Virgin Pilot held on Drink allegations
I assume the pilot was tested, and that the end result will not rely on what somebody thought they smelled.
Still, however it turns out, you have a bunch of pax heading out or home for the holidays who were stranded at the airport. They won't be happy in any case, and they will remember being stranded even if they do not know if the pilot was guilty or not.
Still, however it turns out, you have a bunch of pax heading out or home for the holidays who were stranded at the airport. They won't be happy in any case, and they will remember being stranded even if they do not know if the pilot was guilty or not.
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To clear up some of the generalizations seen on this thread I would like to add a little.
First lets hope he doesn't prove positive, although if they cancelled the flight it seems cut and dried as a breath test would have cleared him quickly.
The fact that he got past the screeners is the same as the America West guys in Miami and that is that they must be seen with the intention of flying before they can be stopped. It is possible for a crew, that are suspected of being over the top, to sit in the cabin, or wait at the gate, and say we havn't been drinking for 8hrs before attempting to get in the front seats. Yes, I know they would catch hell for delaying the flight but they just might get away with the police action.
Another point to remember is that at least two pilots have been accused by the screeners at Dulles in the past few weeks and they proved to be completely sober. One of those was accused 4 hours after he had passed security and had a pissing contest with a screener due to the crew having to go through the passenger line as there were not enough screeners to run the employee line.
These people are employed by the TSA and seem to be untouchable.
Lets hope this case works out OK but I have just heard his name in the TV news and he had been charged so it is not looking good.
First lets hope he doesn't prove positive, although if they cancelled the flight it seems cut and dried as a breath test would have cleared him quickly.
The fact that he got past the screeners is the same as the America West guys in Miami and that is that they must be seen with the intention of flying before they can be stopped. It is possible for a crew, that are suspected of being over the top, to sit in the cabin, or wait at the gate, and say we havn't been drinking for 8hrs before attempting to get in the front seats. Yes, I know they would catch hell for delaying the flight but they just might get away with the police action.
Another point to remember is that at least two pilots have been accused by the screeners at Dulles in the past few weeks and they proved to be completely sober. One of those was accused 4 hours after he had passed security and had a pissing contest with a screener due to the crew having to go through the passenger line as there were not enough screeners to run the employee line.
These people are employed by the TSA and seem to be untouchable.
Lets hope this case works out OK but I have just heard his name in the TV news and he had been charged so it is not looking good.
Title? What title?
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PPL making a comment here (sorry)
There have been a lot of comments about the alcohol 'policy' but may I just mention that zero tolerance of alcohol (or other chemical entertainments), is now normal in some UK organisations . I am currently on assignment as a consultant at Network Rail, and it is hammered into you from the day you walk into the place that this policy not only applies to people who get close to trains/signals etc., but to the tea boy, the computer jockey and the window cleaner. And, they do random tests ( I heard of 3 in London last week).
I hope like hell this turns out to be nothing more than a mistake because it seems to me that here is a guy(?) at the top of his game who has just booked himself a quick exit from a very good career. If he has turned up, stinking of booze for a flight at (7pm ish), he has either had a bender and a half the night before or has blatently disreguarded rules and common sense in the hours predeeding the flight.
There have been a lot of comments about the alcohol 'policy' but may I just mention that zero tolerance of alcohol (or other chemical entertainments), is now normal in some UK organisations . I am currently on assignment as a consultant at Network Rail, and it is hammered into you from the day you walk into the place that this policy not only applies to people who get close to trains/signals etc., but to the tea boy, the computer jockey and the window cleaner. And, they do random tests ( I heard of 3 in London last week).
I hope like hell this turns out to be nothing more than a mistake because it seems to me that here is a guy(?) at the top of his game who has just booked himself a quick exit from a very good career. If he has turned up, stinking of booze for a flight at (7pm ish), he has either had a bender and a half the night before or has blatently disreguarded rules and common sense in the hours predeeding the flight.
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Rehab for a couple of drinks....... now I know it's time to retire!
Interesting that one report says the pilot was removed from the flightdeck BEFORE pax were boarded, but the interviews on SKY with some of the pax had them talking about how they were on board when the pilot was removed.
Someone's got it very wrong...................
I too have heard from, a very good source, that the BA skipper from the incident a few weeks ago, has official paperwork to say that he was indeed free from alcohol.
He has applied for another job somewhere else..........let's hope he's treated fairly.
If it had been me, I would want the certificate (or whatever) on the front page of every newspaper in the land!
