Pilots falling asleep BEFORE they report.
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Nigelondraft makes a good point. The phrase "should consider" is about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Pilots can just easily say "I did consider getting accomadation near the airport but decided against it"!!!
This gets right to the heart of the debate. I hate to have really proscriptive rules, who is to say that a 95 min journey is much more tiring than a 85 min journey, however we are talking about guys who regularly travel much, much more than this. BA knows it is going on, indeed some our managers in SH are the worst offenders, but just keep turning a blind eye to what is an increasing problem. The CAA is the regulator but seems to be next to useless these days. Eventually there will be a major hull loss attributed to an error that was caused by fatigue. When the investigation reveals that both the pilots had been travelling for 3 hours before reporting for an 11 hr day then it will become compulsory to live an hour from your regular place of work. Or BA (and the CAA) could make enforce the spirit of legislation and protect the travelling public. The trouble is the guy in BA who would have to signal the changes lives in Newcastle. His home base is LHR.
This gets right to the heart of the debate. I hate to have really proscriptive rules, who is to say that a 95 min journey is much more tiring than a 85 min journey, however we are talking about guys who regularly travel much, much more than this. BA knows it is going on, indeed some our managers in SH are the worst offenders, but just keep turning a blind eye to what is an increasing problem. The CAA is the regulator but seems to be next to useless these days. Eventually there will be a major hull loss attributed to an error that was caused by fatigue. When the investigation reveals that both the pilots had been travelling for 3 hours before reporting for an 11 hr day then it will become compulsory to live an hour from your regular place of work. Or BA (and the CAA) could make enforce the spirit of legislation and protect the travelling public. The trouble is the guy in BA who would have to signal the changes lives in Newcastle. His home base is LHR.
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Justbelowcap,
my experience is, that the majority of problems with commuters lie usually with people, who commute say 3-6 hours DRIVING distance from the base. Often, they get attempted to drive just before duty, instead use the "B&B or Hotel" at the airport option.
People who commute from USA, Australia, etc to Europe can't afford to take the "last flight", therefore have contingencies in place and are usually well ahead their reporting time (24 hours, etc.) at base in a hotel, getting plenty of rest.
Just my 5 cents worth...
my experience is, that the majority of problems with commuters lie usually with people, who commute say 3-6 hours DRIVING distance from the base. Often, they get attempted to drive just before duty, instead use the "B&B or Hotel" at the airport option.
People who commute from USA, Australia, etc to Europe can't afford to take the "last flight", therefore have contingencies in place and are usually well ahead their reporting time (24 hours, etc.) at base in a hotel, getting plenty of rest.
Just my 5 cents worth...
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Commuting is a fact of life in the USA. Almost half our pilots commute from outside Phoenix - 900 pilots. We fly on a percentage basis more "redeye" or all night flights than most freight airlines. We have one domicile so we position crews from PHX to LAS every night, sometimes with a 3 hour sit in LAS before operating LAS to BOS or LAS to MIA. That's fatiguing, and it is the company doing that to the pilot group. We are professional enough to know when we have reached our limits. We have had exactly 1 incident in 20 years and it was fatigue related and neither pilot was a commuter. We have pilots commuting in from 2000 miles away to fly, everyone has a crashpad or a hotel room to rest before flying. The guys that drive more than 2 hours have it the worst but that's why the seats in the flightdeck recline. Personally, I live 15 miles from the airport, except for 2 months a year when I commute from YVR so I have a good appreciation of this problem. More rules are not needed - we are professionals here and we can self police the problem.
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We have pilots commuting in from 2000 miles away to fly, everyone has a crashpad or a hotel room to rest before flying.
More rules are not needed - we are professionals here and we can self police the problem.
The guys that drive more than 2 hours have it the worst but that's why the seats in the flightdeck recline.
"It's alright Captain I'm knackered at the moment but after a few hours kip on the aircraft I'll be OK"
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355N driver said:
Here is my 2cence worth. Would you want your Brain surgeon or Heart surgeon pulling this kind of thing before working on you? Not likely. Have a safe flight"
We don't know if he's taking some rest before a surgery, but what we are sure of is that he does not go for a medical check up nor a professional evaluation every six month!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Here is my 2cence worth. Would you want your Brain surgeon or Heart surgeon pulling this kind of thing before working on you? Not likely. Have a safe flight"
We don't know if he's taking some rest before a surgery, but what we are sure of is that he does not go for a medical check up nor a professional evaluation every six month!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
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I learnt about being knackered from that.....
