Ryanair pilots to fight O'Leary ban on unions
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Down3Greens and Rodquiman
As a fellow wannabe i hope i never share a cockpit or even a company with people like you. I think you have a very immature viewpoint of the airline industy and i think you need to grow up.
I know all about market forces and economics. But i think MOL is a real Pr@t. Initially I used to like him for his 'alternative' approach but eventually i saw through him. He's the type of guy who would sell his grandmother to make and extra £££. It's There was an article in one of the tabloids a few days ago where the reporter couldnt believe that ryanair staff have to pay for their own uniforms. It is true that the financial alarm bells are ringing at Ryanair. This is due to a flawed business model (I'm suprised they didn't blame Sept. 11 this time). The people who should take the punishment for this are MOL and this cronies at the top not the pilots and other hardworking members of staff. Aren't these the same pilots who have to taxi at 50kts
to the stand so that MOL can go ranting in the media about how his airline is always on time.
Unlike most wannabes i like to think about my long term future and not just the immediate. i want to be able to pay my kids university tuition fees, get unto the property ladder, pay off my existing debts and support myself after retirement cos state pensions aint no good. at the moment Ryanair is no.200 on my list of 200 airlines to work for and is about to replaced by air Kabul
they shouldn't be expecting £150 from this side in the near future.
Capt. manuvar requesting freq. change
As a fellow wannabe i hope i never share a cockpit or even a company with people like you. I think you have a very immature viewpoint of the airline industy and i think you need to grow up.
I know all about market forces and economics. But i think MOL is a real Pr@t. Initially I used to like him for his 'alternative' approach but eventually i saw through him. He's the type of guy who would sell his grandmother to make and extra £££. It's There was an article in one of the tabloids a few days ago where the reporter couldnt believe that ryanair staff have to pay for their own uniforms. It is true that the financial alarm bells are ringing at Ryanair. This is due to a flawed business model (I'm suprised they didn't blame Sept. 11 this time). The people who should take the punishment for this are MOL and this cronies at the top not the pilots and other hardworking members of staff. Aren't these the same pilots who have to taxi at 50kts
to the stand so that MOL can go ranting in the media about how his airline is always on time.Unlike most wannabes i like to think about my long term future and not just the immediate. i want to be able to pay my kids university tuition fees, get unto the property ladder, pay off my existing debts and support myself after retirement cos state pensions aint no good. at the moment Ryanair is no.200 on my list of 200 airlines to work for and is about to replaced by air Kabul
they shouldn't be expecting £150 from this side in the near future.
Capt. manuvar requesting freq. change
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Downthreegreens wrote;
erm try;
or
or
or
Implication being that we're;
a/ moaners
b/ overpaid
c/ lazy
d/ greedy
Downthreegreens then goes on to say;
So renegotiations are coming up, shares have taken a dive, an EU ruling has gone against Ryanair who now says fares will have to rise and LCC's are cutting there costs to stay competitive.
Now tell me if you don't have a united workforce where would you look at cutting costs????
Tis better to be proactive rather than reactive
Hence the need for a union
Oh dear Shuttleworth................. when have I once breated them for the standard of living they enjoy.
An interesting article to which I am going to give you whingers a different perspective and something to think about.
This is 2004 post 9/11 and whilst a lot of you reminisce about the good old days when flying was a gentlemans club, a great profession with two sector days and fat pay checks, people from my generation have been born into a totally different world and vastly different industry.
you guys want to have your cake and eat it.
remember this when you squabble over a few extra thousand on your already massive salary
a/ moaners
b/ overpaid
c/ lazy
d/ greedy
The T&Cs being referred to over and over again in such a negative manner (as if they are not good enough), include unrivalled sector pay, a high level of overall renumeration, fixed roster stabilty, inflationary rise, share options (that everybody loved in the good times).
It may be human nature to want to improve our lots and better our conditions, but is also corporate nature to shave pounds off the bottom line and to say NO in a pilot surplus market.
Now tell me if you don't have a united workforce where would you look at cutting costs????
Tis better to be proactive rather than reactive
Hence the need for a union
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I am a wannabe also but Down3greens ........ you are way out of line here. It is "yes men" like you that see any industry, not just the Airline industry into the grave. We pay incredibly to get our licenses and we deserve an appropriate set of benefits afterwards.
I wish I could wish you luck but I just can't bring myself to do so. You have already said you would cut my throat (or any wannabe's) just to get in before me.
I wish I could wish you luck but I just can't bring myself to do so. You have already said you would cut my throat (or any wannabe's) just to get in before me.
