Easy slips in AMS ?
Join Date: Jul 2003
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First of all I do feel sorry for the guys as this could hapen to any of us and it is easy to sit here and speculate the reasons but I am sure that all would agree no profesional sets out on the day to go and deliberately have an incident. These things do happen, and they happen to the best of pilots and they happen to the average, and they sometimes happen to the worst. If one reads through the CHIRP report throughout the year it is evident that on a yearly basis the majors have more incidents than the low cost sector combined. People's perception is such that they will always be bashing the lowcost carriers and this is a great example of it. It is also very interesting how an EJ incident automaticaly brings out the RYR bashing about RYR taxiing.
Just for the info mjkblackdog[/B] Mr Boeing does not say 20 Knots for straight taxiing he says 30 Knots. This information is in the 737NG Flight Crew Training Manual Revision 1 dated October 31 2001. It is incorporated again in Revision 2 of the same manual.
Hope this ends well for the crew involved as we are all on the same side.
JP
Just for the info mjkblackdog[/B] Mr Boeing does not say 20 Knots for straight taxiing he says 30 Knots. This information is in the 737NG Flight Crew Training Manual Revision 1 dated October 31 2001. It is incorporated again in Revision 2 of the same manual.
Hope this ends well for the crew involved as we are all on the same side.
JP
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Hmm, I know it's almost X-mas, but I find it very strange that a lot of people seem to have such a forgiving attitude.
What if this would have happened to, say Ryanair or anther non-UK airline? Would people still adopt the same "we are all human and accidents happens, so give the crew a break" attitude or would the pilots involved be hung from the highest tree?
What if this would have happened to, say Ryanair or anther non-UK airline? Would people still adopt the same "we are all human and accidents happens, so give the crew a break" attitude or would the pilots involved be hung from the highest tree?
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I've seen enough flag carriers taxi onto stand with excess speed to know the common perspective is more to do with prejudice than fact, but then again, I have been guilty of listining to said rumours too. Its just hard to assume that tight schedules/turnarounds, fatigue and apparent management pressures do not have some undesirable effects on some crew's performance. Rather than criticise those that are affected, I will commend those that keep it safe regardless.
This is one more crew whose hightened wisdom will make them less likely to have a taxiing accident and more likely to share said wisdom. Wouldn't that be an asset to any company?
May I be so bold as to suggest to pilots that when their CG is close to the aft limit, nosewheel traction in marginal conditions may be that little bit less than expected.
This is one more crew whose hightened wisdom will make them less likely to have a taxiing accident and more likely to share said wisdom. Wouldn't that be an asset to any company?
May I be so bold as to suggest to pilots that when their CG is close to the aft limit, nosewheel traction in marginal conditions may be that little bit less than expected.
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Why is it that if anything happens at a LoCo, everyone immediately starts making accusations about fatigue and taxi speeds with absolutely nothing to support their comments whatsoever? This could just as easily have happened to a 'traditional' airline......what would the comments have been then?
No doubt the official investigation will get to the truth!
No doubt the official investigation will get to the truth!
Guest
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In trim
Maybe the loco's are asking for it by their overtly aggressive attitude in attacking other carriers on price, when often this isn't true either.
Of course, the flight deck team doesn't make these kind of decisions, but they are very visible when things go wrong and thus an easy target (no pun intended.)
A lot of stick has been handed out by loco's over the past few years and if you give it, you must also be able to take it.
As you say, the official report should be objective and dispassionate.
Maybe the loco's are asking for it by their overtly aggressive attitude in attacking other carriers on price, when often this isn't true either.
Of course, the flight deck team doesn't make these kind of decisions, but they are very visible when things go wrong and thus an easy target (no pun intended.)
A lot of stick has been handed out by loco's over the past few years and if you give it, you must also be able to take it.
