Flash Airlines B737 Crash in Egypt
Black box located, but too deep to recover until they get another sub.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...pt_plane_crash
Some excerpts:
Crews Find Egypt Plane Crash 'Black Box'
Tue Jan 6, 2:51 PM ET
By JOCELYN GECKER, Associated Press Writer
SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - Searchers located one of the black box flight data recorders Tuesday from a charter jet that crashed into the Red Sea last weekend, but it was too far under the water to be immediately retrieved, a French official said.
Rear Adm. Jacques Mazars told reporters at the popular Sinai resort of Sharm el-Sheik that more advanced equipment was needed to retrieve the box, which was believed to be 2,000 to 2,500 feet below the sea's surface.
"Given the approximate depth of the black box, it is not possible to find it immediately with the means that we have," he said.
A robot submarine sent by the French can operate no deeper than 1,300 feet. Mazars, who heads the French forces sent to Egypt to help with the search, said the French Defense Ministry might send a remote-control submarine that can go deeper, but that it would take a week to arrive.
<cut>
Officials have not yet found the fuselage of the 11-year-old Boeing 737, but Mazars said that searchers on Tuesday used a sonar attached to a robotic arm extending from a boat to determine that a signal that had been picked up was from the recorders. The signal is about 500 to 600 yards from where the plane is believed to have crashed.
Mazars said the search for the fuselage was focused on a surface area of less than 2.5 acres, four to five miles from shore.
"Underwater acoustics are not an exact science," he said. "We have a zone of probability that is rather strong."
Egyptian officials say they do not know what sort of mechanical problem may have occurred and said the jet checked out fine before the flight.
<cut>
France's top aviation official said Monday the crash appeared to be accidental, but he still could not rule out terrorism.
"We have no information concerning the cause of this accident, and until we have the flight recorder, we won't know," said Michel Wachenheim, head of France's Civil Aviation Authority. "We cannot exclude either an accident or a criminal cause."
But body parts recovered thus far have shown no burns, suggesting there was no explosion, French Deputy Foreign Minister Renaud Muselier said Monday.
Since the jet was American-made, the United States was sending a team of investigators, including experts from Boeing.
France has sent in 500 personnel and dispatched equipment, including a military surveillance plane looking for floating debris. French forensics experts were hoping to identify body parts through DNA testing.
Families of victims were to begin arriving Wednesday in Sharm el-Sheik, about 480 miles southeast of Cairo, for memorial services on land and sea. French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin is also flying in for the ceremonies.
<cut>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...pt_plane_crash
Some excerpts:
Crews Find Egypt Plane Crash 'Black Box'
Tue Jan 6, 2:51 PM ET
By JOCELYN GECKER, Associated Press Writer
SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - Searchers located one of the black box flight data recorders Tuesday from a charter jet that crashed into the Red Sea last weekend, but it was too far under the water to be immediately retrieved, a French official said.
Rear Adm. Jacques Mazars told reporters at the popular Sinai resort of Sharm el-Sheik that more advanced equipment was needed to retrieve the box, which was believed to be 2,000 to 2,500 feet below the sea's surface.
"Given the approximate depth of the black box, it is not possible to find it immediately with the means that we have," he said.
A robot submarine sent by the French can operate no deeper than 1,300 feet. Mazars, who heads the French forces sent to Egypt to help with the search, said the French Defense Ministry might send a remote-control submarine that can go deeper, but that it would take a week to arrive.
<cut>
Officials have not yet found the fuselage of the 11-year-old Boeing 737, but Mazars said that searchers on Tuesday used a sonar attached to a robotic arm extending from a boat to determine that a signal that had been picked up was from the recorders. The signal is about 500 to 600 yards from where the plane is believed to have crashed.
Mazars said the search for the fuselage was focused on a surface area of less than 2.5 acres, four to five miles from shore.
"Underwater acoustics are not an exact science," he said. "We have a zone of probability that is rather strong."
Egyptian officials say they do not know what sort of mechanical problem may have occurred and said the jet checked out fine before the flight.
<cut>
France's top aviation official said Monday the crash appeared to be accidental, but he still could not rule out terrorism.
"We have no information concerning the cause of this accident, and until we have the flight recorder, we won't know," said Michel Wachenheim, head of France's Civil Aviation Authority. "We cannot exclude either an accident or a criminal cause."
But body parts recovered thus far have shown no burns, suggesting there was no explosion, French Deputy Foreign Minister Renaud Muselier said Monday.
Since the jet was American-made, the United States was sending a team of investigators, including experts from Boeing.