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BillHicksRules,
Some interesting points and don't think anyone could disagree with your main point regarding what an employee is worth.
However
There is a surplus of qualified pilots.
Hmm, yes there is a surplus of pilots who can be put into the RHS as co-pilots but I dispute there is a surplus of people for the LHS as my company is finding it very difficult to get people to sit there.
This surplus is only going to get worse as more airlines go to the wall
Have to dispute this too
I think the industry is through the worst of it. Yes there will be lay offs but it isn't just the LoCo's who will be expanding in the near future. Lot's of seats will need filled
The public is unlikely to have sympathy for pilots in a strike situation.
I always think this is a spurious arguement. A strike is between the company and the pilots. Anyway who is talking about a strike?
None of you pilots were forced into the industry. You all chose it with eyes open
Your point is? That we lay over with a jar of vaseline?
Change is a fact of life in industry. You either adapt to it or you get out. Simple choice.
Totally agree with you. Look how the industry is changing. Most of us work our maximum of 900 hours a year.
You get more than ample salaries at the moment.
You let your guard down here
Now we see where you're coming from 
But I'll ask the question, ample to what? A salesman like yourself? A mate who was a salesman has retired at 32. I don't begrudge him his worth, fair play to him
Not many of you have nothing to fall back on in terms of education.
Can't speak for anyone else but I have a BSc (Hons). Could do an MSc if I needed to.
According to the financial press Ryanair could run passengerless for 3 years before it was in trouble. That assumes it is still flying so imagine how long it can go if it is not flying. How many Ryanair pilots could go 3 years with no sector pay?
I assume you're talking about industrial action here which no one else has talked about but let's just suppose it did happen.... Perhaps it could run for a few years but would institutions and shareholders etc want that? Share price plummet, money wasted etc
What is to stop MOL simply shutting Ryanair down, taking his money and retiring. Leaving even more unemployed pilots?
There is everything to stop MOL shutting Ryanair down. Shareholders for a start. However I'm surprised MOL hasn't walked with his money as I certainly would
Why not try looking for a win-win option to present MOL rather than digging heels in this early? MOL maybe an arrogant SOB but he is a successful businessman and prefers opportunities to confrontation.
Totally agree with you, which is why I can't understand MOL's attitude towards a union Pilot's also prefer opportunities to confrontation and a union is a unifying voice with a bit of clout to make themselves heard. Then things might be a bit more even and a win-win situtation develops. Afterall pilots don't want to be out of a job but neither do they want to be shafted.
Some interesting points and don't think anyone could disagree with your main point regarding what an employee is worth.
However
There is a surplus of qualified pilots.
Hmm, yes there is a surplus of pilots who can be put into the RHS as co-pilots but I dispute there is a surplus of people for the LHS as my company is finding it very difficult to get people to sit there.
This surplus is only going to get worse as more airlines go to the wall
Have to dispute this too
I think the industry is through the worst of it. Yes there will be lay offs but it isn't just the LoCo's who will be expanding in the near future. Lot's of seats will need filled The public is unlikely to have sympathy for pilots in a strike situation.
I always think this is a spurious arguement. A strike is between the company and the pilots. Anyway who is talking about a strike?
None of you pilots were forced into the industry. You all chose it with eyes open
Your point is?
That we lay over with a jar of vaseline?Change is a fact of life in industry. You either adapt to it or you get out. Simple choice.
Totally agree with you. Look how the industry is changing. Most of us work our maximum of 900 hours a year.
You get more than ample salaries at the moment.
You let your guard down here
Now we see where you're coming from But I'll ask the question, ample to what? A salesman like yourself? A mate who was a salesman has retired at 32. I don't begrudge him his worth, fair play to him
Not many of you have nothing to fall back on in terms of education.
Can't speak for anyone else but I have a BSc (Hons). Could do an MSc if I needed to.
According to the financial press Ryanair could run passengerless for 3 years before it was in trouble. That assumes it is still flying so imagine how long it can go if it is not flying. How many Ryanair pilots could go 3 years with no sector pay?
I assume you're talking about industrial action here which no one else has talked about but let's just suppose it did happen.... Perhaps it could run for a few years but would institutions and shareholders etc want that? Share price plummet, money wasted etc
What is to stop MOL simply shutting Ryanair down, taking his money and retiring. Leaving even more unemployed pilots?
There is everything to stop MOL shutting Ryanair down. Shareholders for a start. However I'm surprised MOL hasn't walked with his money as I certainly would
Why not try looking for a win-win option to present MOL rather than digging heels in this early? MOL maybe an arrogant SOB but he is a successful businessman and prefers opportunities to confrontation.