An interesting thread - hopefully the SLF don't read it
A couple of years ago I had to pick up a C182 from
Meekatharra for delivery for major maintenance. The owner had flown it in the day before and I transitted up from Perth by Greyhound coach (the only means of transport available). This is a 12-14 hour trip and uncomfortable! The bus arrived at destination at 0130 but, no worries, I had accommodation booked at a local hotel and they were expecting a late arrival. Except that they had cocked up the dates and I was locked out.
After hunting round town for somewhere open (nil) and checking in with the local cop shop (no help) I eventually roused the taxi service and went out to the strip where I was told I could use the terminal building (Big shed really) which tended to be left open. With all the heaters turned on (very cold night) I hunkered down as best I could but with the cold and the discomfort I got no sleep at all.
I didn't have my night rating at the time but it wouldn't have made any difference. Fortunately I was wearing a watch which made the mandatory 4 instruments compliant! So as soon as some viz was apparent I cranked up the aircraft and leapt into the luft. The trip was about 3 hours and a fairly low sun shone straight into the cockpit from my side.
A couple of occasions I caught myself just beginning to nod off. it frightened me senseless
At overhead destination I was diverted to a nearby gravel strip (about 40 kms) as there were some problems at base and was told to wait there until I was called in. I explained that I was totally knackered and that I was unfit to fly and that they had better send one of the other pilots over to do the ferry back to base. I was told that no one could be spared and anyway, as it was only a short hop, it wouldn't be a problem.
I was kept waiting for over 2 hours before finally being cleared to fly in to base. OK, it went smoothly with no problems but I was awfully glad to get the wheels on terra firma. This is not something that will ever happen to me again Personal preservation and passenger safety (fortunately none on this flight) will always come first with me now.
Only you, the individual, can decided whether you are fit to fly but don't push on thinking that it will be OK. It could be fatal
An interesting thread - hopefully the SLF don't read it
A couple of years ago I had to pick up a C182 from
Meekatharra for delivery for major maintenance. The owner had flown it in the day before and I transitted up from Perth by Greyhound coach (the only means of transport available). This is a 12-14 hour trip and uncomfortable! The bus arrived at destination at 0130 but, no worries, I had accommodation booked at a local hotel and they were expecting a late arrival. Except that they had cocked up the dates and I was locked out.
After hunting round town for somewhere open (nil) and checking in with the local cop shop (no help) I eventually roused the taxi service and went out to the strip where I was told I could use the terminal building (Big shed really) which tended to be left open. With all the heaters turned on (very cold night) I hunkered down as best I could but with the cold and the discomfort I got no sleep at all.
I didn't have my night rating at the time but it wouldn't have made any difference. Fortunately I was wearing a watch which made the mandatory 4 instruments compliant! So as soon as some viz was apparent I cranked up the aircraft and leapt into the luft. The trip was about 3 hours and a fairly low sun shone straight into the cockpit from my side.
A couple of occasions I caught myself just beginning to nod off. it frightened me senseless
At overhead destination I was diverted to a nearby gravel strip (about 40 kms) as there were some problems at base and was told to wait there until I was called in. I explained that I was totally knackered and that I was unfit to fly and that they had better send one of the other pilots over to do the ferry back to base. I was told that no one could be spared and anyway, as it was only a short hop, it wouldn't be a problem.
I was kept waiting for over 2 hours before finally being cleared to fly in to base. OK, it went smoothly with no problems but I was awfully glad to get the wheels on terra firma. This is not something that will ever happen to me again Personal preservation and passenger safety (fortunately none on this flight) will always come first with me now.
Only you, the individual, can decided whether you are fit to fly but don't push on thinking that it will be OK. It could be fatal
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Just below
I'm not sure you are being deliberately sanctimonious but you've made a good job of it.
