BA pension and pay fiasco
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maxy101
Maybe - maybe not
I paste this comment from a different site to show the feeling that we are not all the same as far as pension benefits go.
By the way - figures are not mine
As I understand it, BA pilots get exactly the same benefits as everybody else.
I paste this comment from a different site to show the feeling that we are not all the same as far as pension benefits go.
These are the assumptions and i think they are realistic.
BA Technician Basic earnings ( 2004 ) £27000 -- Retirement age 60, started pension at 18, pays 5.25% contribution.
BA Shorthaul Captain earnings ( 2004 ) £85000 -- Retirement age 55, started pension at 18, pays 6.25% contribution.
Average age of death now is 80 by official figures.
Here is the basic premise.
Technician
>> Pays £1123PA for 42 years or £47178 ( £27000 - £6000 X 5.25% X 42 )
>> Receives £14000PA for 20 years or £280000 ( £27000 - £6000 abatement X 2/3 )
SO THE BA TECHNICIAN RECEIVES 5.93 TIMES WHAT HE / SHE PAYS IN
Captain
>> Pays £2437PA for 17 years or £41437 ( £45000 - £6000 X 6.25% X 17 )
+ £4937PA for 20 years or £98750 ( £85000 - £6000 X 6.25% X 20 ) = £140187
>> Receives £52666 for 25 years or £1316660 ( £85000 - £6000 abatement X 2/3 )
SO THE BA CAPTAIN RECEIVES 9.392 TIMES WHAT HE / SHE PAYS IN
BA Technician Basic earnings ( 2004 ) £27000 -- Retirement age 60, started pension at 18, pays 5.25% contribution.
BA Shorthaul Captain earnings ( 2004 ) £85000 -- Retirement age 55, started pension at 18, pays 6.25% contribution.
Average age of death now is 80 by official figures.
Here is the basic premise.
Technician
>> Pays £1123PA for 42 years or £47178 ( £27000 - £6000 X 5.25% X 42 )
>> Receives £14000PA for 20 years or £280000 ( £27000 - £6000 abatement X 2/3 )
SO THE BA TECHNICIAN RECEIVES 5.93 TIMES WHAT HE / SHE PAYS IN
Captain
>> Pays £2437PA for 17 years or £41437 ( £45000 - £6000 X 6.25% X 17 )
+ £4937PA for 20 years or £98750 ( £85000 - £6000 X 6.25% X 20 ) = £140187
>> Receives £52666 for 25 years or £1316660 ( £85000 - £6000 abatement X 2/3 )
SO THE BA CAPTAIN RECEIVES 9.392 TIMES WHAT HE / SHE PAYS IN
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Jet II I can´t see an obvious flaw in your figures. What I would bet my pension on though, is that the actuaries have each group of staff profiled , hence separate accrual rates (different APS/NAPS). If the scheme wasn´t cost neutral (whether through differing death rates, or increased compound interest calculations or perhaps a higher % of flight crew leaving or not drawing a BA pension), then surely they are not doing their job properly.
Flying Dutchman I´m not sure what your problem is? I merely point out that not all flight crew in BA are highly paid and you start firing from the hip. Are you F/C or C/C? I don´t get your point. Do you accept that some of our P2´s should be earning more ? Unfortunately, I was outvoted in the restructuring ballot. I voted No, precisely for the reason that is manifesting itself now,in that BA are going to backpedal on a pay rise for the next few years.
If you are C/C in BA, do you think CSD´s and some Pursers can be justified in taking home over 3000 quid a month? If so, why do you begrudge some of our pilots taking home less than 3000?
Can you see why some of these F/C might get a bit upset when they see this going on, and various other depts taking the mickey, whilst they are paid LESS than the going rate and everybody else is paid MORE than the going rate?
Then , to cap it all, fellow employees turn around and begrudge them a decent pay rise?
To those people not working for BA, this happens all the time...
