Ryanair at it again!

[Mike-Hunt]

Guv,

I'm a PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT HOPE IT HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Guvnor]

mike-hunt - and your point is...?

pengineer - good one... as I said, my understanding is that if you come in with the rating in place that's fine by FR - they just whack you if you don't have it. Anyone on here from FR that can confirm?

[GuvBuster]

Guvvie,

When will you go on leave, soon???

[dickyd]

This is all so funny! wot we fighting about agian?

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Guvnor you will know when your walking down the steps .You have pissed off most pilots on here so stick to the trains.

[Idunno]

You're quite right 'big flight'...it's hard to keep track of a thread when the Guv gets going. He is a master of digression and diversion.
I guess he has to be since logic and reason desert him so quickly.

The subject was FR making a unilateral reduction of 50% in the fees it will pay to Aer Rianta (and only Aer Rianta).

Let's see if he can shut up or stick to the point. Either would give welcome relief.

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]

[Das Pferd]

mjenkinsblackdog and Idunno take a look at yourselves you have been wound up so much by the Guv that you are now making yourselves look like a bunch of plonkers. And to think that you guys may be flying over my house..?

[mjenkinsblackdog]

DAS stick to coffee tasting and stay out of this discussion.

[sgt.culpepper]

Idunno, I don't think Mo'L has found Aer Rianta to be such a soft target. As I recall they took him for £500,000 last year over disputed Airport fees, half of which was costs and interest. His ongoing spat with Aer Rianta has little to do with money but everything to do with free publicity.I'ts a strategy he uses in all his business areas, and it is very successful.However what pees him off with Aer Rianta is that he is getting nowhere fast and the Irish minister it seems won't even talk to him .He also talks about getting the go ahead to open up new routes out of Ireland if only airport charges were lower. Two things about that . One, he doesen't need permission from anyone to start up routes, and two , I see that last week aer rianta announced a no charges deal for 3/4 years for any airline opening new routes out of Dub/Cork or Shannon airports.
So it looks like Aer Rianta are calling his bluff!

[Idunno]

Dear Das Pferd, what in god's name are you on about? If anyone was getting 'wound up' it was Guvnor attacking pilots (again) as whingers, as you might see by reading the thread again. I disassociate myself entirely with any comments about off-loading people (even the Guvnor).
If you don't mind we'll continue with the debate while you go off and swop insults with mjenkinsblackdog.

SgtCulpepper is right about the 'PR' aspect of O'Learys comments. Sometimes I think everything that MOL says is solely directed at winding up the media into another frenzy of excitement over the latest stunt. Free front page news can't hurt...who was it said that there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Let's see if he really has the nerve to pull this 50% charges stunt...or if it's just another wind-up.

[The Guvnor]

Das Pferd - I don't think that Idunno is having a go or anything - the discussion was deviated somewhat by westjet and I was debating two different points. However, Idunno is quite right - the subject under discussion is FR and Aer Rianta.

I suspect, however, that mjenkinsblackdog may have rabies and might have to be put down

Back to the subject at hand...

Yep, MO'L does use rather 'Bransonesque' PR tactics. Aer Rianta offer a deal to everyone - even FR - that instead of the charges I provided above they have a 100% discount (ie free) on landing and passenger charges on new routes. This offer was originally for three years; I understand it's been extended to four.

However, the animosity between MO'L and Aer Rianta goes a lot deeper than just charges. They have been long time advocates of a second, non-Aer Rianta terminal at DUB and it looks like they have got their way. It's probable that this terminal will be a joint venture between FR and the McEvaddys.

There are persistent rumours about Aer Rianta being cut lose from the government's apron strings, and if that happens, things could get rather interesting.

Looking at things from Aer Rianta's perspective though, they really don't want the low cost carriers. Sure, they bring in lots of passengers - but as LTN has found with EZY, they end up costing the airport more than the revenue they bring in. In addition, having a low cost carrier on a route is a barrier to entry for a full service airline or a start-up - except of course for other low cost operators (eg the current dogfights going on between EZY, FR and GO).

When I was at the Routes conference in Dublin a few weeks ago, a number of airports made it very clear that they would not welcome the likes of FR.

FR - and its ilk - needs to grow at around 25% per annum to keep its investors happy - and of course the bigger it gets the bigger that 25% leap has to be. Finding viable new routes will be the biggest problem they face.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[dickyd]

are u a piloT? do u argue with everyone?

[A/c Slave]

I have been a long time observer of Pprune and being also in the industry I always learn alot from all the shared info and views here.

But the I feel the need to put in my 2 pence here on behalf of the 'Guv'.
'Hey Guv', thankx for all the info and updates you have passed on to us all here, please continue the good work.

For all the others that continue to attack him, you all are very sad and need to grow up!

I challenge the lot of you to come up with any of the info that the 'Guv' has been constantly suppling for our benifit,(even with the bashing of his name). He's a good sport! Can't say the same about some of you.

He's well informed and up to date and is trying to share this knowledge with us and idiots like some try to prevent that!

'Have a nice day!'

[Tug]

For what's it worth, I work for Ryanair. I am an FO.
I fly 900 hrs a year. I make about £3000. per month after tax.
Pilots starting with Ryanair today as an FO will also fly 900 hrs a year. They will make about £1500. a month after tax. They will also have to pay for their car parking. And their uniform. And their type rating. And when they are told that they will have to move to a European base, they will have to pay for that move and accept a lower salary, ie less than £1500 per month.
When time comes for a command, they will have to accept that there could be a high chance that they will not be getting the same salary as present Captains.
They will still fly 900 hrs a year.