As you say, the official report should be objective and dispassionate.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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The incident is under investigation and the captain is very likely to be totally exonerated. He is of course represented by Balpa and will under any circumstance recieve the full support of that association and his fellow members.
The First Officer is not so covered and unfortunately will be at the mercy of whatever the employer decides to throw at him.
Insurance is expensive., but not so much as the consequences of not having it!
The First Officer is not so covered and unfortunately will be at the mercy of whatever the employer decides to throw at him.
Insurance is expensive., but not so much as the consequences of not having it!
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In Trim and nosig
I don't believe taxiing too fast is normally a problem at Easy but the question of fatigue most certainly is!
Fatigue, morale and pressures real or perceived all take their toll on the safe operation of aircraft.
I have no idea what caused this particular incident but I'm really sick of your continued denial of certain very real safety issues which exist and continue to exist while managers are in denial.
Don't get smug or complacent, you said it yourself :-
' No doubt the official investigation will get to the truth! '
I don't believe taxiing too fast is normally a problem at Easy but the question of fatigue most certainly is!
Fatigue, morale and pressures real or perceived all take their toll on the safe operation of aircraft.
I have no idea what caused this particular incident but I'm really sick of your continued denial of certain very real safety issues which exist and continue to exist while managers are in denial.
Don't get smug or complacent, you said it yourself :-
' No doubt the official investigation will get to the truth! '
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I was at AMS at the time. Patches of black ice were indeed to be found on the taxiways and the ATIS carried the usual warnings.
Doesn't really matter what reasonable speed you are doing if you happen to try to turn on a patch of black ice you aren't going to. Nobodies fault - just unlucky.
EZY taxi limits are 25kts and this is monitiored at all times by the computer and a 3kt exceedence results in tripping the safety flagging system. I don't think you'll find EZY have a taxi speed problem - in fact they are frequently frustrating to be behind as they crawl along like geriatric farmers on a Sunday I find. Certainly the case at Gatwick.
Regards,
Doesn't really matter what reasonable speed you are doing if you happen to try to turn on a patch of black ice you aren't going to. Nobodies fault - just unlucky.
EZY taxi limits are 25kts and this is monitiored at all times by the computer and a 3kt exceedence results in tripping the safety flagging system. I don't think you'll find EZY have a taxi speed problem - in fact they are frequently frustrating to be behind as they crawl along like geriatric farmers on a Sunday I find. Certainly the case at Gatwick.
Regards,
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I landed in another orange flying machine on 06 shortly before the unfortunate incident , with the usual traffic close behind, fully aware of the need to quickly vacate. At about 40kts trying to make S4 the aircraft started to slide; my only option was to straighten and slow further and take the next turn.
The ATIS was giving slippery spots on taxiways and aprons.
My heart goes out to the crew of JM.
There but for the grace of god.........
The ATIS was giving slippery spots on taxiways and aprons.
My heart goes out to the crew of JM.
There but for the grace of god.........
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Returning to the subject, people may be interested to know that the official Airbus A320 policy on taxi speeds is that you let the aircraft run up to 30kts uncorrected and then apply the brakes to return it to 10 kts before letting it run up to 30kts again. Strange no doubt but that is the party line. Obviously you make allowances for corners etc, but I find myself agreeing with the majority of contributors here - there but for the grace of God go I.
Also I simply do not accept that this is to do with low cost operations. No one says that the spate of drinking and flying incidents over the last couple of years is a 'national carrier' issue, but if it happened to easyJet or Ryanair then everyone would say it was clearly a result of the terrible stress theses guys/gals are living under. At the end of the day I personally believe that so much of all this stuff boils down to the individual sat behind the controls in the cockpit regardless of which company he/she works for. Or is that too simplistic?
Also I simply do not accept that this is to do with low cost operations. No one says that the spate of drinking and flying incidents over the last couple of years is a 'national carrier' issue, but if it happened to easyJet or Ryanair then everyone would say it was clearly a result of the terrible stress theses guys/gals are living under. At the end of the day I personally believe that so much of all this stuff boils down to the individual sat behind the controls in the cockpit regardless of which company he/she works for. Or is that too simplistic?
