British Airways Citiexpress
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I agree. I wasnt aware PH had been chosen for anything other than CP technical.
No Judge 11, I have not written in the Balpa forums I wrote straight to TDLF with a strong but considered argument. I put forward my many concerns and some of my own suggestions regarding the company direction. He listened and then gave me his thoughts.
I did not agree with his answer.
I will now be voting with my feet.
I am no manager. ( grow up or are you a Balpa rep )
No Judge 11, I have not written in the Balpa forums I wrote straight to TDLF with a strong but considered argument. I put forward my many concerns and some of my own suggestions regarding the company direction. He listened and then gave me his thoughts.
I did not agree with his answer.
I will now be voting with my feet.
I am no manager. ( grow up or are you a Balpa rep )
Last one out, turn out the lights!
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The last posting says it all. What's the point of all the whingeing when there seems to be real long term viability problem with the whole business.
Let's face it, the regional airline industry has always been very fragile and no more than now. Can't think of many airlines making any money (eg FlyBE only seem to survive by selling aircraft and slots!), and the level of competition is increasing all the time. So why all this moaning? Isn't there just the possibility that the guys running the business are having a hell of a time keeping up with competition and fighting to keep costs as low as possible whilst improving productivity. It's not a static business and anyone that believed that it would be is very naive!
No, I'm not in management, but surely the future lies in understanding what's going on, rather than all this personal sniping at individuals. Even BA aren't making the type of returns that you'd even get at a Building Society....it's vicious out there and management surely have the responsibility to change and adapt as much as possible. Unfortunately changes can be painful, but standing still is a recipe for disaster!
Let's face it, the regional airline industry has always been very fragile and no more than now. Can't think of many airlines making any money (eg FlyBE only seem to survive by selling aircraft and slots!), and the level of competition is increasing all the time. So why all this moaning? Isn't there just the possibility that the guys running the business are having a hell of a time keeping up with competition and fighting to keep costs as low as possible whilst improving productivity. It's not a static business and anyone that believed that it would be is very naive!
No, I'm not in management, but surely the future lies in understanding what's going on, rather than all this personal sniping at individuals. Even BA aren't making the type of returns that you'd even get at a Building Society....it's vicious out there and management surely have the responsibility to change and adapt as much as possible. Unfortunately changes can be painful, but standing still is a recipe for disaster!
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Depends on your point of view, and no, I'm neither management nor BALPA.
However, this is the point reached because of over two years of BA management interference. YYes, the Industry problems are not all BA's. However, as a pilot workforce, we are treated like industrial equipment. There is none of the consultation that the management signed up to - AND WHICH THEY USE WITH MAINLINE!! We deserve at the least the same straightforward dealing they offer to their other employees - if not, well, I would like to know why not. The trouble is the "leadership". It is autocratic, unyieleding, untruthful, and self-serving. There is no declared objective for our airline other than what we have seen over the two years, ie shrinkage and closure. So, if that is on the agenda anyway, we may as well insist on a bigger voice in it. Perhaps if we were to be treated as what we are, a highly skilled professional group with a deserved - AND AGREED - voice in the future of our Company, we would not be here now. Bear in mind as well that if it all goes wrong, our management are not in this with us. They are already slinking off back to better grazing in mainline, and this is very hypocritical. Imposing cuts on us while they take payrises - how much more are we supposed to take or believe. No, this YES vote is important. The ballot itself, never mind any result, has already caused some u turns in terminology, ie payrises and aircraft basing. The question is whether we wbelieve the latest batch of promises delivered quite clearly because of the ballot. The ballot was called by the BACX CC. ie, the BACX CC have turned TDLF's terminology around. Now, ddo we let the CC, already proved right, the chance to prove the rest of their views, or do we offer TDLF and cronies the chance to go back on their word yet again (what a form sheet). Remember, if we don't back BALPA we will probably lose their expertise as they resign en-masse. Thus we start again with a new BALPA. Would we have any Company lleft by the time they get the experience?
This is not just one man's leadership, the CC are united on it. If they were wrong strategically or tactically, the main union leadership would not be backing them. Compare that with TDLF etc, who change their tune every time a new text arrives from Rod's office.
