Flash Airlines B737 Crash in Egypt
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Here's a thought.
It's an old B737 (used to fly them), flying with possibly a shoe string operational setup.
What is the probability that this aircraft did not have the Rudder Ad complied with, and that the is a rudder hardover at night (no horizon) at low altitude and possibly below the cross-over speed?
Just a thought,hope the find the data recorder soon!!
ANT
It's an old B737 (used to fly them), flying with possibly a shoe string operational setup.
What is the probability that this aircraft did not have the Rudder Ad complied with, and that the is a rudder hardover at night (no horizon) at low altitude and possibly below the cross-over speed?
Just a thought,hope the find the data recorder soon!!
ANT
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...pt_plane_crash
There are some photos along with the story:
Robot Sub Joins Egyptian Crash Search
2 hours, 56 minutes ago
By SALAH NASRAWI, Associated Press Writer
SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - The French Navy deployed a robot submarine as France and Egypt launched a major push Monday to find the fuselage and flight data recorders of the aircraft that crashed into the Red Sea, killing 148 people.
The parts of bodies recovered from the sea so far bore no burns, suggesting there was no explosion on the Egyptian chartered Boeing 737 that plunged into the sea minutes after takeoff on Saturday, French Deputy Foreign Minister Renaud Muselier said Monday.
The crash came amid world wide fears that terrorists would use an aircraft to stage an atrocity. But Muselier told France-Info radio, "there is no reason to believe there was an attack." He added he thought the crash, which killed 133 French citizens, was an accident.
Egyptian officials say the crash appears to have been caused by a mechanical problem.
Swiss aviation authorities had banned the airline, Flash Airlines, after it failed an inspection at Zurich airport in October 2002. The same month, one of Flash's two Boeings was forced to make an emergency landing in Athens after an engine caught fire.
The chairman of Flash Airlines, Mohamed Nour, told The Associated Press that the company made the necessary improvements and passed a second Swiss inspection — but the Swiss denied this. Nour said the aircraft that suffered the fire was overhauled and subsequently maintained to international standards.
The depth of the Red Sea at the crash site has hampered efforts to retrieve the remains of the aircraft and find the flight data recorders. The sea is believed to be 880 yards deep at that point.
The French began using a frigate, a helicopter, 16 divers and an aircraft equipped with advanced radar and an ultra violet camera to search for the wreckage Monday, said French Embassy spokesman Ahmed Fadil.
The robot submarine, called Achille after the ancient Greek hero, has a video camera and can dive to a maximum of 440 yards, Fadil said.
The Egyptian Navy had six boats in the crash area Monday.
The wife of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites), Suzanne Mubarak, dropped a wreath on to the water at the site Monday.
"It is a big tragedy and I am here to express condolences to all the families of the victims," she told reporters. French relatives of the dead are expected to arrive mid week in this resort near the southern end of the Sinai peninsula.
French, Egyptian and Japanese officials laid wreaths at the site on Sunday.
So far about 60 body parts have been recovered and no entire corpse — an indication of the impact of the plane which suddenly descended from more than 5,000 feet.
Egypt has said the Flash Airlines jet, an 11-year-old Boeing 737, had checked out fine before the flight.
There are some photos along with the story:
Robot Sub Joins Egyptian Crash Search
2 hours, 56 minutes ago
By SALAH NASRAWI, Associated Press Writer
SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - The French Navy deployed a robot submarine as France and Egypt launched a major push Monday to find the fuselage and flight data recorders of the aircraft that crashed into the Red Sea, killing 148 people.
The parts of bodies recovered from the sea so far bore no burns, suggesting there was no explosion on the Egyptian chartered Boeing 737 that plunged into the sea minutes after takeoff on Saturday, French Deputy Foreign Minister Renaud Muselier said Monday.
The crash came amid world wide fears that terrorists would use an aircraft to stage an atrocity. But Muselier told France-Info radio, "there is no reason to believe there was an attack." He added he thought the crash, which killed 133 French citizens, was an accident.
Egyptian officials say the crash appears to have been caused by a mechanical problem.
Swiss aviation authorities had banned the airline, Flash Airlines, after it failed an inspection at Zurich airport in October 2002. The same month, one of Flash's two Boeings was forced to make an emergency landing in Athens after an engine caught fire.
The chairman of Flash Airlines, Mohamed Nour, told The Associated Press that the company made the necessary improvements and passed a second Swiss inspection — but the Swiss denied this. Nour said the aircraft that suffered the fire was overhauled and subsequently maintained to international standards.
The depth of the Red Sea at the crash site has hampered efforts to retrieve the remains of the aircraft and find the flight data recorders. The sea is believed to be 880 yards deep at that point.