Interesting that one report says the pilot was removed from the flightdeck BEFORE pax were boarded, but the interviews on SKY with some of the pax had them talking about how they were on board when the pilot was removed.
Someone's got it very wrong...................
I too have heard from, a very good source, that the BA skipper from the incident a few weeks ago, has official paperwork to say that he was indeed free from alcohol.
He has applied for another job somewhere else..........let's hope he's treated fairly.
If it had been me, I would want the certificate (or whatever) on the front page of every newspaper in the land!
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>>I too have heard from, a very good source, that the BA skipper from the incident a few weeks ago, has official paperwork to say that he was indeed free from alcohol.
He has applied for another job somewhere else..........let's hope he's treated fairly.<<
If he was really innocent, why wasn't he reinstated with full back pay and seniority? Doesn't BA have a union?
He has applied for another job somewhere else..........let's hope he's treated fairly.<<
If he was really innocent, why wasn't he reinstated with full back pay and seniority? Doesn't BA have a union?
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The "smell" of alcohol or even a positive breath test do not necessarily mean the individual has been drinking.
Top marks for those towing the do not fly drunk line here but nowhere has it been established to be more than a suspicion.
Could be he had just used a popular brand of mouthwash.
Happens all the time. Makes headlines.
Matter is resolved. No headlines.
Wonder why....
Top marks for those towing the do not fly drunk line here but nowhere has it been established to be more than a suspicion.
Could be he had just used a popular brand of mouthwash.
Happens all the time. Makes headlines.
Matter is resolved. No headlines.
Wonder why....
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>>Could be he had just used a popular brand of mouthwash.
Happens all the time. Makes headlines.<<
Don't know if it happens all the time but here's an earlier case involving breath mints:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=79661
Also, here's another case where it appears the test was negative:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=69849
Happens all the time. Makes headlines.<<
Don't know if it happens all the time but here's an earlier case involving breath mints:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=79661
Also, here's another case where it appears the test was negative:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=69849
Last edited by Airbubba; 21st Dec 2003 at 11:51.
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bbc breakfast news have just reported the story again but this time linked it with the 'ba pilots accused of drinking in oslo'.
I read on this forum that the ba crew were clear ? is that definate ? someone should tell the bbc if it is .
7-0am news - sad i know !
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w.r.t. If he was really innocent, why wasn't he reinstated with full back pay and seniority ?
Probably because he has brought the company name into 'disrepute' - regardless of whether or not he was under the influence of anything.
More often than not if you do anything which plasters your employers name across the 'news' you will very likely get the boot, either that or be invited to 'fall on your sword' - albeit that the end result is the same, reputation in tatters, and a strong likelihood of no job thereafter.
Probably because he has brought the company name into 'disrepute' - regardless of whether or not he was under the influence of anything.
More often than not if you do anything which plasters your employers name across the 'news' you will very likely get the boot, either that or be invited to 'fall on your sword' - albeit that the end result is the same, reputation in tatters, and a strong likelihood of no job thereafter.
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From the Sunday Washington Post, bowdlerized for PPRuNe:
Pilot Pulled From Dulles Flight Faces Charge Over Drinking
By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 21, 2003; Page A14
A Virgin Atlantic Airways pilot who was removed from a flight at Dulles International Airport was charged yesterday with operating an aircraft under the influence of alcohol and ordered to appear in Loudoun County District Court tomorrow.
[redacted], 55, was taken to the Loudoun County Adult Detention Center in Leesburg just before midnight Friday, about five hours after he was to fly a Boeing 747 with almost 400 passengers to London, authorities said. Flight VS022 was canceled before passengers boarded, and another pilot was to fly them across the Atlantic last night.
[redacted], a U.S. citizen based in Britain who has worked for Virgin for 14 years, was suspended immediately by the airline and faces up to five years in prison if convicted of the felony charge. The Federal Aviation Administration said it would conduct a civil investigation that could cost [redacted] his pilot's license.
Federal regulations prohibit consumption of alcohol within eight hours of flying and prohibit the pilot from having a blood-alcohol level above 0.04. It was unclear yesterday where and when [redacted] had been drinking and what his blood-alcohol level was. A person familiar with the case said [redacted] had piloted a flight from London to Dulles that arrived Thursday night and had spent the next 24 hours here, staying at a hotel in the D.C. area.
"We're shocked and surprised," said John Riordan, a Virgin Atlantic spokesman. "This pilot has an unblemished record, and it's very out of character for him."