Jordan, if you cannot understand what is going on with this Company, then I have difficulty beleiving you are not in a fat management job. Possibly on a 145 at Manchester. I wonder what you think is going to happen to YOUR job when the 145 leases start to expire and all the very senior displaced guys are given telephone calls and maybe YOUR CURRENT JOB. Because that's how this bunch operate. Individual deals done with implicitly threatening phone calls about self induced redundancy.
I support our CC. I believe in supporting a majority view, and I believe that is what we shall see come the 20th. Maybe, just maybe, we can start talking to management as grown-ups instead of naughty kids.
However, this is the point reached because of over two years of BA management interference. YYes, the Industry problems are not all BA's. However, as a pilot workforce, we are treated like industrial equipment. There is none of the consultation that the management signed up to - AND WHICH THEY USE WITH MAINLINE!! We deserve at the least the same straightforward dealing they offer to their other employees - if not, well, I would like to know why not. The trouble is the "leadership". It is autocratic, unyieleding, untruthful, and self-serving. There is no declared objective for our airline other than what we have seen over the two years, ie shrinkage and closure. So, if that is on the agenda anyway, we may as well insist on a bigger voice in it. Perhaps if we were to be treated as what we are, a highly skilled professional group with a deserved - AND AGREED - voice in the future of our Company, we would not be here now. Bear in mind as well that if it all goes wrong, our management are not in this with us. They are already slinking off back to better grazing in mainline, and this is very hypocritical. Imposing cuts on us while they take payrises - how much more are we supposed to take or believe. No, this YES vote is important. The ballot itself, never mind any result, has already caused some u turns in terminology, ie payrises and aircraft basing. The question is whether we wbelieve the latest batch of promises delivered quite clearly because of the ballot. The ballot was called by the BACX CC. ie, the BACX CC have turned TDLF's terminology around. Now, ddo we let the CC, already proved right, the chance to prove the rest of their views, or do we offer TDLF and cronies the chance to go back on their word yet again (what a form sheet). Remember, if we don't back BALPA we will probably lose their expertise as they resign en-masse. Thus we start again with a new BALPA. Would we have any Company lleft by the time they get the experience?
This is not just one man's leadership, the CC are united on it. If they were wrong strategically or tactically, the main union leadership would not be backing them. Compare that with TDLF etc, who change their tune every time a new text arrives from Rod's office.
Jordan, if you cannot understand what is going on with this Company, then I have difficulty beleiving you are not in a fat management job. Possibly on a 145 at Manchester. I wonder what you think is going to happen to YOUR job when the 145 leases start to expire and all the very senior displaced guys are given telephone calls and maybe YOUR CURRENT JOB. Because that's how this bunch operate. Individual deals done with implicitly threatening phone calls about self induced redundancy.
I support our CC. I believe in supporting a majority view, and I believe that is what we shall see come the 20th. Maybe, just maybe, we can start talking to management as grown-ups instead of naughty kids.
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I guess the majority of correspondents here, think this is all a 'storm in a teacup', which I'm sure it is!
Fact of the matter being, if a CC shouts "wolf" often enough, (which this one most certainly has!) Sooner or later, people ignore it!
Not management, not balpa, not BACX! But not unfamiliar with the scenario!
Take care you guys, and think very carefully how you think your best interests are advanced!
Fact of the matter being, if a CC shouts "wolf" often enough, (which this one most certainly has!) Sooner or later, people ignore it!
Not management, not balpa, not BACX! But not unfamiliar with the scenario!
Take care you guys, and think very carefully how you think your best interests are advanced!
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Tandemrotor
I and many of my colleagues are somewhat sickened by your apathetic "I'm alright I'm a mainline chappie" response.
In the main BACX pilots accept our presence (despite our vastly superior terms and conditions, pay, pensions, regional allowances and futures), and accept our reasons for being here, and most of them, like us, are decent people seeking to earn a decent living working from the regions.
What I (and therefore obviously BACX pilots) cannot accept is (on this and BA PPRuNe (that they are not privy to - I am glad you have finally worked out there are three Chief Pilots)) your lies.