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Norm,
Airbus mentions the 30 kts as a "maximum normal" speed, surely not as a "recommended" taxy speed!
From the FCOM (3.3.10)
"... the normal maximum taxi speed should be 30 knots in a straight line, 10 knots for a sharp turn..."
And quoting from FCOM (2.4.10) "Fluid Contaminated Runways"
Avoid high thrust settings.
When taxiing on slippery surfaces, stay well behind preceding aircraft.
Taxi at low speed. Note that antiskid does not operate at low taxi speeds.
On slippery taxiways during turns with large nose wheel steering angles, noise and vibration may result from the wheels slipping sideways. Keep speed as low as possible to make a smooth turn with minimum radius. Differential power may be needed.
--
As I see it, the responsibility is ours and finger-pointing to the manufacturer's procedures will do little to help.
Airbus mentions the 30 kts as a "maximum normal" speed, surely not as a "recommended" taxy speed!
From the FCOM (3.3.10)
"... the normal maximum taxi speed should be 30 knots in a straight line, 10 knots for a sharp turn..."
And quoting from FCOM (2.4.10) "Fluid Contaminated Runways"
Avoid high thrust settings.
When taxiing on slippery surfaces, stay well behind preceding aircraft.
Taxi at low speed. Note that antiskid does not operate at low taxi speeds.
On slippery taxiways during turns with large nose wheel steering angles, noise and vibration may result from the wheels slipping sideways. Keep speed as low as possible to make a smooth turn with minimum radius. Differential power may be needed.
--
As I see it, the responsibility is ours and finger-pointing to the manufacturer's procedures will do little to help.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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You don't need high speed or a tight turn when there is black ice and it seems the taxyway was supposed to be closed but still lighted and not mentioned as closed on ATIS or by the ATC who gave the taxi clearance (other taxyways were deiced but not the stretch in question)
It seems the following a/c was warned by the tower (after the incident). Firefighters could hardly stand up when they went to assist. No notam or atis warning at the time though shortly *after* a car tested braking action on the Polderbaan and it was broadcast as only medium.
there but for the grace of God indeed .....
It seems the following a/c was warned by the tower (after the incident). Firefighters could hardly stand up when they went to assist. No notam or atis warning at the time though shortly *after* a car tested braking action on the Polderbaan and it was broadcast as only medium.
there but for the grace of God indeed .....
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As a post script to this sad incident, I have heard that the Captain has since been exhonerated and returned to flying duties, since the black ice was not visible, nor notamed and even the fire crews could not remain on their feet.
Also hear was that the aircraft is a total loss owing to damage to the spar.
Could someone in the know advise whether this is the case? Potentially very expensive for the AMS airport authorities I reckon? I am glad that the Captain would appear not to have been hauled over the coals. ...Grace of God springs to mind.
Also hear was that the aircraft is a total loss owing to damage to the spar.
Could someone in the know advise whether this is the case? Potentially very expensive for the AMS airport authorities I reckon? I am glad that the Captain would appear not to have been hauled over the coals. ...Grace of God springs to mind.
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The Captain was cleared simply because he did nothing wrong at all.
Taxi speed 6 knots.
There is significant damage, worse than it appears in the photos, but the final assessment, and indeed who pays, has not yet been made.
Taxi speed 6 knots.
There is significant damage, worse than it appears in the photos, but the final assessment, and indeed who pays, has not yet been made.
FX Guru
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As mere SLF, I'm astounded that at a taxy speed of six knots a lamp-post can total a jet.
How can this happen? What vital area was damaged that has caused this aircraft to be written off?
Apologies if this sounds dumb.
How can this happen? What vital area was damaged that has caused this aircraft to be written off?
Apologies if this sounds dumb.