France has sent in 500 personnel and dispatched equipment, including a military surveillance plane looking for floating debris. French forensics experts were hoping to identify body parts through DNA testing.
Families of victims were to begin arriving Wednesday in Sharm el-Sheik, about 480 miles southeast of Cairo, for memorial services on land and sea. French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin is also flying in for the ceremonies.
<cut>
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Flash Airline No Insurance??
I am hearing that Flash May have No insurance, or may not be covered.
I really hope this is not the case.
BTW This is my first post, I am not a pilot, as the name suggests, I’m just an aviation fan, and an avid Flight Simmer.
I would however Like to extend My thanks to all the Crews that have always no matter what Airline I have flown on, been very good, and Im sure done their best to keep me and fellow pax safe. I salute you.
I really hope this is not the case.
BTW This is my first post, I am not a pilot, as the name suggests, I’m just an aviation fan, and an avid Flight Simmer.
I would however Like to extend My thanks to all the Crews that have always no matter what Airline I have flown on, been very good, and Im sure done their best to keep me and fellow pax safe. I salute you.
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Quote from Post Magazine
"GAB Robins Aviation has been instructed to handle the claim for the Flash Airlines jet that crashed into the Red Sea over the weekend with the loss of 148 lives.
Andrew Cripps, claims manager, said "One of our leading surveyors, Chris Harden, is currently on site and will be carrying out investigations in Sharm el Sheikh and Cairo."
GAB Robins Aviation has also been instructed to investigate the claim for Boeing 727 which took off from Benin but crashed into the Atlantic at the end of the runway. "
"GAB Robins Aviation has been instructed to handle the claim for the Flash Airlines jet that crashed into the Red Sea over the weekend with the loss of 148 lives.
Andrew Cripps, claims manager, said "One of our leading surveyors, Chris Harden, is currently on site and will be carrying out investigations in Sharm el Sheikh and Cairo."
GAB Robins Aviation has also been instructed to investigate the claim for Boeing 727 which took off from Benin but crashed into the Atlantic at the end of the runway. "
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Sorry Its just, I Guess at this stage a rumor I have heard from somone I know who works Within the Holiday Industury and within that Area, of the world.
I would not read into it too much at present, But im sure it wont be long now
I would not read into it too much at present, But im sure it wont be long now
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Insurance for Flash
Dream_Pilot - it looks like they have cover, insurance times reports:
"GAB Robins has been appointed loss adjusters following the Egyptian air crash on 3 January.
GAB Robins claims manager Andrew Cripps said surveyor Chris Harden was on site and would be leading the investigation.
It is understood that some cover for the Flash Airlines plane was placed with XL Capital's Lloyd's syndicate.
All 148 people on board the Flash Airlines Boeing 737, including 133 French nationals, were killed when the plane plunged into the Red Sea near the Egyptian resort town Sharm el-Sheikh.
A spokeswoman for Lloyd's said the market was not expecting a large loss following the crash, although the situation was being closely monitored."
"GAB Robins has been appointed loss adjusters following the Egyptian air crash on 3 January.
GAB Robins claims manager Andrew Cripps said surveyor Chris Harden was on site and would be leading the investigation.
It is understood that some cover for the Flash Airlines plane was placed with XL Capital's Lloyd's syndicate.
All 148 people on board the Flash Airlines Boeing 737, including 133 French nationals, were killed when the plane plunged into the Red Sea near the Egyptian resort town Sharm el-Sheikh.
A spokeswoman for Lloyd's said the market was not expecting a large loss following the crash, although the situation was being closely monitored."
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Now the BBC have picked up on the European 'banned and damned' list, and have opened the debate it up to the general public.
Airline safety is such an emotive subject, I can understand why some countries are careful about disclosure, particularly if those carriers responsible have since taken responsibility for their safety issues.
On the other hand, every person involved in flying at any level (students like me included) are drilled so meticulously that safety is everything that one shouldn't really allow excuses.
The tricky question is, what to do?
Airline safety is such an emotive subject, I can understand why some countries are careful about disclosure, particularly if those carriers responsible have since taken responsibility for their safety issues.
On the other hand, every person involved in flying at any level (students like me included) are drilled so meticulously that safety is everything that one shouldn't really allow excuses.
The tricky question is, what to do?
Pegase Driver
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Some info gathered today :
Flash airlines had also its oprating licence revoqued in Poland in 2002, but, following some maintenance, it was reinstalled in 2003.
The ill-fated aircraft has had 7 different registrations since delivered by Boeing in 1993.
