BA pension and pay fiasco
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5415N + HF
Well open to be proved wrong here but my calculator does things like this
Yearly Salary = £75000 ( reduced and conceded a bit )
40% tax threshold = £ 28400 PA
Pension = 6.5% of salary
NI = 7.5 % salary
Tax up to £28400 depending on code but average at £2760PA
£75000 / 12 = £6250 PMC
Pension = £406 PCM
NI = £469 PCM
Tax up to 40% trigger = £230 PCM
Tax above 40% trigger = £1553 PCM
So 6250 - 406 - 469 - 230 - 1553 = £3592 PCM
Open to offers and it wont be the first time i am wrong but that was how my calculator worked it out!
However if i am wrong and senior F/Os get 55K you are under paid,in engineering we know we are under paid,i
dont need a calculator to do my own figures
Well open to be proved wrong here but my calculator does things like this
Yearly Salary = £75000 ( reduced and conceded a bit )
40% tax threshold = £ 28400 PA
Pension = 6.5% of salary
NI = 7.5 % salary
Tax up to £28400 depending on code but average at £2760PA
£75000 / 12 = £6250 PMC
Pension = £406 PCM
NI = £469 PCM
Tax up to 40% trigger = £230 PCM
Tax above 40% trigger = £1553 PCM
So 6250 - 406 - 469 - 230 - 1553 = £3592 PCM
Open to offers and it wont be the first time i am wrong but that was how my calculator worked it out!
However if i am wrong and senior F/Os get 55K you are under paid,in engineering we know we are under paid,i
dont need a calculator to do my own figures
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Averages tell us just that thus some may earn the sum stated but others may be earning nearly twice that. As an aside to this BA ramp workers with overtime are often earning well in excess of £30,000 some will be earning £35,000. They do not enjoy the long periods of time off but it reflects that perhaps there are many roles within BA that are over / under valued.
Bottom line pension is pay up or find suitable employment with others that offer such reasonable pensions.
Perhaps a pruner can tell me what will happen when the crew fraternity can stay until they are 60 in 2006. Are plans in place for pension readjustment or are the company just going to hope for the best.
Rod will probably leave early next year announcing his intention later this year and then Martin (batman) will bring in new hatchet men to break the present kinds of custom / practice and instigate changes required for T/5 operations.
Bottom line pension is pay up or find suitable employment with others that offer such reasonable pensions.
Perhaps a pruner can tell me what will happen when the crew fraternity can stay until they are 60 in 2006. Are plans in place for pension readjustment or are the company just going to hope for the best.
Rod will probably leave early next year announcing his intention later this year and then Martin (batman) will bring in new hatchet men to break the present kinds of custom / practice and instigate changes required for T/5 operations.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Rimmer,
Just had a look at the payslip. In a full month (Jan), my gross was about £5700 (£68400pa) including allowances. This gave a net of about £3700 (shocking, that's New Labour for you). Based upon six weeks of leave/DFW per year, knock off six weeks of allowances (flight pay, time away from base payment) which equates to about £250 per week on average (£1500 gross pa). Give or take. This gives me a gross pay of around £67k pa and a net of around £42k. BALPA will tell you I'm benchmarked, even though I do 15% more hours than a contempory at KLM, LH or AF.
Hope this clears it up - and if I could vote the engineers a rise, I would.
HF
PS: My basic pay (which is the one that counts I suppose is £51k).
Just had a look at the payslip. In a full month (Jan), my gross was about £5700 (£68400pa) including allowances. This gave a net of about £3700 (shocking, that's New Labour for you). Based upon six weeks of leave/DFW per year, knock off six weeks of allowances (flight pay, time away from base payment) which equates to about £250 per week on average (£1500 gross pa). Give or take. This gives me a gross pay of around £67k pa and a net of around £42k. BALPA will tell you I'm benchmarked, even though I do 15% more hours than a contempory at KLM, LH or AF.
Hope this clears it up - and if I could vote the engineers a rise, I would.
HF
PS: My basic pay (which is the one that counts I suppose is £51k).
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HF
What can i say,as a honest answer we all deserve more,i know for a fact that the CSDs get 67K ( one of the guys in my section - his mum is one ) and there are engineering managers in jobs producing nothing on similar amounts.
For ourselves we get constantly upset having a bad day and getting grief from cabin crew,after all i could say Hello/Goodbye and Chicken or Beef,its not really rocket is it.
One thing i will add though from an engineering perspective is whenever we compare our shift pay / wages with KLM or AF all we get is the answer " market forces,if you dont like it F*** off " and thats an official quote from an engineering SM.
HZ123
Sorry mate but i have read your post and dont know what on earth you are saying.
