Peruvian fighter downs missionaries
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Yeah, this 'top gun' sure was is a real ace of the base - he shot-up the light aircraft, forcing it to ditch, during which process he killed a mother and her baby (i.e. not sure if it was the bullets, or the ditching, that killed them - not that it matters, the end result was the same). But not satisfied with downing their aircraft, he then straffed them in the sea.
Yep a real hero, NOT !
Yep a real hero, NOT !
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Jepp, if you do the same thing that the drug smugglers do, in the same area known for them to do it, then the risks is all yours.By the way, no one is so sure that they are not carrying anything illegal under the disguise of flying an innocent light plane in someone else territory. Try flying your seneca 111 towards Florida at low level at night and see what happens ! Condolence to the families of those who lost their lives.
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Rolling Thunder,
I've operated in the Iquitos area and I can tell you there are very real problems with drug smuggling airplanes. All smuggling pilots understand they will be shot at if they attempt to evade capture/seizure. So far this year, 20 or so light airplanes have been "tagged".
The DEA (flying out of Iquitos) has some fairly sophisticated equipment flying around the area. They provide surveillance support to the Peruvian AF.
Sadly, I think this was a friendly fire type misidentification.
dd
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According to my newspaper the unfortunate Cessna was fingered by a US AWACS/Orion/whatever type.
The sad irony of the South American drug wars is that both sides are funded by the USA. The US Government funds the enforcement agencies, and the US populace funds the drug industry. The poor sods who live in the wrong place are caught in the crossfire.
The sad irony of the South American drug wars is that both sides are funded by the USA. The US Government funds the enforcement agencies, and the US populace funds the drug industry. The poor sods who live in the wrong place are caught in the crossfire.
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This is a stupid policy shooting, at an unarmed Cessna 185 or 206 that was full of people with a Missionary Insignia on the side isnt it?
It is true that the tracking Aircraft had sofisticated equipment etc. But all you needed to do was look up the A/C rego on the net and ring the owner, or havent they got internet access yet?
And I have a sneeking suspicion that a flight plan was filed, but was mysteriously or conveniently lost.I bet this comes out after further investigation.
Kurmy I supose you are a PILOT , but have you flown a light aircraft to COSTA RICA from the U.S for vacation? If you havent, well alot of U.S. CITIZENS do, and some times they fly further a field. I think this shoot before asking later policy must stop NOW!!!!
And what about following the A/C to its destination( not far, considering it was a float plane) and using helicopters to land and investigate. This is how its done in the
U.S. Thank God AOPA sang out, when the US Government were going for this policy a while back.
Last point, rules of engagement, and rules for interception shouldnt be tucked away in some corner of the FARs should they!
Many people in the U.S believe this is a physical war over drugs. Well its not,its a mess of corruption thats starts a Capital Hill and ends in South America. You cant tell me the most Powerfull Nation in the Earth cant stop this.
My condolences to the Family. This is a sad day.
[This message has been edited by Sheep Guts (edited 22 April 2001).]
It is true that the tracking Aircraft had sofisticated equipment etc. But all you needed to do was look up the A/C rego on the net and ring the owner, or havent they got internet access yet?
And I have a sneeking suspicion that a flight plan was filed, but was mysteriously or conveniently lost.I bet this comes out after further investigation.Kurmy I supose you are a PILOT , but have you flown a light aircraft to COSTA RICA from the U.S for vacation? If you havent, well alot of U.S. CITIZENS do, and some times they fly further a field. I think this shoot before asking later policy must stop NOW!!!!
And what about following the A/C to its destination( not far, considering it was a float plane) and using helicopters to land and investigate. This is how its done in the
U.S. Thank God AOPA sang out, when the US Government were going for this policy a while back.
Last point, rules of engagement, and rules for interception shouldnt be tucked away in some corner of the FARs should they!
Many people in the U.S believe this is a physical war over drugs. Well its not,its a mess of corruption thats starts a Capital Hill and ends in South America. You cant tell me the most Powerfull Nation in the Earth cant stop this.
My condolences to the Family. This is a sad day.
[This message has been edited by Sheep Guts (edited 22 April 2001).]
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Dallas Dude,
It is not DEA.
j
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Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
It is not DEA.
j
------------------
Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
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Well ,as sad as it is , that's the way things work down there. If you're flying with your Cessna/Piper or whatever fits into the "drug smuggler" category and do not respond to radio contact and signals ,you're as good as dead. They will shot you out of the skies without much of a trouble. Not only in Peru that sort of things happens. All the region that includes the borders of Brazil/Colombia/Peru/Venezuela is an extreme hot place. It happens more often than most people up here think. A lot more... but somehow this made it through the world news.