If BA paid there young co-pilots a better wage - even one that matched many of our cabin crew - then I'm sure more peolple would live nearer work.
In this day and aage commuting from France/Glasgow/Newcastle or even driving a few hours isn't a problem. I do agree that anothe continent is pushing it unless you leave plenty of recovery time as the three people I know that do this do.
So here's a suggestion. Stop moaning and get on with it.
Anyone with kids is usually shagged out before work anyway particularly on a night sector.
NN
I'm not sure you are being deliberately sanctimonious but you've made a good job of it.
If BA paid there young co-pilots a better wage - even one that matched many of our cabin crew - then I'm sure more peolple would live nearer work.
In this day and aage commuting from France/Glasgow/Newcastle or even driving a few hours isn't a problem. I do agree that anothe continent is pushing it unless you leave plenty of recovery time as the three people I know that do this do.
So here's a suggestion. Stop moaning and get on with it.
Anyone with kids is usually shagged out before work anyway particularly on a night sector.
NN
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Surely,presenting for a flight,is the responsibility of the professional pilot.So long as you are fit for duty,at the appointed hour,does it matter,where you live?
In other words,if you have to travel,long distances,do it with plenty of time to spare,the night before,or whatever,but sadly for at least the last 40 years,not everyone can live in Ascot and work from LHR.
The fact that pilots commute,is a reflection,that the job has consistently fallen behind,in terms of inflation and renumeration,as pay has not kept pace with the cost of living,especially in the SE.
To pitch up,knowingly fatigued,through poor planning,is unprofessional,but,preventable,and should not prevent puilots living where they wish.
QB
In other words,if you have to travel,long distances,do it with plenty of time to spare,the night before,or whatever,but sadly for at least the last 40 years,not everyone can live in Ascot and work from LHR.
The fact that pilots commute,is a reflection,that the job has consistently fallen behind,in terms of inflation and renumeration,as pay has not kept pace with the cost of living,especially in the SE.
To pitch up,knowingly fatigued,through poor planning,is unprofessional,but,preventable,and should not prevent puilots living where they wish.
QB
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At a former airline i used to work for in the late 80' s we had a captain who insisted on not being disturbed on night flights (ie no visits - poor FO ) , as he would always sleep - all sector .
Even on a LGW-PMI. (2 hours).
He had a long drive in from the west country, and i guess thats the reason he always demanded this.
However, 3 years on , sadly we were all informed that he had died instantly in a night time motorway crash .
He was obviously having the best of both worlds in his own mind, but also made his fo's suffer because of it (as nobody was allowed in the flight deck) , and then surely paid the highest price himself.....
Even on a LGW-PMI. (2 hours).
He had a long drive in from the west country, and i guess thats the reason he always demanded this.
However, 3 years on , sadly we were all informed that he had died instantly in a night time motorway crash .
He was obviously having the best of both worlds in his own mind, but also made his fo's suffer because of it (as nobody was allowed in the flight deck) , and then surely paid the highest price himself.....
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on a similar subject, CAP 371 has just changed with regards to the use of hire cars. It now stated that if a hire car is to be used to positon crew, then this must be classed as a sector and count towards the flight duty period. It also states that driving a hire car must be limited to 2.5 hours during any duty period.
So if driving a hire car for longer than 2.5 hours during a FDP causes fatigue, then I am sure that 3 hours driving before a FDP causes fatigue also.
So if driving a hire car for longer than 2.5 hours during a FDP causes fatigue, then I am sure that 3 hours driving before a FDP causes fatigue also.
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normalnigel
Yes it is a big problem. Fatigue is a killer and should be avoided. It's your sort of attitude that will eventually lead to a lot of people being killed. As it says on the motorway Tiredness Kills
I've no objection at all to people who commute large distances. But if you do then you should have accomodation near the airport where you can take rest before report. Where you choose to live should not effect how you turn up for work. You should be fully rested. That means not driving in excess of 90mins before report. It's time this was made current legislation.
In this day and aage commuting from France/Glasgow/Newcastle or even driving a few hours isn't a problem.