On the recovery of the CVR/FDR : the FDR was positively identified today at a depth of 800m ( plus or minus 50 meters ) and the CVR , laying 1500 meters away at a depth estimated around 600m . France has commissionned the private Marseilles based firm COMEX to retreive them using one of their deep sea robots. It should arrive on site in 6 to 7 days.
France has also diverted their deep sea oceonographic ship " Beautemps-Beaupre" currently in the Atlantic , it is due to arrive on site on 14 or 15 january.
The recorders are not expected to be raised before 10 days or so from now.
Flash airlines had also its oprating licence revoqued in Poland in 2002, but, following some maintenance, it was reinstalled in 2003.
The ill-fated aircraft has had 7 different registrations since delivered by Boeing in 1993.
On the recovery of the CVR/FDR : the FDR was positively identified today at a depth of 800m ( plus or minus 50 meters ) and the CVR , laying 1500 meters away at a depth estimated around 600m . France has commissionned the private Marseilles based firm COMEX to retreive them using one of their deep sea robots. It should arrive on site in 6 to 7 days.
France has also diverted their deep sea oceonographic ship " Beautemps-Beaupre" currently in the Atlantic , it is due to arrive on site on 14 or 15 january.
The recorders are not expected to be raised before 10 days or so from now.
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Insurance/Liability...
Dream_
he "rumor" you heard perhaps refers to the fact that since Egypt did not sign the Montreal convention, the liability paiments for the victims family will be governed by the Warsaw convention. The amounts could therefore be much less than what would be paid otherwise. About 1/10 .
Regards
he "rumor" you heard perhaps refers to the fact that since Egypt did not sign the Montreal convention, the liability paiments for the victims family will be governed by the Warsaw convention. The amounts could therefore be much less than what would be paid otherwise. About 1/10 .
Regards
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Do not believe all what newspapers say.
Dutytimes in Egypt are strict regulated and a max dutytime for a `heavy `crew, for a day departure would be around 16 hours; single crew 13hrs. Add multiple landings and night operations and you are further restricted. I do not know if Flash was operating single, heavy or double crew on this flight.
Although every operator may impose his own, more restrictive rules, I recall JAR ops being more flexible in this.
I read the posts where people insinuate `rogue` operators, cowboys, doubt about legal insurance covers...etc.
And nobody knows the reason of the crash yet..
This only proves matters about knowledge of writers of those posts. Nothing about Flash Airlines...
And for the records, I have no connection with Flash Airlines, but I am tempted to react because I think they do not deserve this way of contemplating.
Dutytimes in Egypt are strict regulated and a max dutytime for a `heavy `crew, for a day departure would be around 16 hours; single crew 13hrs. Add multiple landings and night operations and you are further restricted. I do not know if Flash was operating single, heavy or double crew on this flight.
Although every operator may impose his own, more restrictive rules, I recall JAR ops being more flexible in this.
I read the posts where people insinuate `rogue` operators, cowboys, doubt about legal insurance covers...etc.
And nobody knows the reason of the crash yet..
This only proves matters about knowledge of writers of those posts. Nothing about Flash Airlines...
And for the records, I have no connection with Flash Airlines, but I am tempted to react because I think they do not deserve this way of contemplating.
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DUTY TIME IN FLASHAIR....
Latetonite, are you so sure this airline had rules and they were never broken?
We read pages and pages on Pprune about some Western Europe low cost airline endangering its operations with crazy rostering imposed on their pilots.
Can't you imagine such a situation is impossible to occur in a charter Egyptian airline, in which regularity of maintenance is allready questionned?
We read pages and pages on Pprune about some Western Europe low cost airline endangering its operations with crazy rostering imposed on their pilots.
Can't you imagine such a situation is impossible to occur in a charter Egyptian airline, in which regularity of maintenance is allready questionned?
Just idly taking times vs. distances ( great circle @ a G/S OF 550KTS) ,and assuming one crew only , then they would have done a 15 hr.+ duty , arriving at Cairo, having started about lunchtime the previous day.
If there had been a second crew , I can`t see any benefit, on any earlier legs, unless they were deadheading only to Cairo.
If there had been a second crew , I can`t see any benefit, on any earlier legs, unless they were deadheading only to Cairo.
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Of course I am not sure they never broke the rules. And I would be surprised if they never did. How about yourself? But Us Being Not Sure if they ever broke rules, does not make Them crooks or cowboys.
We have no facts. We should not judge. Did you notice all the bravo`s for the crew of the Fokker 70 in Europe? And without having the facts? Maybe they were just lucky, we do not know.