I once was at an airfield were they ferried in an AeroComander that was apreheended two days before in a farm doing drug runs. The plane was fitted with an extra tank (really a big rubber- or something alike - bag )that gave the plane more than 12 Hrs of flight time!! And they flow it all the way down from Colombia. They were caught only because one engine refused to start during the invasion (of the farm by the police). Now ,do you think if this plane was spotted one day over some distant place and refused to respond to the interceptors, that he would stay airborne for long? Think and get your own conclusion.
There is war in those places ,against the drugs ,and like in any war...sometimes innocent people pay the price too (unfortunatelly).
[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 22 April 2001).]
I once was at an airfield were they ferried in an AeroComander that was apreheended two days before in a farm doing drug runs. The plane was fitted with an extra tank (really a big rubber- or something alike - bag )that gave the plane more than 12 Hrs of flight time!! And they flow it all the way down from Colombia. They were caught only because one engine refused to start during the invasion (of the farm by the police). Now ,do you think if this plane was spotted one day over some distant place and refused to respond to the interceptors, that he would stay airborne for long? Think and get your own conclusion.
There is war in those places ,against the drugs ,and like in any war...sometimes innocent people pay the price too (unfortunatelly).
[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 22 April 2001).]
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TOUGH CALL -
If the U.S. has a problem with drugs, it's high time to take care of the dealers and users - at home.
A very common story in the U.S. is the local drug house operating for more than a year - always 'under surveilance.' Reporting the same house to 'higher authority' is begging to have your own housed torched.
If the C-185 isn't making moves to get away, it's simple enough to nail them when they land. I find no excuse for the U.S. to be playing the role of the local cop in a foreign country. Kill the trade with the country & let them clean up their own mess.
As usual, the U.S. is protecting their sacred cash flows.
Anybody with any experience in the area knows that's the turf of the Christians In Action (not the church kind). It's rarely about stopping drugs, as opposed to stopping competition. No rocket science involved.
Check out www.unfriendlyskies.com
The DEA cowboys owe God a woman and a kid.
If the U.S. has a problem with drugs, it's high time to take care of the dealers and users - at home.
A very common story in the U.S. is the local drug house operating for more than a year - always 'under surveilance.' Reporting the same house to 'higher authority' is begging to have your own housed torched.
If the C-185 isn't making moves to get away, it's simple enough to nail them when they land. I find no excuse for the U.S. to be playing the role of the local cop in a foreign country. Kill the trade with the country & let them clean up their own mess.
As usual, the U.S. is protecting their sacred cash flows.
Anybody with any experience in the area knows that's the turf of the Christians In Action (not the church kind). It's rarely about stopping drugs, as opposed to stopping competition. No rocket science involved.
Check out www.unfriendlyskies.com
The DEA cowboys owe God a woman and a kid.
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My thoughts are with those people. Believe Unwell Raptor and Dallas Dude have it right, friendly fire supported by US awacs type aircraft. Peru's main newspaper, El Comercio, say Iquitos tower confirmed that the float Cessna had filed a flight plan via radio on departing Islandia (which if I recall correctly is a lumber mill downstream from Iquitos). The woman and infant apparently died from rounds fired by the FAP aircraft and the pilot, Kevin Donaldson, was wounded badly in the right leg - exposed fracture.
Although the area is now rife with drug smuggling aircraft, Dallas Dude will remember there are dozens of missionary aircraft on floats operating there as well. I would imagine missionary pilots would be exceptionally alert to military aircraft and totally up to date regarding signalling, manoeuvering, radio procedures for identifying themselves correctly. The other woman on the aircraft said the attack came without any warning. Donaldson has to date given no statement.
None of the reports I've read say what time the attack occurred, but you don't fly around there on floats at night, full stop.
Although the area is now rife with drug smuggling aircraft, Dallas Dude will remember there are dozens of missionary aircraft on floats operating there as well. I would imagine missionary pilots would be exceptionally alert to military aircraft and totally up to date regarding signalling, manoeuvering, radio procedures for identifying themselves correctly. The other woman on the aircraft said the attack came without any warning. Donaldson has to date given no statement.
None of the reports I've read say what time the attack occurred, but you don't fly around there on floats at night, full stop.
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This is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Are we really sitting around here listening to a throw-away comment that there is a place on this planet where it is ROUTINE for light aircraft to be tagged as a target by the United States Drug Enforcement Agency and shot down without warning? Really?
This is monstrous! I'm not exactly in favour of drug smuggling but nevertheless I'm dead against any aircraft EVER being shot down unless war has been declared and the aircraft involved are combatant.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
This is monstrous! I'm not exactly in favour of drug smuggling but nevertheless I'm dead against any aircraft EVER being shot down unless war has been declared and the aircraft involved are combatant.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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Gotta say that if I was sitting in a light a/c and some hero in a fighter let lose with cannon and gun, which then resulted in the death (murder) of my wife and child - he'd better be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life.....