I like flying for Ryanair. There is a great bunch of guys there and on the whole not too many whinge. We work hard and get paid very well for that work.

But the new guys will work just as hard and not get paid very well.

It's up to those who have the money to spend on a type rating to decide whether the cost is worth it. MOL is banking on Sept 11th to persuade pilots that it is. Is any job at any wage better than none? Some will say yes.

And remember, Ryanair NO LONGER PAYS HIGH WAGES ANYMORE to those who are thinking of joining. It will be a low wage, low cost airline.

That's how I see it. Let the criticisms come my way. Yes, I do get paid a lot. That was the incentive to fly 900 hrs a year.
Is £1500 pm incentive enough for the new guys? It must be because they are applying.
How much can you expect to earn once you've been in a while, say as a Captain. I can't answer that because there will be a take or leave it offer upon getting your command determined at the time by the appropriate market forces.
I would like to stress I am saying it as it is to the best of my ability. I have done well out of Ryanair as have hundreds of others. But it is no longer a place for new guys, experienced or otherwise, to make oodles of money for loads of flying.

There, that's my piece. I don't think I have been negative or positive.

[jumpseater]

Slave, when I read Guv's posts re the area of the industry I know most about, his info is frequently wrong, therefore he is often ill informed and out of date. He does post some usefull discussion topics I'll agree, however he often follows it with inaccurate speculation which winds a lot of people up, myself included on occasion. For example regarding airport operations, stating some time ago that easyJet were having problems with their Liverpool base, however easyJet at that time, had just signed a 25 year deal with Peel Holdings re operating at Liverpool. He could not have been more wrong had he tried!.

I do recall on another discussion board he admitted to impersonating a female lawyer to prove his point. At that moment he lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned, I am probably not alone in that respect.

[A/c Slave]

I agree 'Jumpseater', some of his post are inaccurate.
But his overall contributions have been better than most here.

I don't know where the hell he gets his info from or where he works etc, he can be an aviation wanna be or super spotter or whatever,,,
It's just that I found that too many people were knocking the bloke for no reason now. Even like in this thread where his contributions were one of the most with PROPER and to the point infomation, while everyone was concerntrating on bashing him than trying to carry on an intelligent debate.

This site 'PPRUNE' was set up for the avaition industry to have a common meeting place to share ideas, info, knowledge and RUMOUR!
Lets keep it that way!!


'Have a nice day'

[Idunno]

Tug has just made one of the most informative and important posts yet on this thread, but you guys are (yet again) distracted by The Guvnors antics. Ignore them.

I don't know who Tug is but as an FR pilot he's saying everything that I've been forecasting would happen is alrady occurring.

Look, if you were gonna start an airline where you needed maximum turnover to survive...wouldn't you want the pilots kept happy and productive? Of course you would!
So how do you achieve that? Pay 'em well, and use large incentive payments to extract the work. It's a formula that the Ryans were using long before MOL or Ryanair were ever heard of.

But (and it's a big but) the day will eventually come when keeping the pilots happy doesn't need to cost so much any more...and where the incentive to work is provided by outside factors. (i.e. work or starve.)

That day has arrived.

So, our hero (well maybe yours...not mine) has decided he can extract an extra mile or two from the faithfull. Like it or lump it.
You know where the door is...etc.

I hope that reality is finally dawning on you all. MOLs only friend is the share price.
I feel your pain.

[The Guvnor]

Idunno - now who's getting distracted? I thought this thread was supposed to be about FR and Aer Rianta!

Seriously, though, this is precisely what I have been saying will happen for months now. Pay rates are going to come waaaaaaay down, across the board, for all carriers. MO'L is simply the vanguard - everyone else is watching him to see if he can make it work. And when - not if - he does, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon. If you don't like it - to quote yourself - you know where the door is.

There are more than sufficient people out there who are happy to fly for the love of it to compensate for loss of those who only fly because its an overpaid job.

Frankly, £1,500 nett for someone on the bottom of the ladder is not a bad whack at all - that would be a gross of over £2,000 per month.

If the revised Captain's pay will be on a similar basis - ie 50% of what it is at present - then you're looking at a take-home of around £2,500 with a gross of around £4,000.

If I was in MO'Ls shoes, I'd be playing around with the allowances so that the take-home is maximised without it affecting the amount being paid out by FR; and again I'd be doing what Southwest does - give everyone share options. Other than that, I reckon those figures are pretty fair - and realistic - all things considered.

Hopefully, these cost cuts will enable our industry to stay aloft.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[sgt.culpepper]

Guvnor, not sure I fully agree with your analysis of the FR/Aer Rianta spat.A second terminal at Dublin will eventually be built many years down the line, but it will not be built by either FR or McEvaddy.Neither will it be a competing terminal.History shows that this formula does not work. As I said on other related threads, if competing terminals were such a great idea why dosen't every airport have one?
Ever heard of a duopoly.On your second point re EZY and LTN As far as i recall, Aer Rianta are fairly unique in that they run all or most of the shops etc . Pax are the life blood of any airport and the more of them the more oppertunitiy for shops bars etc to shake 'em down.I enjoy your posts and find them fairly accurate but I think you place too much credence on media stories.In my experience Media get it wrong at least 50% of the time.

[The Guvnor]

Sgt.Culpepper - I have to disagree with you re the second terminal; you only have to look at the way airports operate in the States (especially somewhere like New York) to see that competing terminals can and do work.

There's also no major difference in the way that Aer Rianta and say BAA work in terms of retailing: both own the main duty free shop, and both rent out space to third parties, forwhich they charge rent plus a concession fee (percentage of turnover).