The French began using a frigate, a helicopter, 16 divers and an aircraft equipped with advanced radar and an ultra violet camera to search for the wreckage Monday, said French Embassy spokesman Ahmed Fadil.
The robot submarine, called Achille after the ancient Greek hero, has a video camera and can dive to a maximum of 440 yards, Fadil said.
The Egyptian Navy had six boats in the crash area Monday.
The wife of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites), Suzanne Mubarak, dropped a wreath on to the water at the site Monday.
"It is a big tragedy and I am here to express condolences to all the families of the victims," she told reporters. French relatives of the dead are expected to arrive mid week in this resort near the southern end of the Sinai peninsula.
French, Egyptian and Japanese officials laid wreaths at the site on Sunday.
So far about 60 body parts have been recovered and no entire corpse — an indication of the impact of the plane which suddenly descended from more than 5,000 feet.
Egypt has said the Flash Airlines jet, an 11-year-old Boeing 737, had checked out fine before the flight.
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With regard to the search for FDR and CVR, I'm surprised that they are saying the water is the best part of 1000m deep at the crash scene. I'm no hydrographer but the geography of the area makes it seem unlikely. Are there any of you sub-aqua people out there with hard information?
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The depths over there can indeed exceed 1000 meters. If I am not mistaken, there is a well known rift that starts way south and continues all the way North to the Gulf of Aqaba. I went diving down there once and the view (of that rift underwater) is absolutely breath-taking.
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05 Jan 2004 18:50:28 GMT
Swiss say two Flash Airlines planes were unsafe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Adds company officials unavailable)
ZURICH, Jan 5 (Reuters) - Swiss authorities said they had found two aircraft unsafe in 2002 that were operated by the Egyptian Flash Airlines, raising the possibility that one was the plane that crashed into the Red Sea on Saturday.
In Cairo, Flash officials were not immediately available to comment on the Swiss report.
But they have said the doomed charter plane was one of only two that Flash has operated in recent years, including all of 2002, although Swiss officials were unable to confirm positively that it was one of those they had inspected.
The aircraft, bound for Cairo and Paris, crashed after taking off from Egypt's Sharm el-Sheikh resort, killing all 148 people on board.
The Swiss Federal Office for Civil Aviation said it had inspected one of the company's aircraft in April 2002 and found that navigation documents were missing, fuel reserves were not calculated to international standards and the signposting of emergency exits was partly "in unusable condition".
"In addition, obvious maintenance deficiencies were found in the areas of the landing gear, the engines and the aircraft steering," it said in a statement.
It said the inspection of a second Flash Airlines aircraft in October 2002 had revealed "essentially the same defects".
After the airline failed to provide sufficient proof that it had remedied the defects, it was barred from landing in Switzerland a few days later, the office said.
It stressed that it was drawing no conclusion about the cause of Saturday's crash.
Egyptian authorities have been eager to defend their aviation safety record, and the head of Flash Airlines told Reuters on Sunday the Swiss landing ban had been based on financial disputes between the airline and its Swiss handling company, rather than safety concerns.
Swiss say two Flash Airlines planes were unsafe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Adds company officials unavailable)
ZURICH, Jan 5 (Reuters) - Swiss authorities said they had found two aircraft unsafe in 2002 that were operated by the Egyptian Flash Airlines, raising the possibility that one was the plane that crashed into the Red Sea on Saturday.
In Cairo, Flash officials were not immediately available to comment on the Swiss report.
But they have said the doomed charter plane was one of only two that Flash has operated in recent years, including all of 2002, although Swiss officials were unable to confirm positively that it was one of those they had inspected.
The aircraft, bound for Cairo and Paris, crashed after taking off from Egypt's Sharm el-Sheikh resort, killing all 148 people on board.
The Swiss Federal Office for Civil Aviation said it had inspected one of the company's aircraft in April 2002 and found that navigation documents were missing, fuel reserves were not calculated to international standards and the signposting of emergency exits was partly "in unusable condition".
"In addition, obvious maintenance deficiencies were found in the areas of the landing gear, the engines and the aircraft steering," it said in a statement.
It said the inspection of a second Flash Airlines aircraft in October 2002 had revealed "essentially the same defects".
After the airline failed to provide sufficient proof that it had remedied the defects, it was barred from landing in Switzerland a few days later, the office said.
It stressed that it was drawing no conclusion about the cause of Saturday's crash.
Egyptian authorities have been eager to defend their aviation safety record, and the head of Flash Airlines told Reuters on Sunday the Swiss landing ban had been based on financial disputes between the airline and its Swiss handling company, rather than safety concerns.
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Group action needed...
...as more and more informations are released about Flashair folkloric operations.