Flying Dutchman I´m not sure what your problem is? I merely point out that not all flight crew in BA are highly paid and you start firing from the hip. Are you F/C or C/C? I don´t get your point. Do you accept that some of our P2´s should be earning more ? Unfortunately, I was outvoted in the restructuring ballot. I voted No, precisely for the reason that is manifesting itself now,in that BA are going to backpedal on a pay rise for the next few years.
If you are C/C in BA, do you think CSD´s and some Pursers can be justified in taking home over 3000 quid a month? If so, why do you begrudge some of our pilots taking home less than 3000?
Can you see why some of these F/C might get a bit upset when they see this going on, and various other depts taking the mickey, whilst they are paid LESS than the going rate and everybody else is paid MORE than the going rate?
Then , to cap it all, fellow employees turn around and begrudge them a decent pay rise?
To those people not working for BA, this happens all the time...
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Dear maxy101,
My point ? Well, I don't begrudge anyone a decent wage. Not you and not anyone else.
One day you too will be a P1, with lots of seniority, top of the bidline and on a very good wage and you will have put in the hours and the hard work to get where you are and you deserve every penny you get.
However, you are now at a stage in your career where people in other jobs make more money than you do and it seems to upset you.
Should you, by rights, always earn more than any member of cabin crew, or any other group of workers, no matter what ?
As for being paid 'less than the going rate', I keep hearing that Company pilots are now benchmarked and in line with other EU airline pilots. Are you saying that this is not so ?
Done to death in the private forum(s), but it would have been interesting to hear what your overriding concerns were when you voted against the new arrangements. Sadly, all water under the bridge now.
As an aside, did you mean to say: 'why do you begrudge some of our pilots taking home less than 3000?' ?
Dear vasco,
I was comparing basic pay only. However, a 'new contract' cabin crew member earning 40 k plus would be quite something. Not heard that, or seen any evidence of it, before. That would mean Mrs. Vasco's making quite some Variable Pay. Is she fluent in Japanese ? If she is indeed making 40 k plus, then you and your mortgage lender must be delighted !
Also, if Mrs. Vasco managed nearly two hours in the bunks on a 5.40 hour Boston, then 2 x 2.25 hours breaks would have left 50 minutes to do two meal services, cabin checks etcetera. Or have I misread this ?
Now, I am sure the five minute detour via the Bath Road didn't kill the two guys at the front. If memory serves, the joint bus was given up voluntarily under a previous exercise and, moreso, perhaps the overtime payment should have been kept. Then the Company would have made sure stands were always available on arrival and the buses would definitely be running on time, don't you think ?
My point ? Well, I don't begrudge anyone a decent wage. Not you and not anyone else.
One day you too will be a P1, with lots of seniority, top of the bidline and on a very good wage and you will have put in the hours and the hard work to get where you are and you deserve every penny you get.
However, you are now at a stage in your career where people in other jobs make more money than you do and it seems to upset you.
Should you, by rights, always earn more than any member of cabin crew, or any other group of workers, no matter what ?
As for being paid 'less than the going rate', I keep hearing that Company pilots are now benchmarked and in line with other EU airline pilots. Are you saying that this is not so ?
Done to death in the private forum(s), but it would have been interesting to hear what your overriding concerns were when you voted against the new arrangements. Sadly, all water under the bridge now.
As an aside, did you mean to say: 'why do you begrudge some of our pilots taking home less than 3000?' ?
Dear vasco,
I was comparing basic pay only. However, a 'new contract' cabin crew member earning 40 k plus would be quite something. Not heard that, or seen any evidence of it, before. That would mean Mrs. Vasco's making quite some Variable Pay. Is she fluent in Japanese ? If she is indeed making 40 k plus, then you and your mortgage lender must be delighted !
Also, if Mrs. Vasco managed nearly two hours in the bunks on a 5.40 hour Boston, then 2 x 2.25 hours breaks would have left 50 minutes to do two meal services, cabin checks etcetera. Or have I misread this ?
