Armed Sky Marshals on Some UK Flights

[Tripower455]

In the near future:- hit the Sky Marshall over the head with the fire extinguisher and take his. Chances of success - excellent.

I suggest that you try it, and let us know what the results are!

[con-pilot]

There was a successful case of a hijacking on a Boeing 747 being stopped due to an armed LEO onboard.

Wino you may be able to help me on this. I can’t remember all the details but the hijacking occurred in the 70s on a Pan Am 747 (I think). The aircraft was on a flight in Southeast Asia. Some guy armed with a weapon of some sort hijacked the aircraft and demanded that the captain land in Hanoi. There was an armed New York City police detective onboard, the captain got the detective’s gun and killed the hijacker.

The airplane landed in Saigon where the captain threw the body of the hijacker out of the aft door onto the ramp (a bit much if you ask me, but what the hell). I can still remember seeing the picture of the body lying under the tail of the airplane.

So having an armed LEO onboard stopped at least one hijacking. Why can’t it work again? You don’t need to have Air Marshals on every flight, just the threat of them being on any flight will help deter a hijacking.

As the people on the pro side of this argument have stated over and over again, it never hurts to have at least one more line of defense in your favor.

[Wino]

I can't remember that one exactly con-pilot but I have heard it talked about. I will look around for it in the Union data bases and get back to you on that.

I do remember that ElAL infact shot dead hijackers onboard one of their aircraft with skymarshals in the late 70s or early 80s I think. The question I have for Danny on that is "Was ELAL profiling yet?" The skymarshals initially on ELAL were jokingly referred to as seat 1b by the flight attendants. Of course they quickly wised up and became random seating.

Stafer,

I have flown cross country 5 times sitting next to an airmarshal (as deadheading crew I get to board first and often listen to the crew briefing so I can be of assistance if there is a problem in the cabin that might require a pilot's eyes, as the cockpit crew can no longer leave for any reason).

I have two points for you. First contrary to what you might think you will NOT be able to pick them out of a crowd. They are not clean cut guys with bad (cheap) haircuts in cheap polyester suits. Everyone of of them was quite different, and they sit randomly through the cabin, and they have a great line of bullsiht to feed you if you sit next to them and try and chat them up.

Now, having met the airmarshals before the flight and taken part in some of their briefings to the crews I have asked to see their weapon. I have seen it. Now even knowing where it is and how they store it, I have looked at them on a 4+ hour sector and even knowing where to look I never saw the slightest hint of a gun.

So any other good suggestions?

Danny, I agree with most of your suggestions, but the question I have for you is what about Aviation has EVER been done right or in anything other than on the cheap as a bandaid? Crew rest? Nope, Runways? Nope, Terminals? Nope, Security? Nope, Training? Nope, Aircraft certification? Nope... Aviation is still held together with the same chewing gum and bailing wire that the Wrights used. Just metaphorically now...

Cheers,
Wino

[cwatters]

Two thoughts on the SM proposal...

What a boring job it would be. Who would would want to spend their working lives riding in the back pretending to be a pax. After a few weeks I would be off looking for something more interesting to do.

Perhaps SM should be trained as paramedics as well - they would probably save many more lives if they had a dual role than as an SM alone.

[flaps to 60]

Have had armed guards on one or two of my flights and had no problems with it. In fact it was comforting to know that they were there especially when the No.1 every now and then lets us know about dodgy looking and oddly behaving passengers

Im sure it has been mentioned before (Cant be bothered to go through over 10 pages) but at the end of the day i'ts the Americans choice and if Balpa and associated L/H pailots are not going to agree then we might as well close down BA Virgin etc etc and save the terrorists the bother.

Why can the French the Germans etc etc have no problems and we have to kick off about it when its going to happen in anycase (If we want to keep our jobs).

If 9/11 had happened on this side of the pond then maybe just maybe UK opinions might be different.

Why also are Balpa talking about this this in such a public arena when prolonged public debate will only scare off more precious customers.

This industry is only just begining to get back on its feet and it seems every day the press and others tries to kill it off again.