Riordan said the airline put all 383 passengers up at hotels and gave each a voucher for a free flight anywhere Virgin flies. Virgin CEO Sir Richard Branson wrote a letter of apology that was to be given to each passenger on the replacement flight to London last night.
The incident spotlighted what some airline safety experts say could be a growing problem in the industry. There have been at least five cases of pilots being removed from commercial aircraft in the United States for drinking in the past 17 months and additional examples overseas, said Barry Sweedler, the former head of the National Transportation Safety Board's Office of Safety Recommendations. He said it was unclear whether the numbers were increasing or whether more pilots were simply being caught by intensified security since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
"It's not a major aviation safety issue, but it is a troubling one," said Sweedler, who now edits an aviation safety newsletter. "This is sort of a wake-up call to the industry. And the Dulles incident is very serious. He was very close to flying that plane."
William Shumann, an FAA spokesman, said the agency "obviously is treating this very, very seriously." But he noted that there were more than 60,000 licensed pilots in the United States. "If you have a few cases of pilots who are, if you will, flying drunk, that's a very small number."
If the FAA determines that [redacted] violated U.S. air regulations, he could lose his pilot's license if that license were issued in the United States, Shumann said. If [redacted] has a British license, the FAA would alert British authorities and leave any action up to them. Virgin Atlantic could not say yesterday what type of license [redacted] holds.
To obtain a U.S. pilot's license, [redacted] would have had to pass a medical regimen that includes physical exams every six months -- co-pilots get them only once a year -- and random drug and alcohol testing.
Law enforcement officials said the incident began when someone at the airport smelled alcohol on [redacted]. It was unclear whether a screener noticed the smell or whether it was picked up when [redacted] was near the ticket counter area.
The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police Department was contacted and notified Virgin Atlantic. Airline officials boarded the plane and spoke to [redacted] in the cockpit before summoning airport police, who escorted him off, said Tara Hamilton, a spokeswoman for the authority. She said [redacted] was cooperative when taken off the plane.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Dec20.html
Pilot Pulled From Dulles Flight Faces Charge Over Drinking
By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 21, 2003; Page A14
A Virgin Atlantic Airways pilot who was removed from a flight at Dulles International Airport was charged yesterday with operating an aircraft under the influence of alcohol and ordered to appear in Loudoun County District Court tomorrow.
[redacted], 55, was taken to the Loudoun County Adult Detention Center in Leesburg just before midnight Friday, about five hours after he was to fly a Boeing 747 with almost 400 passengers to London, authorities said. Flight VS022 was canceled before passengers boarded, and another pilot was to fly them across the Atlantic last night.
[redacted], a U.S. citizen based in Britain who has worked for Virgin for 14 years, was suspended immediately by the airline and faces up to five years in prison if convicted of the felony charge. The Federal Aviation Administration said it would conduct a civil investigation that could cost [redacted] his pilot's license.
Federal regulations prohibit consumption of alcohol within eight hours of flying and prohibit the pilot from having a blood-alcohol level above 0.04. It was unclear yesterday where and when [redacted] had been drinking and what his blood-alcohol level was. A person familiar with the case said [redacted] had piloted a flight from London to Dulles that arrived Thursday night and had spent the next 24 hours here, staying at a hotel in the D.C. area.
"We're shocked and surprised," said John Riordan, a Virgin Atlantic spokesman. "This pilot has an unblemished record, and it's very out of character for him."
Riordan said the airline put all 383 passengers up at hotels and gave each a voucher for a free flight anywhere Virgin flies. Virgin CEO Sir Richard Branson wrote a letter of apology that was to be given to each passenger on the replacement flight to London last night.
The incident spotlighted what some airline safety experts say could be a growing problem in the industry. There have been at least five cases of pilots being removed from commercial aircraft in the United States for drinking in the past 17 months and additional examples overseas, said Barry Sweedler, the former head of the National Transportation Safety Board's Office of Safety Recommendations. He said it was unclear whether the numbers were increasing or whether more pilots were simply being caught by intensified security since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
"It's not a major aviation safety issue, but it is a troubling one," said Sweedler, who now edits an aviation safety newsletter. "This is sort of a wake-up call to the industry. And the Dulles incident is very serious. He was very close to flying that plane."
William Shumann, an FAA spokesman, said the agency "obviously is treating this very, very seriously." But he noted that there were more than 60,000 licensed pilots in the United States. "If you have a few cases of pilots who are, if you will, flying drunk, that's a very small number."