Ok, it's not very christian, but in that instance I'd convert to being a Muslim in order to take advantage of their 'eye for an eye' style of forgiveness !
Ok, it's not very christian, but in that instance I'd convert to being a Muslim in order to take advantage of their 'eye for an eye' style of forgiveness !
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Dallas Dude,
The aircraft are not just thrown together with "parts" a you so eloquently put it. But that is beside the point. I wasnot in Peru when that incident occured. The way the system works is either with or without supporting intel the C550 is launched to find the target.(eithr day or night) the I.D. is made (tail #) without the occupants being aware of the existance of the citation. Not a small feat when the C550 is heavy and the target slow or at night. Then the C550 will back off keeping he target on radar.(F16 intercapt radar peice of crap)The ID is ran through the system for flight plans,prior entries and wants/warrants. I the a/c is suspect due to the above criteria the FAP a/c is launched and vectored to the cite by the C550.(harder then it sounds)When the FAP a/c has both the C550 and the suspect in sight the C550 will move about a 1/4 mile back and slightly above to record the actions of the suspect and FAP a/c. What is suposed to happen is the FAP a/c will fly along side the suspect with a hand written sign to change radio freqs. If no response from the suspect the FAP a/c will accomplish the ICAO intercept procedures to include flap/gear lowering to attempt to convey the idea to the suspect toland. If that fails or is ignored shots are fired across the fr'ont of the aircraft. That failing the aircraft is shot down. I am not saying that it is the correct thing to do, but that is the way it was. I say was because those C550's are no longer down there as of 2 years ago. Any others till there do not belong to "those" guys. Since I was not there then and I very seriously doubt anyone here was EVER down there and don't know the "rest of the story" quit being the frigging Monday morning quarterback which seems so prevelant here(human nature I suppose)and stop casting blame without any idea of the situation realy is. I don't know and was not there. So Dallas Dude, I have no idea where you get your info but you need to do more research before you say things you know nothing about. The shooting down of the missionary plane as very unfortunate. I am positive if all the pilots envolved knew then what they know now things would have turned out differently. And I do think the best way to turn this drug thing around we should start in the home, schools and communities here first.
j
------------------
Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
The aircraft are not just thrown together with "parts" a you so eloquently put it. But that is beside the point. I wasnot in Peru when that incident occured. The way the system works is either with or without supporting intel the C550 is launched to find the target.(eithr day or night) the I.D. is made (tail #) without the occupants being aware of the existance of the citation. Not a small feat when the C550 is heavy and the target slow or at night. Then the C550 will back off keeping he target on radar.(F16 intercapt radar peice of crap)The ID is ran through the system for flight plans,prior entries and wants/warrants. I the a/c is suspect due to the above criteria the FAP a/c is launched and vectored to the cite by the C550.(harder then it sounds)When the FAP a/c has both the C550 and the suspect in sight the C550 will move about a 1/4 mile back and slightly above to record the actions of the suspect and FAP a/c. What is suposed to happen is the FAP a/c will fly along side the suspect with a hand written sign to change radio freqs. If no response from the suspect the FAP a/c will accomplish the ICAO intercept procedures to include flap/gear lowering to attempt to convey the idea to the suspect toland. If that fails or is ignored shots are fired across the fr'ont of the aircraft. That failing the aircraft is shot down. I am not saying that it is the correct thing to do, but that is the way it was. I say was because those C550's are no longer down there as of 2 years ago. Any others till there do not belong to "those" guys. Since I was not there then and I very seriously doubt anyone here was EVER down there and don't know the "rest of the story" quit being the frigging Monday morning quarterback which seems so prevelant here(human nature I suppose)and stop casting blame without any idea of the situation realy is. I don't know and was not there. So Dallas Dude, I have no idea where you get your info but you need to do more research before you say things you know nothing about. The shooting down of the missionary plane as very unfortunate. I am positive if all the pilots envolved knew then what they know now things would have turned out differently. And I do think the best way to turn this drug thing around we should start in the home, schools and communities here first.
j
------------------
Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
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SPIN DOCTOR! SPIN DOCTOR! HELP ME!
My heart aches for the families involved and those affected by the end result of this tragedy.
It makes me sick to watch the media throw out the denials of the support aircraft being military. It's not important WHAT the aircraft was, other than it being a U.S. law enforcement aircraft (allegedly) in a foreign land doing far more to kill competition in the drug trade, as opposed to stopping drug traffic into the U.S..
With a moments thought, it is obvious that the U.S. aircraft would do far more good stopping drug flights across the U.S. borders. But, actually stopping the traffic is not the point, so the assets are alternately deployed.