[Donkey Duke]

Strafer,

You say these things because you are nervous and have never witnessed any of this before. That is understandable. That is not how it would play out. From what I know, everyone would have to obey their orders, and nobody could "sneak up" and bang him/her on the head. Not going to happen. You are making things up in your head because you do not like the idea. Do you think there aren't any current air marshals on US airline's transatlantic flights? No? Have any of them ditched in the Atlantic? If the UK airlines want to fly to the US, then they will comply. Good day!

[Wino]

Con Pilot, I think this is what you were thinking of...


Pan Am Hijaking in 1972
Janet Elliot

My father was Eugene Vaughn, a Pan Am captain that retired in 1979 after 38 years. He was hijacked in 1972 on a flight from Hong Kong to Saigon by a North Vietnamese sympathizer. The hijacker wanted my father to take the plane to Hanoi and my father flew it on to Saigon while having the cockpit secured by two U.S. Marine passengers. He also gave the on-board sky marshall his 357 Magnum gun.

After landing in Saigon, my father taxied the aircraft to a secured military area. After shutting down the aircraft systems, he then walked to the back of the plane and confronted the hijacker. The hijacker had taken a flight attendant hostage with a knife and a paper bag that he said had plastic explosives in it. My father approached the hijacker and then lunged on him pulling him to the ground. The Sky Marshall then came up and my father ordered the skymarshall to shoot the hijacker. The hijacker was shot 5 times in the chest. My father then got up, opened the rear door of the 747, picked up the dead hijacker's body and threw him on to the ramp.

My dad was a true hero for Pan Am, his passengers and crew. He was awarded the President's Award by Pan Am and also received many other civil and military commendations. He passed away from cancer in 1984. My mother, a former Pan Am stewardess, is still living in Fort Worth, Texas.

I grew up with Pan Am and now both my brother follow in his footsteps as airline pilots. I look so fondly at my charmed life as a daughter of a Pan Am captain.

Janet Elliott (Vaughn)


from this link http://www.panamdoc.com/advenstories/advenstor013.html


CWATTERS,

Shows excellent thinking on your part and infact mirrors the retention problem they are having in the skymarshal program, even though it represents a huge pay jump over previous assignments for most of the marshals...

Don't know about making them paramedics though... They spend an ungodly amount of time in training and recurrent now as it is...


Flaps to 60.
You are right. Similar problem with regular ALPA. Got much bigger problems that are costing lives all the time (Fatigue for example) but rather than talk about that, in a useless excersize to prove they are "relevent" BALPA will take up the losing side of this issue... ALPA often falls on its sword in a similar matter. There is only so much political capital that an organization has... SPend it wisely...

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

"The Sky Marshall then came up and my father ordered the skymarshall to shoot the hijacker. The hijacker was shot 5 times in the chest. My father then got up, opened the rear door of the 747, picked up the dead hijacker's body and threw him on to the ramp."


Nice to see such a measured response.

[Airbubba]

From the morning news:

Drunk woman allegedly attacks air marshal on Northwest flight

Terry Collins, Star Tribune

Published December 31, 2003 AIR31

A female passenger, who was apparently intoxicated, was arrested after she became disruptive and attempted to choke a federal air marshal on a flight from Pittsburgh to the Twin Cities on Tuesday night, authorities said.

The woman, in her 30s, became loud and obnoxious on Northwest Airlines Flight 1057, said Patrick Hogan, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission.

A marshal, who didn't identify himself, tried to calm her, said Transportation Security Administration spokeswoman Jennifer Marty. When that failed, Marty said, the marshal identified himself and placed her in handcuffs. During another exchange, she tried choking the marshal after complaining that her handcuffs were too tight, Hogan said.

The woman, who wasn't identified, later kicked the marshal and bit another law enforcement officer after she was escorted off the plane when it landed at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport about 8:30 p.m., Marty said.