This accident reminds us that air safety is depending on checks performed by responsible authorities which dare to use the power of the law to stop the operations of faulty airlines.
The history of dramas caused by lack of regulation is allready too long (American Airline DC 10 in Chicago, Valuejet in Florida,....).
Political pressure is revealed by this declaration of French Minister about "Egypt classed in first category for Air transport" or "Flashair satisfying airline...".
An association of the victims relatives is needed, which could speak loudly and say what has to be said ,disregarding political issues, so we can reach the truth in the interest of passengers and crews.
This accident reminds us that air safety is depending on checks performed by responsible authorities which dare to use the power of the law to stop the operations of faulty airlines.
The history of dramas caused by lack of regulation is allready too long (American Airline DC 10 in Chicago, Valuejet in Florida,....).
Political pressure is revealed by this declaration of French Minister about "Egypt classed in first category for Air transport" or "Flashair satisfying airline...".
An association of the victims relatives is needed, which could speak loudly and say what has to be said ,disregarding political issues, so we can reach the truth in the interest of passengers and crews.
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As an amateur diver, once resident on the Red Sea, I can add my confirmation that many parts are very deep (as was pointed out, due to the Red Sea being a rift area at the boundary of two continental plates).
Those depths are well beyond any possible human diving level (in other words, it won't be human hands picking up the pieces), and seriously technical even for robots/undersea vehicles. These types of equipment usually require a surface support vessel. It may take some time before a suitable one gets to the area. Don't expect recovery to be easy, fast or cheap.
Those depths are well beyond any possible human diving level (in other words, it won't be human hands picking up the pieces), and seriously technical even for robots/undersea vehicles. These types of equipment usually require a surface support vessel. It may take some time before a suitable one gets to the area. Don't expect recovery to be easy, fast or cheap.
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I just want to chip in with what I hope is clear cut thinking. There seems to be a lot of fingerwaving and gaggling going on about this crash, which is I suppose understandable given the current political circumstances, but I think the collective tendency to turn it into a conspiracy theory is a bit over the top.
In particular, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that the Egyptian authorities are hell bent on covering anything up here. After all, which is worse for their tourism industry - falling victim to a terrorism incident; or being slung with the stigma of packing visiting tourists like sardines into dangerous aircraft?
My apologies if that question sounds at all fecetious, but either way they will have blood on their hands in that respect. In fact one could go as far as to suggest that an incident of terrorism would be perceived as an unfortunate part of the bigger picture, wheras a dodgy plane is a country that doesn't take its visitors' safety seriuosly enough. My point being that the latter is hardly a cover up for the former.
I'm not trying to defend the Egyptian officials here, I just think that this part of the discussion is getting unduly distorted. They are after all politicians and we can't really expect anything less from politicians than for them to try to 'play it down' until the facts are in.
Sifting through the eight pages of speculation on this thread there are only really a few things that emerge as facts:
a) the plane crashed
b) the aircraft and its operators where officially known to be problematic (and unofficially there is much to corroberate this).
c) the authorities were aware of the situation, but too slow in resolving it.
So, it's not exactly ludicrous to suspect at this stage that the event was an accident. Unless any other information emerges that proves otherwise, I think I would be able to accept that as the most plausible explaination. Tragic nonetheless. My condolences are with the families of those lost.
In particular, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that the Egyptian authorities are hell bent on covering anything up here. After all, which is worse for their tourism industry - falling victim to a terrorism incident; or being slung with the stigma of packing visiting tourists like sardines into dangerous aircraft?
My apologies if that question sounds at all fecetious, but either way they will have blood on their hands in that respect. In fact one could go as far as to suggest that an incident of terrorism would be perceived as an unfortunate part of the bigger picture, wheras a dodgy plane is a country that doesn't take its visitors' safety seriuosly enough. My point being that the latter is hardly a cover up for the former.
I'm not trying to defend the Egyptian officials here, I just think that this part of the discussion is getting unduly distorted. They are after all politicians and we can't really expect anything less from politicians than for them to try to 'play it down' until the facts are in.
Sifting through the eight pages of speculation on this thread there are only really a few things that emerge as facts:
a) the plane crashed
b) the aircraft and its operators where officially known to be problematic (and unofficially there is much to corroberate this).
c) the authorities were aware of the situation, but too slow in resolving it.
So, it's not exactly ludicrous to suspect at this stage that the event was an accident. Unless any other information emerges that proves otherwise, I think I would be able to accept that as the most plausible explaination. Tragic nonetheless. My condolences are with the families of those lost.
Union Goon
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Actually the A300 I think more or less pancaked in in a flat spin after the tail seperated and the engines detached, though there is no flight data after the engines seperated (which was after the tail came off)
This smells like a loss of controll for me as well. I already said Spatial disorientation, and that's what I am going with till more data arives, but a climbing turn over a black hole can be trouble...