Now, I am sure the five minute detour via the Bath Road didn't kill the two guys at the front. If memory serves, the joint bus was given up voluntarily under a previous exercise and, moreso, perhaps the overtime payment should have been kept. Then the Company would have made sure stands were always available on arrival and the buses would definitely be running on time, don't you think ?
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I was under the impression you BA guys got a pretty good deal on pay in April 2003? Why are you already going back for more in the present economic predicament of your company and the industry? Why are yoo always demanding more? Are you not the best paid pilots in the UK already?
Incidentally, you might like to spare a thought for your colleagues at BACX who haven't had a pay rise in 3 years (5 years for some) - a Christmas voucher worth £35 pounds was sent to all staff 2 years ago - and are paid FDP at £1.50 (no change there in 10 years)......oh and money pucrchase pension only etc.
Incidentally, you might like to spare a thought for your colleagues at BACX who haven't had a pay rise in 3 years (5 years for some) - a Christmas voucher worth £35 pounds was sent to all staff 2 years ago - and are paid FDP at £1.50 (no change there in 10 years)......oh and money pucrchase pension only etc.
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Idunno
The "wise" would note that BA is on the verge of becoming history.
As is my outfit.
I'll say again, for the hard of understanding ----- get real or go bust.
(BTW, slightly separate point --- BALPA does stand for British Airways Line Pilot's Association, does'nt it ? What hope for the pilots outside of the magic circle ?)
You guys who are telling the BA pilots to 'wise up' because you got a 'big fat zero' pay rise....maybe its YOU who need to wise up.
As is my outfit.
I'll say again, for the hard of understanding ----- get real or go bust.
(BTW, slightly separate point --- BALPA does stand for British Airways Line Pilot's Association, does'nt it ? What hope for the pilots outside of the magic circle ?)
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Anthony Carn Perhaps the point is the people athat are getting MORE than the going rate for the job should "wise up"?
Not many pilots in that bracket, i´m afraid. If we were, do you seriously think we would be complaining now?
Not many pilots in that bracket, i´m afraid. If we were, do you seriously think we would be complaining now?
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MORE than the going rate for the job
The "wise" would note that BA is on the verge of becoming history.
How big a pay cut by pilots will save BA?
Maybe 50P is indeed the going rate?
I'm glad you enlightened me though. I laboured for all these years under the misconception that good management was what made companies succesful. Silly me.
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TURIN said in part.......
" I suggest you take a look at the details squire. BA pilots get THE best pension deal."
Aviate 1138
Funny but a recently[ year ago] retiring BA senior Capt 744 managed to persuade a divorce judge that he was nearly bankrupt and owed the Inland Revenue £300,000. What happened to his cash handout and his pension? Is there an inhouse scheme for pilots to avoid paying the 'other half'?
Curiously......
Aviate 1138
" I suggest you take a look at the details squire. BA pilots get THE best pension deal."
Aviate 1138
Funny but a recently[ year ago] retiring BA senior Capt 744 managed to persuade a divorce judge that he was nearly bankrupt and owed the Inland Revenue £300,000. What happened to his cash handout and his pension? Is there an inhouse scheme for pilots to avoid paying the 'other half'?
Curiously......
Aviate 1138
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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As for being paid 'less than the going rate', I keep hearing that Company pilots are now benchmarked and in line with other EU airline pilots. Are you saying that this is not so ?
HOWEVER:
For that same money, in terms of flying hours BA pilots work about 15% harder than LH, AF and KLM. Therefore, to be truly benchmarked, we need either a 15% pay rise or a 15% cut in work. Given the choice, I would choose the latter.
In terms of any of us working harder, certainly on Longhaul (747,777) an increasing number of us are hitting the 900 hour legal limit. For example, I reached 830 hours at one stage last year just on my normal roster without any overtime (which I'm too knackered to do). It is normal for a month's roster to encompass five transatlantic trips (10 crossings). The really junior blokes can get six and sometimes won't achieve CAP (the minimum amount of work we have to do before our pay is docked).