Get real, put yourself in their position, and you might actually realise they are behaving in a totally necessary manner. Like what our brethren did for us many moons ago (perhaps you are too young to remember?). May they prosper in their demands.
I and many of my colleagues are somewhat sickened by your apathetic "I'm alright I'm a mainline chappie" response.
In the main BACX pilots accept our presence (despite our vastly superior terms and conditions, pay, pensions, regional allowances and futures), and accept our reasons for being here, and most of them, like us, are decent people seeking to earn a decent living working from the regions.
What I (and therefore obviously BACX pilots) cannot accept is (on this and BA PPRuNe (that they are not privy to - I am glad you have finally worked out there are three Chief Pilots)) your lies.
Get real, put yourself in their position, and you might actually realise they are behaving in a totally necessary manner. Like what our brethren did for us many moons ago (perhaps you are too young to remember?). May they prosper in their demands.
Last edited by wacky; 15th Feb 2004 at 06:13.
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wacky
Well, I have not recently been called 'too young to remember' anything (other than perhaps Dunkirk!)
Perhaps you would like to educate me!
What EXACTLY are my 'lies'? Do tell.
Perhaps before answering, you may wish to review my post on page 2 (or are you a latecomer?)
If you think your best interests are served by the actions of the rather hysterical CC, ("may they prosper in their demands") Good luck to you, time will tell.
I'm not sure anyone's are!
Who exactly would many of your colleagues be??
If you would care to e-mail me, we could of course discuss the personal nature of your post!!
No? I guessed not!
Oh, I've just noticed, it's your first post!
Nice touch! Why not use your regular pprune name?
Maybe you're not what you imply you are after all wacky!
Well, I have not recently been called 'too young to remember' anything (other than perhaps Dunkirk!)
Perhaps you would like to educate me!
What EXACTLY are my 'lies'? Do tell.
Perhaps before answering, you may wish to review my post on page 2 (or are you a latecomer?)
If you think your best interests are served by the actions of the rather hysterical CC, ("may they prosper in their demands") Good luck to you, time will tell.
I'm not sure anyone's are!
Who exactly would many of your colleagues be??
If you would care to e-mail me, we could of course discuss the personal nature of your post!!
No? I guessed not!
Oh, I've just noticed, it's your first post!
Nice touch! Why not use your regular pprune name?
Maybe you're not what you imply you are after all wacky!
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 16th Feb 2004 at 19:51.
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All comments should be read and thought about; no reason that Tandem Rotor should not chuck in his three pennorth worth, even if it is from his cosy contractual 'no redundancy' situation, and his last year's pay rise achieved by Rob Hall and the mainline CC 'negotiating' a huge increase in Ts and Cs for all BA. Anyone remember the emotive language used by BA pilots on prune then to justify their demands, about how small a part in overall airline costs the flt deck were, and how they had been overlooked for years, had been squeezed by management for years, etc etc etc.
Funny how similar the threads are, might even be worth going back and cutting and pasting a few comments. There were evn people saying that BA pilots should be grateful for their (then) current lot, and should not rock the boat our it would bring the Company down. Well, Rob triumphed in his 'negotiations', but mainly because the Company knew that the pilots had had enough of being jerked around with promises while having to work harder and harder whilst watching management expansion and business plans (Ayling's) which had proved to be costly disasters.
WE ARE NO BLOODY DIFFERENT, JUST SMALLER!!!!
We are owned and managed, in the real world, by exactly the same bunch of no-hopers who had to buckle to mainline demands last year. The difference is the hypocritical attitude of the likes of TR, who in common with a small minority of mainliners, cannot bring himself to admit we are all part of the same corporate entity, and therefore deserving of, if not the same pay packet, at least the same attention, respect and working conditions as themselves.
You know, I think I shall search for that thread..
In the meantime, not de la Fosse. He has the cheek to say in his latest emergency communication to our pilots that there is a personalised agenda by our BALPA guys. Of course, he doesn't have one does he? His annual bonus won't be affected by the succes or not of the swingeing cuts he is trying to achieve?