The `bad `guys in SSH must have been unlucky I guess..
We have no facts. We should not judge. Did you notice all the bravo`s for the crew of the Fokker 70 in Europe? And without having the facts? Maybe they were just lucky, we do not know.
The `bad `guys in SSH must have been unlucky I guess..
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Simple maths,if you don't mind:
We are told that the aircraft fell from 4.800 ft to the sea in just 17 seconds;Thats a mean vertical speed of 17,000 ft/min.Assuming,it was accelerating from zero as it was in a more or less level flight path,the terminal velocity could be well in the vicinity of 34,000 ft/min.That translates into 336 kts or 386 mph or again 620 km/h.Assuming also,being below 10,000 ft their IAS was around 250 kts at the time that descent started,we -or rather I- could say,that aircraft went almost straight down....
That's a major "loss of control" if I ever heard of one...but it looks like the suspected rudder-hard-over accidents which happened on the 737 and which should have been corrected since.Has Flash Airlines done the modification?
Anyone knows?
We are told that the aircraft fell from 4.800 ft to the sea in just 17 seconds;Thats a mean vertical speed of 17,000 ft/min.Assuming,it was accelerating from zero as it was in a more or less level flight path,the terminal velocity could be well in the vicinity of 34,000 ft/min.That translates into 336 kts or 386 mph or again 620 km/h.Assuming also,being below 10,000 ft their IAS was around 250 kts at the time that descent started,we -or rather I- could say,that aircraft went almost straight down....
That's a major "loss of control" if I ever heard of one...but it looks like the suspected rudder-hard-over accidents which happened on the 737 and which should have been corrected since.Has Flash Airlines done the modification?
Anyone knows?
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Lemurian,
Even if the aircraft was unmodified or had a hard over, the aircraft should have been flying faster than crossover speed in the takeoff regime so the ailerons would have been easily able to overpower a fully hardover rudder.
Cheers
Wino
Even if the aircraft was unmodified or had a hard over, the aircraft should have been flying faster than crossover speed in the takeoff regime so the ailerons would have been easily able to overpower a fully hardover rudder.
Cheers
Wino
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Lemurian, I was waiting for someone to do the simple math that indicates the violence of this accident. I think a deliberate dive towards the ocean would also look something like this as well.
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A controlled dive into the sea - in Egypt, not at all likely. Recall, even 990 was caused by "mechanical" (actuator) problems which caused a downward movement in the elevators, or, weather must have been involved, or the ATC Controller leaving her post for a few seconds when the event began must have contributed to the incident - failed to record the almost mid air - should I go on? One thing is most likely, when and if the CVR is recovered, it will be rushed to CAI, and the contents never published, or at least, the truth. Probably the same with the FDR unless some blame is directed toward Boeing. And there in lies the real tradegy, for all of us.
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Everyone seems rather pre-occupied with 737 rudders going hard over - but that's a non-player really (as pointed out by Wino).
However it's starting to add up more firmly to a loss of flight instruments followed by a major loss of control (just a roll through the wings vertical at their weight would suffice). I saw an unconfirmed report that a lady passenger had made a cell-phone call after take-off and indicated that the captain had mentioned a problem.
That would allow perhaps for a captain's announcement (before they took switching action and lost it - perhaps to the effect that they'd be "turning off the cabin bus shortly due to an electrical/fumes problem"). Boeing has had two unresolved cases now of PFD's dying across the cockpit (both 747's admittedly). I think I saw that this 733 had a retro-fitted glass cockpit.
There wasn't enough time to totally lose it through dense smoke. But if they lost it (their flt insts) due to the crew over-enthusiastically securing (monitoring off) electrical busses, then the CVR and DFDR will probably be minus a lot of vital info.....per SR-111.
However it's starting to add up more firmly to a loss of flight instruments followed by a major loss of control (just a roll through the wings vertical at their weight would suffice). I saw an unconfirmed report that a lady passenger had made a cell-phone call after take-off and indicated that the captain had mentioned a problem.
That would allow perhaps for a captain's announcement (before they took switching action and lost it - perhaps to the effect that they'd be "turning off the cabin bus shortly due to an electrical/fumes problem"). Boeing has had two unresolved cases now of PFD's dying across the cockpit (both 747's admittedly). I think I saw that this 733 had a retro-fitted glass cockpit.
There wasn't enough time to totally lose it through dense smoke. But if they lost it (their flt insts) due to the crew over-enthusiastically securing (monitoring off) electrical busses, then the CVR and DFDR will probably be minus a lot of vital info.....per SR-111.