pax is probably a lot more relaxing than driving round the M25. But positioning for 6 or 7 hrs and then operating is just not on. Neither is doing a three hour plus car drive. That is taking the mickey out of the system. The pax have a right to expect the pilots to be fully rested. I hadn't realised that there are proscribed limits. It's time the CAA and BA started to enforce them. This job aint a joke, the mistakes we make are for keeps. Tiredness is a killer. You wouldn't turn uip for work drunk why should you turn up not able to safely operate for the legal day plus discretion.
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JBC , I feel your ammunition would be better used at highlighting fatigueing rosters, for example, on the 777. Why not highlight the companies lack of CAP protection for 5/6 Atlantics a month or apply pressure to construct back to back trips (as they do for the CC) with a nice warm hotel bed across the road from Compass?
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Justbelowcap, if companies do not even take work & rest rules seriously and generally try to stretch crews out to the max, why do you believe that anyone in management would be even remotely interested in this? It's just not going to happen is it?
Seems to me that nexeuk suggestion is the only workable one, though frought with problems and not exactly making for a hassle free start to the working day. ....recently had an FO who went out salsa dancing in Berlin all night, and announced that fact to the whole crew when he arrived in the lobby 3 minutes before our 0400 pick up. FAs very upset by this, so I approached the Captain. Who also wasn't best pleased but decided to fly with him anyway...... So we flew and the FO looked like a wrung out dish rag slumped in his seat, very very annoyed with us for having questioned his being fit-for-flight. Lesson learned for me was that next time I will either refuse to fly and take with me the FAs, or just shut up and hope for the best..... Realpolitik isn't pretty.
Having said that, I do think Justbelowcap's concern is valid. I live a 5 hour car-train-plane trip from base, and I almost always travel out the day before starting duty. On the rare occasion when I commute and work on the same day, I definitely notice the accumulated effect of the commute plus a 3 leg day. Being tired and stressed even before starting my flight makes me feel that I'm less alert than what I should have been. The idea of not reacting appropriately in an emergency due to self induced tiredness is what keeps me commuting the day before.
The argument "Look at how tired we get from working and that's all right with the company, so we might as well show up for work equally tired since the comapny doesn't give a sh*t either" doesn't work for me personally. The company might be an irresponsible @ss, but I try my best not to be.
But perhaps I have an over active conscience?
The nux of the matter is, with long working hours/teething kids, you don't have a choice. With a commute, you do.
Seeing how I do not 'command' anything more dangerous than a coffee pot and a bunch of FAs, I'm probably a great big fool for taking x amount of days per year away from the family to show up for work well rested though.
Seems to me that nexeuk suggestion is the only workable one, though frought with problems and not exactly making for a hassle free start to the working day. ....recently had an FO who went out salsa dancing in Berlin all night, and announced that fact to the whole crew when he arrived in the lobby 3 minutes before our 0400 pick up. FAs very upset by this, so I approached the Captain. Who also wasn't best pleased but decided to fly with him anyway...... So we flew and the FO looked like a wrung out dish rag slumped in his seat, very very annoyed with us for having questioned his being fit-for-flight. Lesson learned for me was that next time I will either refuse to fly and take with me the FAs, or just shut up and hope for the best..... Realpolitik isn't pretty.
Having said that, I do think Justbelowcap's concern is valid. I live a 5 hour car-train-plane trip from base, and I almost always travel out the day before starting duty. On the rare occasion when I commute and work on the same day, I definitely notice the accumulated effect of the commute plus a 3 leg day. Being tired and stressed even before starting my flight makes me feel that I'm less alert than what I should have been. The idea of not reacting appropriately in an emergency due to self induced tiredness is what keeps me commuting the day before.
The argument "Look at how tired we get from working and that's all right with the company, so we might as well show up for work equally tired since the comapny doesn't give a sh*t either" doesn't work for me personally. The company might be an irresponsible @ss, but I try my best not to be.
But perhaps I have an over active conscience?
The nux of the matter is, with long working hours/teething kids, you don't have a choice. With a commute, you do.
Seeing how I do not 'command' anything more dangerous than a coffee pot and a bunch of FAs, I'm probably a great big fool for taking x amount of days per year away from the family to show up for work well rested though.
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Maxy101 good points about fatigueing roster construction. It's time that this became a serious safety issue. Would be interesting to see the legal position of somebody involved in an incident after a long day preceded by an over 90 min journey to report.
Email on the way to LCG to see what the official line is, suspect the insurers would take a dim view of long commutes pre-checkin. Maybe a CHIRP report would clarify the situation for everybody.
Email on the way to LCG to see what the official line is, suspect the insurers would take a dim view of long commutes pre-checkin. Maybe a CHIRP report would clarify the situation for everybody.
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Justbelowcap - 'tiredness is a killer'
On your argument then the companies will also have to provide accomadation for all crew post night operations, because having been up all night no one is really fit to operate even a car up the road - however, we know that won't happen.
But stop bleating on about tired crew, individual responsiblity not blanket legislation for the few who abuse. You're the captain, you are ultimately responsible for a safe flight, so accept that responsiblity and if you think a crewmember isn't fit - don't go! But don't highlight a problem for the majority of long distance commuters, drivers etc. who turn up perfectly ok.
On your argument then the companies will also have to provide accomadation for all crew post night operations, because having been up all night no one is really fit to operate even a car up the road - however, we know that won't happen.
But stop bleating on about tired crew, individual responsiblity not blanket legislation for the few who abuse. You're the captain, you are ultimately responsible for a safe flight, so accept that responsiblity and if you think a crewmember isn't fit - don't go! But don't highlight a problem for the majority of long distance commuters, drivers etc. who turn up perfectly ok.
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I always keep a pillow and a blanket in the car, and know the location of laybys between my place and LGW. And I also carry an inflatable neck-support in my flight back, to use when sleep opportunities present themselves.
I can't think of too many jobs where I would need to take such precautions, but our profession does require alertness, and naps help greatly in getting me through the days/nights.
I can't think of too many jobs where I would need to take such precautions, but our profession does require alertness, and naps help greatly in getting me through the days/nights.