The journalists know the inside scoop, so they asked the CIA for comment - there was none. Reading between those lines, the Agency would be otherwise expected to assert that they are not involved, therefore, unable to provide any information. Well, guess what the truth is???
My heart aches for the families involved and those affected by the end result of this tragedy.
It makes me sick to watch the media throw out the denials of the support aircraft being military. It's not important WHAT the aircraft was, other than it being a U.S. law enforcement aircraft (allegedly) in a foreign land doing far more to kill competition in the drug trade, as opposed to stopping drug traffic into the U.S..
With a moments thought, it is obvious that the U.S. aircraft would do far more good stopping drug flights across the U.S. borders. But, actually stopping the traffic is not the point, so the assets are alternately deployed.
The journalists know the inside scoop, so they asked the CIA for comment - there was none. Reading between those lines, the Agency would be otherwise expected to assert that they are not involved, therefore, unable to provide any information. Well, guess what the truth is???
Cunning Artificer
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before landing check list,
"The shooting down of the missionary plane was very unfortunate." Now read that back. Roll it around the tongue a bit. Reflect on it.
Yes it was very unfortunate wasn't it. Very unfortunate.
There are those who are determined to protect us against drug dealers if they have to kill every last one of us in the attempt. Its not as if drug dealers are REAL people after all. They are sub-human, right? And those damned missionaries just have to learn to keep out of the way. Well, every journey starts with one small step, and look where Adolf Hitler led us.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
"The shooting down of the missionary plane was very unfortunate." Now read that back. Roll it around the tongue a bit. Reflect on it.
Yes it was very unfortunate wasn't it. Very unfortunate.
There are those who are determined to protect us against drug dealers if they have to kill every last one of us in the attempt. Its not as if drug dealers are REAL people after all. They are sub-human, right? And those damned missionaries just have to learn to keep out of the way. Well, every journey starts with one small step, and look where Adolf Hitler led us.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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MEDIA REPORTING THE TRUTH; JUST READ -
Despite denials, the Citation was owned by the U.S. Department of Defense. It was a U.S. military plane, regardless of markings and crew. Despite U.S. Air Force ownership, look to who was at the controls and who was on board.
Despite the finger pointing, the CIA fingered the C-185.
Despite all that was known, the C-185 pilot was not warned, nor given a chance to authenticate his identity by the U.S. crew. Such a warning is not a breach of the infamous chain-of-command.
Despite procedures and known facts in the immediate time frame, a known innocent plane was shot down in a blatant act of murder. There are no denials available. Realizing their mistake, the CIA begged the Peruvian Air Force to stop - they didn't.
Despite the nobility of the intentions, the involvement of the CIA is to be questioned - in bloody close detail.
Despite the idealism, Christian hope will be denied to the villagers as a consequence. Greed demands submission, not hope and morality.
Despite the U.S. Freedom of Information act, the videotapes and transcripts will not be released. This is about money - a lot of it.
Despite the anticipated “plausible denial,” the effective U.S efforts to intervene will be stopped; the drug trade from Peru, via Colombia, to the U.S. will increase.
Despite the power of the illusions, drug trade is the first benefactor of the Free Trade Agreements of the Quebec City conference.
Americans need to get used to it, their kids are destined to pay the price. The results of history will testify that Washington doesn’t really care. As with aviation safety, it’s all about money.
Deal with it!
Despite denials, the Citation was owned by the U.S. Department of Defense. It was a U.S. military plane, regardless of markings and crew. Despite U.S. Air Force ownership, look to who was at the controls and who was on board.
Despite the finger pointing, the CIA fingered the C-185.
Despite all that was known, the C-185 pilot was not warned, nor given a chance to authenticate his identity by the U.S. crew. Such a warning is not a breach of the infamous chain-of-command.
Despite procedures and known facts in the immediate time frame, a known innocent plane was shot down in a blatant act of murder. There are no denials available. Realizing their mistake, the CIA begged the Peruvian Air Force to stop - they didn't.
Despite the nobility of the intentions, the involvement of the CIA is to be questioned - in bloody close detail.
Despite the idealism, Christian hope will be denied to the villagers as a consequence. Greed demands submission, not hope and morality.
Despite the U.S. Freedom of Information act, the videotapes and transcripts will not be released. This is about money - a lot of it.
Despite the anticipated “plausible denial,” the effective U.S efforts to intervene will be stopped; the drug trade from Peru, via Colombia, to the U.S. will increase.
Despite the power of the illusions, drug trade is the first benefactor of the Free Trade Agreements of the Quebec City conference.
Americans need to get used to it, their kids are destined to pay the price. The results of history will testify that Washington doesn’t really care. As with aviation safety, it’s all about money.
Deal with it!