I, for one, would be prepared to strike to sort the company out. The pilots are not the problem in BA and I refuse to subsidise inefficienies in other parts of the company with below inflation pay deals and increased pension contributions. It is well known within BA that if you give anything up in the 'bad' times, you will never ever get it back in the good times.
In answer to those who say that striking will finish BA off, I agree totally. However, if the inefficiencies within other departments (they know who they are) are not sorted out, we will go bust anyway. I hate to say this but I have nothing to lose.
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Some interesting replies to my initial post.
The situation that ALL BA staff need to take into account is that
1. BA is not going to go bust it sits on 40% of the slots at LHR, the UK premier destination. The low cost operators cannot get in there. Each Slot is worth about £6 m. It may contract out of Gatwick but it will not go bust....... Its making money NOW.Why is the share price going UP?
2. If all the staff say yes to this pension hike they will pay it FOREVER.
3. BA 's contribution can go down again yours NEVER WILL.
4.The pension age could rise to reduce the liabilities without the staff having to put up hard cash to fill the hole.
5. If the proposed deal went through you will receive a pay reduction of 2% in the first year and in real terms after inflation a reduction of 5%, then 4%reduction in the second, then 4%reduction in the third year.
6.The 3% reduction due the pension hike is every year for the rest of your time with BA or in other words you will need a pay rise every year of at least 3% to JUST STAND STILL. never mind inflation.
7. BA is stretched for front line staff Engineers, Pilots, and Cabin Crew. Remember we were chartering the Bournemouth 747's a few months ago to run the timetable. WHY because WE COULD NOT CREW our own aircraft, our own aircraft were PARKED UP.
We have too many administrators and middle managers but that is for Rod to sort out.
The Boat has the right number of rowers just too many coxes.
Think on that one folks.
The situation that ALL BA staff need to take into account is that
1. BA is not going to go bust it sits on 40% of the slots at LHR, the UK premier destination. The low cost operators cannot get in there. Each Slot is worth about £6 m. It may contract out of Gatwick but it will not go bust....... Its making money NOW.Why is the share price going UP?
2. If all the staff say yes to this pension hike they will pay it FOREVER.
3. BA 's contribution can go down again yours NEVER WILL.
4.The pension age could rise to reduce the liabilities without the staff having to put up hard cash to fill the hole.
5. If the proposed deal went through you will receive a pay reduction of 2% in the first year and in real terms after inflation a reduction of 5%, then 4%reduction in the second, then 4%reduction in the third year.
6.The 3% reduction due the pension hike is every year for the rest of your time with BA or in other words you will need a pay rise every year of at least 3% to JUST STAND STILL. never mind inflation.
7. BA is stretched for front line staff Engineers, Pilots, and Cabin Crew. Remember we were chartering the Bournemouth 747's a few months ago to run the timetable. WHY because WE COULD NOT CREW our own aircraft, our own aircraft were PARKED UP.
We have too many administrators and middle managers but that is for Rod to sort out.
The Boat has the right number of rowers just too many coxes.
Think on that one folks.
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WhoopWhoopWhoops:
"Ba is not going to go bust......"
cf PanAm is not going to go bust
Laker is not going to go bust
Swiss Air is not going to go bust
Air Europe is not going to go bust
BCal is not going to go bust
How many comparisons do you want?
Your prolfile has your location as "Out of the loop". Come on back in to the real world. These are really worrying times for all airlines.
"Ba is not going to go bust......"
cf PanAm is not going to go bust
Laker is not going to go bust
Swiss Air is not going to go bust
Air Europe is not going to go bust
BCal is not going to go bust
How many comparisons do you want?
Your prolfile has your location as "Out of the loop". Come on back in to the real world. These are really worrying times for all airlines.
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Aviate 1138
I would suggest that this outcome has far more to do with the quality of his lawyer, than any deficiencies in the quality of his pension.
Funny but a recently[ year ago] retiring BA senior Capt 744 managed to persuade a divorce judge that he was nearly bankrupt and owed the Inland Revenue £300,000. What happened to his cash handout and his pension?