Hogan said it appears that the woman had been drinking before the flight, and he wasn't sure if the woman continued to drink during the flight. The woman could face federal charges of assault or interfering with a flight crew, Hogan said.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4294780.html

[OFBSLF]

And do you really think that ONE sky marshal can adequately monitor and defeat half a dozen terrorists, spread through the cabin- all quite willing to die? Don't think so.

First, there will never be ONE sky marshall on a plane. They work in teams.

I strongly suspect that the sky marshalls goal will be to get to the front of the aircraft and defend the cockpit while the pilots land the aircraft. Attacks towards the sky marshalls will thus have to come up the aisles towards the marshalls. So, can 2 armed sky marshalls, positioned at the front of the aircraft, defeat 6 terrorists armed with contact weapons coming towards them up the aisles or over the seats? I suspect so. Quite easily in fact.

The only way for the terrorists to overpower the marshalls is to close with them in force. If the terrorists spread themselves out in the cabin, then the terrorists cannot concentrate their forces.

Regarding the chances of sky marshalls being disarmed, yes about 20% of police officers in the US who are murdered are murdered with their own guns. As we've discussed previously, marksmanship training for the average US police officer is poor. Similarly, the average US police officer is also poorly trained in handgun retention. For example, many US police officers will get a couple days of handgun retention training during their police academy but never have any retraining nor any qualification.

It is my understanding that the US sky marshalls have excellent marksmanship training. I'm sure they also have excellent training in handgun retention and close quarters combat. Trying to take a gun away from one of these guys would be likely be one step short of suicide.

There are plenty of handgun retention systems. I have been trained in the Lindell and Insights systems, but there are plenty of others. I'm sure the US sky marshalls are trained to a much higher standard than I have been.

[pod1]

who are you helping?

I am very surprised by how much conjecture there has been on this site about the use of sky marshals, I fully appreciate there will be some for and against this option and I agree that it is right to discuss these.
However, I do not understand why anyone should want to discuss tactics, how many there are, where they are, what training they have recieved etc etc.
My reason for saying this is that previously it has been suggested that terrorists have conducted much research in open source forums such as this, so I would suggest that technically you are assisting these people in the very things you are trying to protect.
If you are a captain, I am sure you will be informed, but to anyone else by all means discuss the right and wrongs of deploying sky marshals but leave the training and the tactics out of it.

[surely not]

So having got up to date with the postings I conclude the following:

1. The USA is entitled to issue the directive.
2. Travel to/from the USA must therefore be considered highly dangerous.
3. There are a lot of other beautiful countries in the world.
4. I shall avoid travelling to/from the USA whenever possible.
5. The USA economy will probably find a lot of Eurpoeans now deciding to go elsewhere.
6. Many of the contributors from the USA appear to loathe other nationalities, and consider them contemptuous
7. If just once, one of the gung ho USA contributors to this topic would admit that the USA doesn't have all the bright ideas I'd feel so much more trusting of their rhetoric. I'll not hold my breath waiting for this to happen.

[Scud-U-Like]

What a difference a day makes. Looks like BALPA and DFT/Home Office have had to yield to some extent:

Pilots Agree Deal on Air Marshals

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3359267.stm

[Wino]

So surely not, you want us to acknowledge that we don't have all the answers. Okay, YOU tell me what the answer is, and you have to be able to implement this. Pretending 9/11 never happened is not one of the available choices.

This isn't a knee jerk reaction. This has been evolving over a period of years. We did reasonably request that everyone tighten up security, yet the evidence is that at Heathrow it has not. (several major heists airside since 9/11, A BA aircraft landing with a body in the wheel well today etc) And actually security can NEVER be perfect, that is a pipe dream.

So what would you propose actually be DONE about it? Come on, you just said you had the answer.

As to tourist's avoiding America? They may, but the evidence actually points the other say. The dollar is such a bargain right now that tourists are flocking to the USA. And monitoring pax behavior, safety is actually not an issue with passengers. Traffic on an airline doesn't really dip after it suffers a crash, even where the airline is found clearly negligable (valujet). Infact, the only pax that don't come back for Frequent flier miles or a fare sale are the ones that died in the accident. Sad but true.