Totally agree with you, which is why I can't understand MOL's attitude towards a union
Pilot's also prefer opportunities to confrontation and a union is a unifying voice with a bit of clout to make themselves heard. Then things might be a bit more even and a win-win situtation develops. Afterall pilots don't want to be out of a job but neither do they want to be shafted.
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A while ago BALPA negotiated a pay deal that did not go down well with a large number of my colleagues and yet the general concensus of opinion is that union membership is worthwhile as a backup insurance policy. A number of pilots have managed to find themselves in sticky situations that the media have taken an interest in in recent years, some got themselves into the schtick, and others found themselves unwittingly in the middle of their worst nightmare. Union members had immediate access to an advisor and representitive who was knowledgable about the airline industry.
Unions provide much more than just payrises. A boss who refuses to allow them in his company knows he can shaft his employees as much as he wants, and get away with it. MOL is taking advantage of this situation right now in Ryanair.
D3G. You idiot. How old are you? One day you will look back at the way you threw yourself at a mad boss and said you would be happy to be treated like a work experience boy and wonder what you were doing. All I can say is give up all hope of ever owning a house and having a family because with the attitude you have at the moment you will never be able to afford it. If you work for next to nothing now you with just be another plonker paving the way to a situation where all pilots work for free and just for the love of it. And frankly, that's just not professional.
Unions provide much more than just payrises. A boss who refuses to allow them in his company knows he can shaft his employees as much as he wants, and get away with it. MOL is taking advantage of this situation right now in Ryanair.
D3G. You idiot. How old are you? One day you will look back at the way you threw yourself at a mad boss and said you would be happy to be treated like a work experience boy and wonder what you were doing. All I can say is give up all hope of ever owning a house and having a family because with the attitude you have at the moment you will never be able to afford it. If you work for next to nothing now you with just be another plonker paving the way to a situation where all pilots work for free and just for the love of it. And frankly, that's just not professional.
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Down3Greens,
I wish you luck, 'cos you'll need it when you find yourself diverting because of marginal conditions, and MOL calls you in to give you a bollicking: "How come four others made it in, and you didn't?".
Maybe unions are not just for pushing up salaries. They might protect you from being fired for making the right decision for your pax. and a/c safety.
I wish you luck, 'cos you'll need it when you find yourself diverting because of marginal conditions, and MOL calls you in to give you a bollicking: "How come four others made it in, and you didn't?".
Maybe unions are not just for pushing up salaries. They might protect you from being fired for making the right decision for your pax. and a/c safety.
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D3G, I wholly assure you that you honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
What is more likely, after many years in this business, is the wholesome knowledge that it is idealists like you who will be at the forefront of BALPA in the future. Once you've had all that trust abused one too many times you WILL crack and see the roses, I can absolutely guarantee, and when you do the strength of your convictions now, allied to the ruefullness you will feel when you finally realise how naive you have been, will drive you to be a full and wholehearted player in the pilots union.
In the meantime, those of us who have spent a decade or more flying can only shake our heads at your views and think knowingly.......time will tell. It always does. Best of luck with your career meanwhile.
What is more likely, after many years in this business, is the wholesome knowledge that it is idealists like you who will be at the forefront of BALPA in the future. Once you've had all that trust abused one too many times you WILL crack and see the roses, I can absolutely guarantee, and when you do the strength of your convictions now, allied to the ruefullness you will feel when you finally realise how naive you have been, will drive you to be a full and wholehearted player in the pilots union.
In the meantime, those of us who have spent a decade or more flying can only shake our heads at your views and think knowingly.......time will tell. It always does. Best of luck with your career meanwhile.
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just wanted to pick up on something mentioned by D3G.
'whinging and slagging off their employer because they can't get more'
It's not realy a case of getting more, it's a case of avoiding getting less. Avoiding getting longer rosters, that start earlier and end later, it's avoiding each batch of new recruits getting progressively worse 't&c'. It's about being able to have a voice in the company that will be listened to without the threat of management being heavy handed.
I think MOL has got lots of things right, but at the same time he has got somethings wrong. There has to be a balance between profit and fair treatment of employees.
'whinging and slagging off their employer because they can't get more'
It's not realy a case of getting more, it's a case of avoiding getting less. Avoiding getting longer rosters, that start earlier and end later, it's avoiding each batch of new recruits getting progressively worse 't&c'. It's about being able to have a voice in the company that will be listened to without the threat of management being heavy handed.
I think MOL has got lots of things right, but at the same time he has got somethings wrong. There has to be a balance between profit and fair treatment of employees.