Before everone wastes more time hanging s**t on BA pilots,why hasnt anyone thought of tackling one of the biggest festsring
sore in the companys side, the cabin crew.The highest paid in the world(long haul of course).Make a comparison between them and virgin and you will have a shock Rod,probably best to go and relax on cottesloe beach in perth.
sore in the companys side, the cabin crew.The highest paid in the world(long haul of course).Make a comparison between them and virgin and you will have a shock Rod,probably best to go and relax on cottesloe beach in perth.
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A friend of mine works for BA, in December he and his wife were treated to Christmas dinner and The Dorchester (yes, that Dorchester, the one on Park Lane), and he's just come back from 2 weeks at a conference in America (week in Las Vegas then a week in San Jose).
He's not a pilot, cabin staff, engineer or check-in staff. He's an accountant.
Hands up all of the flight crews/engineers/check-in staff who were invited along to at least the Christmas dinner?
He's not a pilot, cabin staff, engineer or check-in staff. He's an accountant.
Hands up all of the flight crews/engineers/check-in staff who were invited along to at least the Christmas dinner?
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Whoop x 3
Even if BA do not "go bust" as a result of a strike (and they may), such action makes it more likely that BA will close the final salary scheme. This could force all those near-sighted employees to transfer to a money purchase scheme. Check what effect this will have on your pension before you dig your hooves in, please.
Even if BA do not "go bust" as a result of a strike (and they may), such action makes it more likely that BA will close the final salary scheme. This could force all those near-sighted employees to transfer to a money purchase scheme. Check what effect this will have on your pension before you dig your hooves in, please.
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Would you be suggesting that with the imminent arrival of international accounting standards to UK companies, that accountants should be barred from going to conferences to be able to implement what is already a complex conversion for many companies, which could ultimately cost BA more in getting it wrong, and having to restate accounts and pay fines?
The Dorchester for Christmas lunch is however inexcusible, but then again, are those accounting and corporate reporting staff on contracts as good as flight crew enabling overtime payments, or ones like the rest of the accounting industry in the city, with long hours expected to complete jobs but no overtime payments available to compensate. Then this 'reward' could be seen in a different light.
The real source of waste is not the pilots' salaries nor many of the back-office staff who, for the majority, are hard-working. Poor working practices as displayed by the MT section who insist that returning to base after every trip is reasonable, that one bus cannot take both the cabin crew and the flight crew when going different places, that insists on excessive numbers of breaks is but one example of wastage. But is this just our perception or a true reflection of their working practices - don't think that outsourcing will be the answer as quality will fall through the floor, and schedules will be harder to maintain.
Perhaps rather than attacking every other group but your own (for there are more than pilots in this thread it would appear), look at your own area and consider what resources are really required and what you could really do without.
Attacking your fellow departments is all very well, but makes it far easier for them to be able to jusify swathing cuts - that may be inappropriately considered - to the wider group of employees. In the long run all groups are going to remain together in the company, so perhaps a look at the overall strategy might be more beneficial. Do you want a trolley dolly or a professional of high standards in your First product? Is your appraisal system strong enough to root out those who really should not be in their positions (guess the answer). Is the internal transfer pricing crap and designed to put you as a pilot group over the barrel in the case of BACX (absolutely yes).
As an appendix, debt structure is not particularly burdensome compared to some other companies - the credit lines arranged alone can cover uncertainties, and the Japanese banks with which BA have much debt are in many cases in a poor bargaining position compared to BA. Not an immediate worry considering the asset worth of the slots, which is, I believe, still off-balance sheet.
The Dorchester for Christmas lunch is however inexcusible, but then again, are those accounting and corporate reporting staff on contracts as good as flight crew enabling overtime payments, or ones like the rest of the accounting industry in the city, with long hours expected to complete jobs but no overtime payments available to compensate. Then this 'reward' could be seen in a different light.