Tosser!
TDLF =
Funny how similar the threads are, might even be worth going back and cutting and pasting a few comments. There were evn people saying that BA pilots should be grateful for their (then) current lot, and should not rock the boat our it would bring the Company down. Well, Rob triumphed in his 'negotiations', but mainly because the Company knew that the pilots had had enough of being jerked around with promises while having to work harder and harder whilst watching management expansion and business plans (Ayling's) which had proved to be costly disasters.
WE ARE NO BLOODY DIFFERENT, JUST SMALLER!!!!
We are owned and managed, in the real world, by exactly the same bunch of no-hopers who had to buckle to mainline demands last year. The difference is the hypocritical attitude of the likes of TR, who in common with a small minority of mainliners, cannot bring himself to admit we are all part of the same corporate entity, and therefore deserving of, if not the same pay packet, at least the same attention, respect and working conditions as themselves.
You know, I think I shall search for that thread..
In the meantime, not de la Fosse. He has the cheek to say in his latest emergency communication to our pilots that there is a personalised agenda by our BALPA guys. Of course, he doesn't have one does he? His annual bonus won't be affected by the succes or not of the swingeing cuts he is trying to achieve?
Tosser!
TDLF =
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Children children. Let's not bicker.
1. 99% of all posts on here are in support of BACX pilots.
2. Even those who don't support us are entitled to their views, and in fact often provide an opportunity to make some factual statements contradicting the Company's propaganda.
3. Only people who actually work for BACX can genuinely be aware of the staggering incompetence of our management, the waste, the refusal to listen or even learn from mistakes - in fact the refusal to admit there ARE any mistakes other than supporting BALPA!!
4. Only pilots who work for BACX can really know and understand the depths of the utter contempt that TDLF and his cronies are held in. The sheer hypocrisy of the nestfeathering going on among management and the lining up behind decisions they know are crass and crap has to be seen to be believed.
The only thing more united than the management on their anti-BALPA line and nigh on libel/slander reference our CC Chair is that of the YES vote.
Roll on the 20th.
1. 99% of all posts on here are in support of BACX pilots.
2. Even those who don't support us are entitled to their views, and in fact often provide an opportunity to make some factual statements contradicting the Company's propaganda.
3. Only people who actually work for BACX can genuinely be aware of the staggering incompetence of our management, the waste, the refusal to listen or even learn from mistakes - in fact the refusal to admit there ARE any mistakes other than supporting BALPA!!
4. Only pilots who work for BACX can really know and understand the depths of the utter contempt that TDLF and his cronies are held in. The sheer hypocrisy of the nestfeathering going on among management and the lining up behind decisions they know are crass and crap has to be seen to be believed.
The only thing more united than the management on their anti-BALPA line and nigh on libel/slander reference our CC Chair is that of the YES vote.
Roll on the 20th.
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Good luck 2 all u BACX pilots and ur fight against management, im a flight dispatcher at leeds and i think it has been a downward sprial for many of you when they pulled out from leeds and many other stations. I know that some of the cadets were wisked off back to the mainline to fly the jets, some left for the likes of easyjet and rest of you went to fly DASH and such like.
Ive attend a couple of flight trainning shows at heathrow and that John Monks BA recruitment Manager said that 140 and 150 mainline pilots to retire in 2004 and 2005 respectively. Now thats assuming that they dnt up the retirement age from 55 to 60 which they probable will do so they can save money on recruiting new pilots and having to type rate people.
r u lot not going to be first in line for these vacancies? excuse my ignorance if that is what you are fighting for already!!
Im sure strike action would only hinder this process??!!
But fighting BACX seems a little pointless because BACX seems like its just a liability to BA thats why no one cares, it does not make it right for them to treat you all like **** thou!!
I dnt wish to affend anyone, i dnt no all the ins and out of your situtations so correct me on any of the above if im wrong.
Good luck cos it always takes alot of gutts to stand up to management!!!