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<Winds neck out>
Will this impending episode coupled with the recent court ruling finally show the travelling public that air travel is an undeniably expensive commodity?
It seems to be proving that Ryanair's business model is in fact not "revolutionary", more's the case it is reliant on a series of temporary arrangements to which will eventually be called a halt.
I would imagine that if BA we allowed to charge crew for their own uniforms, then deny them the right to industrial representation, fly to out-of-the-way airports and receive backhanders for doing so, they too would be able to charge the consumer ridiculously low fares (and turn a massive profit in the bargain). if this is the case, then BA and Ryanair are identical in terms of business model (apart from BA providing better service).
Force Ryanair to pay back the backhanders, introduce unions, fly to major airports and they'll be the same as BA.
Personally, that leads me to invest in BA rather than Ryanair.
<Winds neck in.>
Will this impending episode coupled with the recent court ruling finally show the travelling public that air travel is an undeniably expensive commodity?
It seems to be proving that Ryanair's business model is in fact not "revolutionary", more's the case it is reliant on a series of temporary arrangements to which will eventually be called a halt.
I would imagine that if BA we allowed to charge crew for their own uniforms, then deny them the right to industrial representation, fly to out-of-the-way airports and receive backhanders for doing so, they too would be able to charge the consumer ridiculously low fares (and turn a massive profit in the bargain). if this is the case, then BA and Ryanair are identical in terms of business model (apart from BA providing better service).
Force Ryanair to pay back the backhanders, introduce unions, fly to major airports and they'll be the same as BA.
Personally, that leads me to invest in BA rather than Ryanair.
<Winds neck in.>
A whimsical aside -
Doesn't this thread show that the Ryanair model is flawed, as is 'pure' BA?
The guys that have got it right are easyJet. They keep costs to a minimum but recognise that they have to retain customer loyalty. They fly to and from major airports. They have avoided the PR elephant traps that Ryanair seem to keep finding. They are profitable, growing, and seem to be professionally managed.
Don't know about their T&Cs and I gather they are having some difficulties recruiting and retaining. But if that's their only problem, it's solvable.
On the other hand, BA is still over-staffed and contains many practices that reflect its state-owned, unionised past. Its fares are generally too high and it isn't profitable on short-haul.
Ryanair seem intent on shafting everyone, and sooner or later that approach backfires. I'm no fan of trades unions, and in Ryanair the motor for a change in attitude will be the financial crunch that's on its way and not any union....
Doesn't this thread show that the Ryanair model is flawed, as is 'pure' BA?
The guys that have got it right are easyJet. They keep costs to a minimum but recognise that they have to retain customer loyalty. They fly to and from major airports. They have avoided the PR elephant traps that Ryanair seem to keep finding. They are profitable, growing, and seem to be professionally managed.
Don't know about their T&Cs and I gather they are having some difficulties recruiting and retaining. But if that's their only problem, it's solvable.
On the other hand, BA is still over-staffed and contains many practices that reflect its state-owned, unionised past. Its fares are generally too high and it isn't profitable on short-haul.
Ryanair seem intent on shafting everyone, and sooner or later that approach backfires. I'm no fan of trades unions, and in Ryanair the motor for a change in attitude will be the financial crunch that's on its way and not any union....
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All carriers are becoming locost carriers, at least that is the message that most airlines are trying to get across in their advertising. BA, bmi, bmi baby, Flybe, Easyjet are ALL trying to get the same message across, that somehow if you fly with them you can get cheap fares. But advertising is all it is, the reality with all the airlines is VERY different. But, joe public has heard that locost is good, so many times, that they are starting to believe it, even though the opposite is probably nearer to the truth. Companies like bmi and BA are running at a loss and will continue to do so for as long as the shareholders / owners allow it to continue. In the long term they have to change to survive, this is as inevitable as the Titanic sinking. Anyone care to speculate as to which of the mainstream airlines will be around in 5 years time? I would not like to call that one !
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From what I hear from friends working with Ryanair a union will be very much necessary. The advertised promisses like share options, fixed days off, great pay etc...all a bit like big mouthed words.
No captain nor any type rated first officer can join Ryanair, all have to accept an agency contract. These contracts are subject to "take-it-or leave" Ryanair changes.
There is no minimum guaranteed....think about the guys and girls who just fly 1 or 2 days at present. And...ask them if anyone can remember when the salary was last paid on time...
No captain nor any type rated first officer can join Ryanair, all have to accept an agency contract. These contracts are subject to "take-it-or leave" Ryanair changes.
There is no minimum guaranteed....think about the guys and girls who just fly 1 or 2 days at present. And...ask them if anyone can remember when the salary was last paid on time...