If its that the loaders can earn 30K a year with o/t then best of luck to them ( there must be that much work ).
Not sure what your comment about flt crew and 2006 means either,the age 55 retirement is a negotiated one not a CAA or UK Gov policy,that could be negotiated to change now if parties so wished.
Regarding the pension,NAPs was introduced to replace APS because APS was too expensive for the New BA,if the entire concept of NAPs relied on a FTSE average above 7000 then there are certain pension fund managers that deserve the sack,where it is today must ( and should have ) been viewed as slightly below the average,lets be honest the index wasnt at 7000 when NAPs was concieved
What can i say,as a honest answer we all deserve more,i know for a fact that the CSDs get 67K ( one of the guys in my section - his mum is one ) and there are engineering managers in jobs producing nothing on similar amounts.
For ourselves we get constantly upset having a bad day and getting grief from cabin crew,after all i could say Hello/Goodbye and Chicken or Beef,its not really rocket is it.
One thing i will add though from an engineering perspective is whenever we compare our shift pay / wages with KLM or AF all we get is the answer " market forces,if you dont like it F*** off " and thats an official quote from an engineering SM.
HZ123
Sorry mate but i have read your post and dont know what on earth you are saying.
If its that the loaders can earn 30K a year with o/t then best of luck to them ( there must be that much work ).
Not sure what your comment about flt crew and 2006 means either,the age 55 retirement is a negotiated one not a CAA or UK Gov policy,that could be negotiated to change now if parties so wished.
Regarding the pension,NAPs was introduced to replace APS because APS was too expensive for the New BA,if the entire concept of NAPs relied on a FTSE average above 7000 then there are certain pension fund managers that deserve the sack,where it is today must ( and should have ) been viewed as slightly below the average,lets be honest the index wasnt at 7000 when NAPs was concieved
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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"market forces,if you dont like it F*** off "
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HF : I agree totally
Rimmer : excellant reply and speaking for myself I am constantly amazed by your( all engineers) professional approach and with a few exceptions your good humour.You guys work hard and to be treated in that way by your bosses is out of order.
ALSO :
NO CSD IS WORTH £67,000 pa
cheers
5415N
Rimmer : excellant reply and speaking for myself I am constantly amazed by your( all engineers) professional approach and with a few exceptions your good humour.You guys work hard and to be treated in that way by your bosses is out of order.
ALSO :
NO CSD IS WORTH £67,000 pa
cheers
5415N
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One thing i will add though from an engineering perspective is whenever we compare our shift pay / wages with KLM or AF all we get is the answer " market forces,if you dont like it F*** off " and thats an official quote from an engineering SM.
It does not really matter what someone earns, but it is the fact that the company are trying to shaft the work force once again.
When every company car, company mobile phone and little management empire has gone then it will be time to consider more cost cutting/pension increases but not untill all that has happened.
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Monthly,
With you on that.
Flight Ops management is still very generous to itself but insists the rest take an effective pay cut.
I'll be happy to oblige when their nest is as empty of feathers as mine.
Leander
With you on that.
Flight Ops management is still very generous to itself but insists the rest take an effective pay cut.
I'll be happy to oblige when their nest is as empty of feathers as mine.
Leander
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I see the new gov figures on average pay inflation in the UK are out.
3.5% ave pay rises for the public sector
3.0% ave pay rises for the private sector
Rod you have no chance with 1% less 3% or in other words
MINUS 2%
BA employees will be going DOWN relative to UK PLC by
5% and even more compared with GOV UK
Somebody in Waterworld needs to
START TALKING SENSIBLE OFFERS
3.5% ave pay rises for the public sector
3.0% ave pay rises for the private sector
Rod you have no chance with 1% less 3% or in other words
MINUS 2%
BA employees will be going DOWN relative to UK PLC by
5% and even more compared with GOV UK
Somebody in Waterworld needs to
START TALKING SENSIBLE OFFERS
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 23rd Mar 2004 at 14:08.
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Interestingly Flt-It-W-Mitty, the much heralded, highly spun, pay deal last year was a pay cut for some, despite assurances to the contrary. Suddenly after its all dusted down, one senior Nigel BALPA member gets a Management post. I know its happened before and will probably happen again. It does however make one think.
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5415N, I agree with you 100%:
But look what's happened in the past when changes (to pay or numbers of) CC were made. Ailing Ayling tried and got a 2 day strike.
This is surely the real problem of BA - no wholesale reforms can ever be made because the party that feels the most maligned will simply strike; and BA can't afford that.
Surely the answer has to be better IR from BOTH sides. At the moment, all I hear is "If I don't immediately like it, I'll strike"... Rarely "If I don't like it, I'll negotiate".
no CSD is worth £67,000 a year
This is surely the real problem of BA - no wholesale reforms can ever be made because the party that feels the most maligned will simply strike; and BA can't afford that.