The real source of waste is not the pilots' salaries nor many of the back-office staff who, for the majority, are hard-working. Poor working practices as displayed by the MT section who insist that returning to base after every trip is reasonable, that one bus cannot take both the cabin crew and the flight crew when going different places, that insists on excessive numbers of breaks is but one example of wastage. But is this just our perception or a true reflection of their working practices - don't think that outsourcing will be the answer as quality will fall through the floor, and schedules will be harder to maintain.
Perhaps rather than attacking every other group but your own (for there are more than pilots in this thread it would appear), look at your own area and consider what resources are really required and what you could really do without.
Attacking your fellow departments is all very well, but makes it far easier for them to be able to jusify swathing cuts - that may be inappropriately considered - to the wider group of employees. In the long run all groups are going to remain together in the company, so perhaps a look at the overall strategy might be more beneficial. Do you want a trolley dolly or a professional of high standards in your First product? Is your appraisal system strong enough to root out those who really should not be in their positions (guess the answer). Is the internal transfer pricing crap and designed to put you as a pilot group over the barrel in the case of BACX (absolutely yes).
As an appendix, debt structure is not particularly burdensome compared to some other companies - the credit lines arranged alone can cover uncertainties, and the Japanese banks with which BA have much debt are in many cases in a poor bargaining position compared to BA. Not an immediate worry considering the asset worth of the slots, which is, I believe, still off-balance sheet.
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Dear Parcel
A few points for clarification.
1. The BA final salary scheme is already closed to new employees.
The company recruitment blurb does not make that clear. The pension on offer to new employees is a standard money purchase like Easy Jet for example.
2. The company to change the current final salary schemes require the union and pension trustees to agree to a change. No strike is required, if we dont agree it cannot happen, its in the rules of the scheme.
3. The only option the company has is to close the scheme BUT thanks to the Maersk shipping case Mr.Blair changed the rules and BA would have to fork up £1 billion in cash to fully fund it before closing it. Thats the Law.
So suprize suprize, they only closed it to new employees which they can do within the law without finding the cash.
I never thought I would thank Labour but they saved our bacon there. If they had not made it law I am sure the existing final salary scheme for current empoyees would be closed by now.
For Info the only airlines that currently have final salary schemes for new employees are
a. BRITANNIA
b. AER LINGUS
Both have been under pressure to close.
I hope this answers your points.
A few points for clarification.
1. The BA final salary scheme is already closed to new employees.
The company recruitment blurb does not make that clear. The pension on offer to new employees is a standard money purchase like Easy Jet for example.
2. The company to change the current final salary schemes require the union and pension trustees to agree to a change. No strike is required, if we dont agree it cannot happen, its in the rules of the scheme.
3. The only option the company has is to close the scheme BUT thanks to the Maersk shipping case Mr.Blair changed the rules and BA would have to fork up £1 billion in cash to fully fund it before closing it. Thats the Law.
So suprize suprize, they only closed it to new employees which they can do within the law without finding the cash.
I never thought I would thank Labour but they saved our bacon there. If they had not made it law I am sure the existing final salary scheme for current empoyees would be closed by now.
For Info the only airlines that currently have final salary schemes for new employees are
a. BRITANNIA
b. AER LINGUS
Both have been under pressure to close.
I hope this answers your points.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 17th Mar 2004 at 16:00.
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FlyingDutchman
£2000 after tax/deductions = around £3500/month Gross.
Multiply x12 = around £42,000/yr.
Non?
And she's not fluent in Japanese. Just English, Rubbish and German.
Leander, Mrs. V doesn't read the forum, hopefully. So I can say that our low countries friend would be about right on the service front. She's a top girl, one of the best (hence why I'm with her), but the working practices of our CC colleagues need a serious overhaul.
£2000 after tax/deductions = around £3500/month Gross.
Multiply x12 = around £42,000/yr.
Non?
And she's not fluent in Japanese. Just English, Rubbish and German.
Leander, Mrs. V doesn't read the forum, hopefully. So I can say that our low countries friend would be about right on the service front. She's a top girl, one of the best (hence why I'm with her), but the working practices of our CC colleagues need a serious overhaul.