The problem I have is other than Danny, no one offers a solution. They just bury their heads in the sand.

I have to wonder what kind of pilot would choose to emulate a flightless bird...

As to your point 5. The only people I see whinging about this are some British Pilots. Even Grandpa and I see eye to eye on this (sorry gramps meant to acknowledge that earlier ).


SCUD,

Everything there except regular contact with captain during the flight is the same as in the US. Could have been done without all the chest thumping.

However, that regular contact during the flight seams quite stupid as it might make it possible to eyeball skymarshals (maybe they will adopt a better policy for it than I can quickly imagine, but it seams quite foolish.) Maybe they mean regular contact incase the skymarshal has acted which would be sensible and inline with US practise. Why a skymarshal on a quiet flight with nothing happening should keep reporting to the cockpit is beyond me. This smells of a "Captain's authority comittee" which when formed usually do far more harm then good... Got to keep puffing up the captain old chaps...

However, I find BALPA's chest thumping on this issue to be ludicrious when more important things are out there. They also claim to represent the majority of pilots around that world and that is at best a stretch if not an outright lie...(IALPA, (international, not Irish) has taken the opposit stand.


Cheers
Wino

[ott]

I think this may be the solution.
It is not classed as a fire arm. The person fired at are taken out instantly. It is proven that those on drugs feel little or no pain when shot by traditional fire arms where as this method WILL take them out. Does not kill and does not penetrate the aircraft skin. www.taser.com

[con-pilot]

Yes Wino, that was the incident I was thinking of, thanks!

[pod1]

Taser

Excellent idea if you guaruntee that there is only ONE criminal/Terrorist and that he or she is less than 21ft away!!!

[Scud-U-Like]

Wino

I have to agree, there does appear to be an element of "my train set" syndrome about BALPA's bellyaching on this matter. If the sort of capt/air marshal contact evisaged was limited to security incidents ( such as that used by El Al, where a secret signal from the marshal alerts the pilot to send the plane into a dive, with the aim of throwing hijackers off balance) that would be very useful. But I suspect this agreement will just lead to a bit of regular cap doffing by air marshal to capt. That said, there's no reason why this couldn't be done by remote signal, without the marshal giving anything away to pax.

Incidentally, as a Brit who thinks the States are a great place to visit, I am more than happy with the idea of air marshals. I know a lot of Brits who feel the same.

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

Just how will the marshal(s) be communicating with the captain in his locked, armoured flight deck then????

[West Coast]

Surely not
The line for the ride at Disneyland will be one shorter, thanks and bye bye.

Danny
No bones, thats okay. I'll give you credit, you did at least censor your moderators also.

Stafer
You would be dead before you came close to the marshall with it. There are only so many extinguishers, and it would be awfullly strange to see some one not crew with it.

Memetic
If you observed a pax with a weapon your responsibility is to notify the crew. You think your role is greater than it is. It is the crews job to maintain security. You tell them the guy next to you has a weapon, they will likely tell you to keep it to yourself or direct you otherwise. It ISN'T your job to be asking for ID. You might very well compromise the person by these actions. Like it or not when you get on the plane you give up a lot. Others are responsible for your safety, be it flight safety or your well being in the cabin.
To answer your question, yes it is the crews responsibility to verify credentials of armed individuals on the aircraft. You were also concerned about fake ID'S. Whgo would be better at picking out a fake ID, one who sees them on a regular basis or a passenger.

Bottom line, the crew is responsible for your safety, your job is to do what the crew says. If they say to sit down and be quiet, you are obligated to do so. If they say to hop on the guy with the gun ( or fire extinguisher) then do it. They are better informed and trained in the matter than a nervious pax taking matters into their own hands.

Frankfurt cowboy
The same way the flight attendants do now, with the interphone to the cockpit. As a last resort they can talk at a slightly elevated tone next to the door and it can be heard in the cockpit. Especially if the FO is right behind it with the ax. The door is (hopefully) bulletproof, not sound proof