Surely the answer has to be better IR from BOTH sides. At the moment, all I hear is "If I don't immediately like it, I'll strike"... Rarely "If I don't like it, I'll negotiate".
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ojs
What can i say,working for engineering we constantly get the short straw and are a very mild weak group,searching for things to say i think its best to give you an example.
Each year when it comes to pay NEGOTIATIONS our group puts forward a claim,its normally about 20 odd items and its been like that for 10 years at least,the management chuck out 19 of them and just talk about any basic pay increase,this year and the last 2 we have taken the view that " OK the industry is in the S***,September the 11th etc etc" - if we cant have a pay rise lets talk about things that cost very little such as staff travel,regrading schemes,long term increments etc - Were they interested - Were they B****X.
BA managers have a fixed agenda and only negotiate for things they want,i believe its a compound problem,the reason the company is in a mess is too many managers and in order to change things you have to try and negotiate with them > They are all S*** scared of making a decision.
Within engineering any manager that tells the engineering director " Nope i don't think that will work " doesn't get promoted or gets sent to some C*** side job,the ones that get promoted ( subject to lodge acceptance first of course ) are the ones that say " Sure all the lads will do permanent nights and take a pay cut while enjoying it "
BA managers don't negotiate because " One day it might affect them " they are in constant danger of some little kid telling the truth saying " The Emperor has got no cloths on"
What can i say,working for engineering we constantly get the short straw and are a very mild weak group,searching for things to say i think its best to give you an example.
Each year when it comes to pay NEGOTIATIONS our group puts forward a claim,its normally about 20 odd items and its been like that for 10 years at least,the management chuck out 19 of them and just talk about any basic pay increase,this year and the last 2 we have taken the view that " OK the industry is in the S***,September the 11th etc etc" - if we cant have a pay rise lets talk about things that cost very little such as staff travel,regrading schemes,long term increments etc - Were they interested - Were they B****X.
BA managers have a fixed agenda and only negotiate for things they want,i believe its a compound problem,the reason the company is in a mess is too many managers and in order to change things you have to try and negotiate with them > They are all S*** scared of making a decision.
Within engineering any manager that tells the engineering director " Nope i don't think that will work " doesn't get promoted or gets sent to some C*** side job,the ones that get promoted ( subject to lodge acceptance first of course ) are the ones that say " Sure all the lads will do permanent nights and take a pay cut while enjoying it "
BA managers don't negotiate because " One day it might affect them " they are in constant danger of some little kid telling the truth saying " The Emperor has got no cloths on"
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IDUNNO
I totally agree with you. Those pilots and airline employees out there in other UK airlines that think BA pilots, cabin crew, engineers, etc. are overpaid think on this..........
Do you think you will get a larger pay rise if BA employees get less?
If we get less YOU will get an even worse deal.
Why because like it or not we are the largest and most unionised in the UK industry.
We set the benchmark for the industry.
If we get peanuts YOU will get half a peanut.
Anyone in the independent sector who negotiates paydeals knows that we set the rate.
Virgin for example is in a better position financially than BA.
Their representatives have not been able to negotiate a final salary scheme, or more cash for their crew in excess of the BA remuneration, and I thought Richard was a nice man who loves his airline and employees.
The fact is that we in BA are the pay and conditions ceiling, and it has to be kept up for everybody's sake.
I totally agree with you. Those pilots and airline employees out there in other UK airlines that think BA pilots, cabin crew, engineers, etc. are overpaid think on this..........
Do you think you will get a larger pay rise if BA employees get less?
If we get less YOU will get an even worse deal.
Why because like it or not we are the largest and most unionised in the UK industry.
We set the benchmark for the industry.
If we get peanuts YOU will get half a peanut.
Anyone in the independent sector who negotiates paydeals knows that we set the rate.
Virgin for example is in a better position financially than BA.
Their representatives have not been able to negotiate a final salary scheme, or more cash for their crew in excess of the BA remuneration, and I thought Richard was a nice man who loves his airline and employees.
The fact is that we in BA are the pay and conditions ceiling, and it has to be kept up for everybody's sake.
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A bit of a late reply to Lucifer's rant about accountants conferences and Christmas dinners, but to answer some of his/her asumptions I don't, never have and never will work for BA, I'm not a pilot/trolley/dolly/engineer or accountant and I frankly don't give a hoot about balance sheets or how much slots are worth. I know money being wasted when I see it, though.
BA sh csd , works approx 18-20 days a month , on average 7-10 years in company take home approx 2700-3100 .