I've no objection at all to people who commute large distances. But if you do then you should have accomodation near the airport where you can take rest before report. Where you choose to live should not effect how you turn up for work. You should be fully rested. That means not driving in excess of 90mins before report. It's time this was made current legislation.
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Justbelowcap , So what happens if you live in Maidenhead and get stuck in a traffic jam for an hour and a half on the M25? Does BA cancel its schedule for the day? These are the dangers of taking away individual responsibility and trying to legislate.
Is the 90 mins to the carpark or to Report? It can take 30 mins to park your car and get to Compass Centre some days. Does that mean you can only live 60 mins away?
Is the 90 mins to the carpark or to Report? It can take 30 mins to park your car and get to Compass Centre some days. Does that mean you can only live 60 mins away?
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That's a fair point maxy101. But the people that I have a real problem with are driving MUCH MUCH further than 90mins or commuting for 5 hrs before report. It's these individuals that the company should really take to task.
Cornwall to LHR followed by a four sector 11:30 min duty day is not really playing the game.
Cornwall to LHR followed by a four sector 11:30 min duty day is not really playing the game.
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I guess maxy's question is one of the reasons why the 90 minute rule isn't really enforced. With airport authorities moving staff car parks further and further away from the airport, a lot of crew are spending longer getting from the car park to the crew room than from home to the airport.
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Funny thing is, when I was based at LGW, some people lived closer to the report centre than the Z car park. Big Tudor is right when he points out the likes of the BAA shove the staff car parks out in the middle of no- where ( as we don't have a choice) and save the convenient car parking for the passengers. They do have a choice . Again, I would emphasize the dangers in asking for legislation here. It will end up like the locked cockpit door fiasco, penalising UK based operators but seemingly having no effect on everybody else using UK airspace and flying periously close to the centre of London. Mind you, knocking down the Houses of Parliament might actually do democracy in the U.K a bit of good.
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If the CAA required pilots to be within 90 minutes of work then union pressure, and subsequently pressure from the courts, would lead to companies being required to provide accommodation for pilots close to work. Therefore the CAA do not make it obligatory or they will get airline companies complaining about the expense. It's so much easier just to make it the pilot's responsibilty. It's good old New Labour politics at work.
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Maxi101 asks if the '90 minute' advice of maximum travelling time is to the car park or to the place of report.
If you ask the CAA - as I have - they will tell you it's to the place of report. Their (logical) reasoning is that it's the entire journey that makes you tired/stressed. So driving past the airport to the staff car park, waiting for the bus then travelling back to the airport ALL counts as travelling time. The CAA's words, not mine.
But ask your company - once the corporate head is removed from the sand - and you'll get a different answer. Management don't have to wait in remote staff car parks, you see.
When these set of rules/guidelines were first incorporated in ops manuals, it was probably a reasonable compromise. Our (shorthaul) working day was easier, traffic volumes were a fraction of today's nightmare and minimum rest rostering was still in its infancy.
It can only be a matter of time before the realities of our lifestyle are tested before a court, following an incident where fatigue is alleged.
Legislation alone cannot be the answer and the powers that be will of course rely on the nebulous interpretation of the words 'regularly' and 'should'.
If you ask the CAA - as I have - they will tell you it's to the place of report. Their (logical) reasoning is that it's the entire journey that makes you tired/stressed. So driving past the airport to the staff car park, waiting for the bus then travelling back to the airport ALL counts as travelling time. The CAA's words, not mine.
But ask your company - once the corporate head is removed from the sand - and you'll get a different answer. Management don't have to wait in remote staff car parks, you see.
When these set of rules/guidelines were first incorporated in ops manuals, it was probably a reasonable compromise. Our (shorthaul) working day was easier, traffic volumes were a fraction of today's nightmare and minimum rest rostering was still in its infancy.
It can only be a matter of time before the realities of our lifestyle are tested before a court, following an incident where fatigue is alleged.
Legislation alone cannot be the answer and the powers that be will of course rely on the nebulous interpretation of the words 'regularly' and 'should'.
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Reading this thread with interest;I detect a little sanctimony,from JBC et al.
Youre happy to prevent people driving/travelling long distance,BEFORE they report,but OK with the concept,of the same journey home,AFTER a duty?