Even a 320 was lost about 4 years ago that way when the Gulf Air 320 smacked the water doing a lowlevel 360 to try and get back into a position to land, and that is an aicraft you CANT turn over on its back...
Cheers
Wino
This smells like a loss of controll for me as well. I already said Spatial disorientation, and that's what I am going with till more data arives, but a climbing turn over a black hole can be trouble...
Even a 320 was lost about 4 years ago that way when the Gulf Air 320 smacked the water doing a lowlevel 360 to try and get back into a position to land, and that is an aicraft you CANT turn over on its back...
Cheers
Wino
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Even a 320 was lost about 4 years ago that way when the Gulf Air 320 smacked the water doing a lowlevel 360 to try and get back into a position to land, and that is an aicraft you CANT turn over on its back...
strewth! 
Just a question regarding CVR and FDR. Aren't they supposed to have a location system installed? The 757 involved in the Carraibes had a similar system.
Why it takes so long to locate the recorders?
Rwy in Sight
Why it takes so long to locate the recorders?
Rwy in Sight
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Why it takes so long to locate the recorders?
Union Goon
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You also don't want to destroy any physical evidence while looking for your electronic evidence, so they aren't simply going to bring in a trawler till they have sent ROV's down to photograph the wreck because even the way it is positioned under 1000 feet of water might tell you something.
Furthermore, if the wreck is more or less intact (I doubt it) lifting 100,000 lbs of Aluminum is not an easy task, even if it is broken into large sections, getting the equiptment on site that can lift that much weight will take some time...
Patience. There is actually no rush to do this. The recorders are water tight. If they leaked (extremely unlikely) they are already ruined, if they haven't leaked they won't.
Often the desire to recover bodies quickly for the families interferes with the evidence for the crash investigation because the wreckage gets disturbed.
Cheers
Wino
Furthermore, if the wreck is more or less intact (I doubt it) lifting 100,000 lbs of Aluminum is not an easy task, even if it is broken into large sections, getting the equiptment on site that can lift that much weight will take some time...
Patience. There is actually no rush to do this. The recorders are water tight. If they leaked (extremely unlikely) they are already ruined, if they haven't leaked they won't.
Often the desire to recover bodies quickly for the families interferes with the evidence for the crash investigation because the wreckage gets disturbed.
Cheers
Wino
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From Airwise:
Quote - France said on Monday it attached little credence to a previously unknown Islamic group's claim to have brought down the plane. Egypt has ruled out an attack. unquote
More info re recovery of the recorders.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/01/1073382244.html
Quote - France said on Monday it attached little credence to a previously unknown Islamic group's claim to have brought down the plane. Egypt has ruled out an attack. unquote
More info re recovery of the recorders.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/01/1073382244.html
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Black Box technology
Is it true that a black box transmits a locator signal?
Has there ever been any talk of designing a Flight Data Recorder that transmits the stored data so that in accidents like this they wouldn't have to physically recover the FDR itself, just tune in a signal and get the data?
Weasil?
Has there ever been any talk of designing a Flight Data Recorder that transmits the stored data so that in accidents like this they wouldn't have to physically recover the FDR itself, just tune in a signal and get the data?
Weasil?
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The Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice recorder have an acoustic "pinger" or "underwater locator beacon" operating at 37.5 KHz with (if you are lucky) up to 30 day operation.
Presumably the French BEA (www.bea-fr.org) have already brought in equipment to locate the FDR and CVR.
Presumably the French BEA (www.bea-fr.org) have already brought in equipment to locate the FDR and CVR.
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Yes its a pinger signal.
TO download the entire data of the black box would be a different problem because you would be talking about an enourmous amount of data that would take a long time to transmit, assuming that anyone was ready to hear it. But presumably if you can hear the pinger you can recover the black box, so relax and have a little patience. These things take time. Reconstructing maintence record of this aircraft to determine whether or not it was in compliance with all service bulletins will take quite some time... (Its much harder when you can't just look at theplane, and instead have to verify part numbers etc from a stack of papers as tall as the tail fin)
Cheers
Wino
TO download the entire data of the black box would be a different problem because you would be talking about an enourmous amount of data that would take a long time to transmit, assuming that anyone was ready to hear it. But presumably if you can hear the pinger you can recover the black box, so relax and have a little patience. These things take time. Reconstructing maintence record of this aircraft to determine whether or not it was in compliance with all service bulletins will take quite some time... (Its much harder when you can't just look at theplane, and instead have to verify part numbers etc from a stack of papers as tall as the tail fin)
Cheers
Wino