Ive attend a couple of flight trainning shows at heathrow and that John Monks BA recruitment Manager said that 140 and 150 mainline pilots to retire in 2004 and 2005 respectively. Now thats assuming that they dnt up the retirement age from 55 to 60 which they probable will do so they can save money on recruiting new pilots and having to type rate people.
r u lot not going to be first in line for these vacancies? excuse my ignorance if that is what you are fighting for already!!
Im sure strike action would only hinder this process??!!
But fighting BACX seems a little pointless because BACX seems like its just a liability to BA thats why no one cares, it does not make it right for them to treat you all like **** thou!!
I dnt wish to affend anyone, i dnt no all the ins and out of your situtations so correct me on any of the above if im wrong.
Good luck cos it always takes alot of gutts to stand up to management!!!
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We're not looking for much in the way of favouritism, but to be told that the only advantage that we would gain over outside applicants would be that our CV's would be looked at first is just insulting. 3.4million flying hours, is what was recently calculated as the hours that exBRAL, Brymon and now BACX aircraft have been seen to the public as being "BA" operated. Before people start talking about BMed and the like, they are still just franchises, so wouldn't expect anything, as we didn't as BRAL etc., but we are now wholly owned and therefore the has to be some responsibility from the parent 
not qualified to make a judgement between mainline and BACX, but having worked for Brymon European (remember), franchised to BA, my how we felt, flying around pretending to be BA in our museum piece twinjet fuel/noise converters. How the pax used to love us! (not). How they voted with their feet and went in their droves to EZY and the low costs. Where did it all go wrong? How could they not see that BA was the best?
Guys, the customer is always right!
don't take your eyes off the ball, you might not like your management, but don't drive your customers away. They rely on you, but you depend on them!
Guys, the customer is always right!
don't take your eyes off the ball, you might not like your management, but don't drive your customers away. They rely on you, but you depend on them!
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Cornflake, not everyone benefitted from Rob Halls, and BALPA's "achieverments". Some of us actually saw a large decrease in our terms and conditions along with a drop in years served and so a pension cut. So don't believe everything BALPA or Managment tell you, the truth may not be quite so green on the other side of the fence. Good luck on the 20th you all deserve a straight deal.
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If I could second Blackballs ī comments. Do your own thinking. Remember BALPA or the relevant reps may not be acting in YOUR best interests. We do have this naive belief that a fellow pilot wont "shaft " us in order to further his/her own interests. As many mainline pilots will tell you, this isnīt always the case....
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So not too difficult to decide who to trust when choosing between our management
(God, I hate that word, it gives them ten times more stature than they deserve)
and our BALPA CC.
(God, I hate that word, it gives them ten times more stature than they deserve)
and our BALPA CC.
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oh please can somebody help me please 
All my friends from BA seem to be leaving the company - first it was cuddly Alistair 
(I think he said he's gone to drive a bus?), now dear Guy has gone to a big jumbo (I do love Guy though people are saying that his BA friends don't like him anymore because as a trainer he's now jumped the queue and taken their place). And now I've heard that Uncle Timmie has been seen at Waterside applying for a management position at Heathrow? It will be so sad without them all 
, my friend Carl said it was because they can't stand the heat, I love hot holidays so I can't see what all the fuss is about? And Paul is going to be very lonely left all by himself...
love and kisses
J
All my friends from BA seem to be leaving the company - first it was cuddly Alistair (I think he said he's gone to drive a bus?), now dear Guy has gone to a big jumbo (I do love Guy though people are saying that his BA friends don't like him anymore because as a trainer he's now jumped the queue and taken their place). And now I've heard that Uncle Timmie has been seen at Waterside applying for a management position at Heathrow? It will be so sad without them all , my friend Carl said it was because they can't stand the heat, I love hot holidays so I can't see what all the fuss is about? And Paul is going to be very lonely left all by himself...love and kisses
J
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I could not comment about the rest of your post, Essex Girl but I too have heard the same rumour about our illustrious (?) leader. He was seen at an interview for a new position just the other week, so maybe he is leaving us soon? Assuming he passes the interview.
but I too have heard the same rumour about our illustrious (?) leader. He was seen at an interview for a new position just the other week, so maybe he is leaving us soon? Assuming he passes the interview.