BA LICENSED ENGINEER, CERTIFYING RESPONSIBILITY FOR 5 (YES FIVE) DIFFERENT AIRCRAFT TYPES, GOD KNOWS HOW MANY OTHER OPERATORS, 12 AT LAST COUNT, (EACH WITH THEIR OWN SET OF RULES, REGULATIONS, PAPERWORK AND PROCEDURES), WORKS APPROX 20 DAYS A MONTH, TAKE HOME LESS THAN £2000 A MONTH.
Sorry to shout, but the above quote about cc rates of pay makes me........
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I love the way this thread has gone from paying cabin crew £2000 per month to £67k for a CSD...
I am a Purser on Longhaul out of LHR who's been flying some twenty years.
Over the past 12 months my take home pay has averaged out at £1850 per month (£22,200 nett).
By all available measures, I get a fair share of trips.
That is a simple fact. Not hearsay, not rumour, not some mother's son.
Believe it or believe it not, it remains the truth.
I am a Purser on Longhaul out of LHR who's been flying some twenty years.
Over the past 12 months my take home pay has averaged out at £1850 per month (£22,200 nett).
By all available measures, I get a fair share of trips.
That is a simple fact. Not hearsay, not rumour, not some mother's son.
Believe it or believe it not, it remains the truth.
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Wishing It Were True
What can i say,i don't earn big bucks and by the sound of it neither do you, CSDs on the other hand do - How do i know this? well two ways ... >>>
Firstly, i have a relation who is a Longhaul CSD and makes at least 67K a year ( often more ) that has no problems confessing such each time i visit his 1/2 million pound home.
Secondly, I remember when i joined BA "" *?)£^% "" years ago reading a article in the new ( to me ) BA news,it was from a DC10 flight engineer ( i was working the DC10 then that's what caught my eye ),he was moaning about having to work long sectors - Blah Blah Blah ( you know the bit ) and getting paid less than the chief cabin crew member " The CSD " .............
The BA response was " yes your right,this is a union agreed position with its Terms and Conditions,sorry but you will find the CSD earns more than the F/O as well " <<< think that last bit was BA attempt to make the F/E feel better.....
What can i say,i don't earn big bucks and by the sound of it neither do you, CSDs on the other hand do - How do i know this? well two ways ... >>>
Firstly, i have a relation who is a Longhaul CSD and makes at least 67K a year ( often more ) that has no problems confessing such each time i visit his 1/2 million pound home.
Secondly, I remember when i joined BA "" *?)£^% "" years ago reading a article in the new ( to me ) BA news,it was from a DC10 flight engineer ( i was working the DC10 then that's what caught my eye ),he was moaning about having to work long sectors - Blah Blah Blah ( you know the bit ) and getting paid less than the chief cabin crew member " The CSD " .............
The BA response was " yes your right,this is a union agreed position with its Terms and Conditions,sorry but you will find the CSD earns more than the F/O as well " <<< think that last bit was BA attempt to make the F/E feel better.....
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Perhaps that's true, perhaps not - its not unknown for people to claim higher earnings in the belief it boosts their status.
And perhaps he might be on the old old contract, the one before the current old contract which precedes the current new contract
. The one where the NRA is still 60.
It does appear that an awful lot of people are very pre-occupied with what others, doing entirely different jobs, earn. I do not differentiate to the relative worths of the workers (sorry, I exclude the suits), we are all necessary.
When we joined the airline, we signed the contract and presumably were content with the total benefits package as offered... otherwise why take the job.
From time to time salaries and T&C's are changed by the company and / or our union representitives (though admittedly this has been one way traffic recently).
It is my understanding that part of the pilots recent restructuring was made possible by the fact that some extremely well paid senior Captains retired. No doubt the current flight crew community will not see those levels of earnings again.
I earn what I earn, which is admittedly more than those who joined on a post '97 contract. No doubt they will earn more than those responding to the current vacancies.
And perhaps he might be on the old old contract, the one before the current old contract which precedes the current new contract
. The one where the NRA is still 60. It does appear that an awful lot of people are very pre-occupied with what others, doing entirely different jobs, earn. I do not differentiate to the relative worths of the workers (sorry, I exclude the suits), we are all necessary.
When we joined the airline, we signed the contract and presumably were content with the total benefits package as offered... otherwise why take the job.
From time to time salaries and T&C's are changed by the company and / or our union representitives (though admittedly this has been one way traffic recently).
It is my understanding that part of the pilots recent restructuring was made possible by the fact that some extremely well paid senior Captains retired. No doubt the current flight crew community will not see those levels of earnings again.
I earn what I earn, which is admittedly more than those who joined on a post '97 contract. No doubt they will earn more than those responding to the current vacancies.