Imagine how you feel after a 12 hr LH sector,or a long 4 sector day,what then??Stay another night at LHR/LGW??Then refreshed drive home for a soomewhat reduced rest??
Tiredness does kill,but is death on the way home after a CAP 371 day,or indeed a company "approved" day,acceptable??
Your argument works BOTH ways,and most employers,are happy with the one way version,as are you,perhaps.
Turn up RESTED,go home,best you can,youve raised an important point,but dont berate people who cannot lead the life you do,turning up unfit,is irresponsible.Full stop.
QB
Youre happy to prevent people driving/travelling long distance,BEFORE they report,but OK with the concept,of the same journey home,AFTER a duty?
Imagine how you feel after a 12 hr LH sector,or a long 4 sector day,what then??Stay another night at LHR/LGW??Then refreshed drive home for a soomewhat reduced rest??
Tiredness does kill,but is death on the way home after a CAP 371 day,or indeed a company "approved" day,acceptable??
Your argument works BOTH ways,and most employers,are happy with the one way version,as are you,perhaps.
Turn up RESTED,go home,best you can,youve raised an important point,but dont berate people who cannot lead the life you do,turning up unfit,is irresponsible.Full stop.
QB
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The bottom line is that the CAA have provided a guideline that is totally and utterly ignored. What do they do about it as regulators.................................................. .......................nothing.
The regulators become more and more important in todays world of commercial pressure but the CAA are completely useless in this regard. Just take a look at how they deal with routes that have constant discretion reports, they do.......................................................... ..............................nothing
The operators include the 90 min rule in they OPS manuals ( because its a guideline) and what do they do to those that blatantly ignore this........................................................ ....nothing.
The pax get on board a plane that has two pilots flying the last sector of a multi sector day, 11hrs after they reported for duty and 16hrs after they both started their journey to work. They have had no rest at all during these 16hrs. Tiredness leads to mistakes, sometimes quite unbelieveable mistakes. The aircraft tries to take off without flap. What do the passengers do.......................................................... .............mostly they all die.
In the court room your widow and kids get to see the CAA take the stand.
"Not our fault we issued specific guidance on how long people should travel before they report for work"
Then the company get on the stand and make the same observation. "Not our fault either, its written in black and white how much time it should take our pilots to get to work"
Then the insurance companies and lawyers and relatives of the dead start taking everything that you ever had, including your reputation.
The saddest thing is that nobody is really interested in stopping people from being killed. They are only interested in not getting blamed for it.
It's time the regulators started acting like regulators and not some pseudo-legal, pass the buck club.
The regulators become more and more important in todays world of commercial pressure but the CAA are completely useless in this regard. Just take a look at how they deal with routes that have constant discretion reports, they do.......................................................... ..............................nothing
The operators include the 90 min rule in they OPS manuals ( because its a guideline) and what do they do to those that blatantly ignore this........................................................ ....nothing.
The pax get on board a plane that has two pilots flying the last sector of a multi sector day, 11hrs after they reported for duty and 16hrs after they both started their journey to work. They have had no rest at all during these 16hrs. Tiredness leads to mistakes, sometimes quite unbelieveable mistakes. The aircraft tries to take off without flap. What do the passengers do.......................................................... .............mostly they all die.
In the court room your widow and kids get to see the CAA take the stand.
"Not our fault we issued specific guidance on how long people should travel before they report for work"
Then the company get on the stand and make the same observation. "Not our fault either, its written in black and white how much time it should take our pilots to get to work"
Then the insurance companies and lawyers and relatives of the dead start taking everything that you ever had, including your reputation.
The saddest thing is that nobody is really interested in stopping people from being killed. They are only interested in not getting blamed for it.
It's time the regulators started acting like regulators and not some pseudo-legal, pass the buck club.
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The pax get on board a plane that has two pilots flying the last sector of a multi sector day, 11hrs after they reported for duty and 16hrs after they both started their journey to work. They have had no rest at all during these 16hrs. Tiredness leads to mistakes, sometimes quite unbelieveable mistakes. The aircraft tries to take off without flap. What do the passengers do.......................................................... .............mostly they all die.
Stop being so f*****g melodramatic
NN