If the FAA determines that [redacted] violated U.S. air regulations, he could lose his pilot's license if that license were issued in the United States, Shumann said. If [redacted] has a British license, the FAA would alert British authorities and leave any action up to them. Virgin Atlantic could not say yesterday what type of license [redacted] holds.
To obtain a U.S. pilot's license, [redacted] would have had to pass a medical regimen that includes physical exams every six months -- co-pilots get them only once a year -- and random drug and alcohol testing.
Law enforcement officials said the incident began when someone at the airport smelled alcohol on [redacted]. It was unclear whether a screener noticed the smell or whether it was picked up when [redacted] was near the ticket counter area.
The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police Department was contacted and notified Virgin Atlantic. Airline officials boarded the plane and spoke to [redacted] in the cockpit before summoning airport police, who escorted him off, said Tara Hamilton, a spokeswoman for the authority. She said [redacted] was cooperative when taken off the plane.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Dec20.html
Firstly no comment on this particular case since innocent until proved guilty and as far as the press are concerned I stopped buying/reading the newspapers over six months ago and do not watch the TV or listen to radio news!
I am now employed in the Railway Industry (because I cannot currently get a job in aviation but that is another story). Right from the outset at our induction much education and stress was placed on the Drugs/Drinks Rules and that if anyone was caught we would be offered the door. I can expect to be randomly checked at ANY time and checks are automatic following any incident or accident.
I cannot think of a reason why aviation should be excluded from this type of check/control. This would, of course, include all involved - flight crew, Air Traffic, Ground Staff etc. If it's good for other transport industries why cannot aviation be the same.
I am NOT saying that there is a culture of alcohol abuse in aviation - my personal experience is that aircrew are very sensible and obey the rules but in the current media frenzy pilots have to be seen as whiter than white. Also, as has been said above, there are other issues which are far more pressing from a flight safety point of view, fatigue FTL etc.
Finally, employers should be more proactive about teaching pilots stress management techniques and also providing recreational facilities whilst down route - such things as free membership of the local health club come to mind. I suppose the beancounters would baulk at such a crazy suggestion but they would, wouldn't they?
I am now employed in the Railway Industry (because I cannot currently get a job in aviation but that is another story). Right from the outset at our induction much education and stress was placed on the Drugs/Drinks Rules and that if anyone was caught we would be offered the door. I can expect to be randomly checked at ANY time and checks are automatic following any incident or accident.
I cannot think of a reason why aviation should be excluded from this type of check/control. This would, of course, include all involved - flight crew, Air Traffic, Ground Staff etc. If it's good for other transport industries why cannot aviation be the same.
I am NOT saying that there is a culture of alcohol abuse in aviation - my personal experience is that aircrew are very sensible and obey the rules but in the current media frenzy pilots have to be seen as whiter than white. Also, as has been said above, there are other issues which are far more pressing from a flight safety point of view, fatigue FTL etc.
Finally, employers should be more proactive about teaching pilots stress management techniques and also providing recreational facilities whilst down route - such things as free membership of the local health club come to mind. I suppose the beancounters would baulk at such a crazy suggestion but they would, wouldn't they?
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Airbubba
He wasn't reinstated because he wasn't sacked!
He resigned.....big dfference.
Interesting potential headline though
"pilot brings airline into disrepute because he didn't do anything wrong but we had assisted in splashing allegations all over the media"
Give me strength!
He wasn't reinstated because he wasn't sacked!
He resigned.....big dfference.
Interesting potential headline though
"pilot brings airline into disrepute because he didn't do anything wrong but we had assisted in splashing allegations all over the media"
Give me strength!
The Reverend
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In a motor accident, both drivers are breathalysed as a matter of routine. Has anybody bothered to breathalyse the accuser (security screener) in this incident?
The Reverend
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Rumour has it that the pilot tested negative, in which case the prosecutor has lost his case. Perhaps the security bod smelt his own breath and made a false judgement?
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Alchool vs Fatigue and mental aberration
Alcohol vs Fatigue and mental aberration
Drunkenness and legal alcohol limit are not the same thing: it is totally wrong and immoral to use the term "drunkenness" for any case of traces of alcohol in the blood.
Knowing well the typology and mental capabilities of the US security screeners employed at US airports I seriously doubt that they could be as impartial and professional as a standard average European police officer.
Small traces of alcohol in the blood does not mean "drunkenness" as driving at 31mph in a 30mph limit area does not mean speeding.
Potentially if society would decide tomorrow to introduce a 10mph speed limit all over the country we would all be speeding. Suddenly we would all be breaking the law: similar logic could apply to the alcohol limits.
Introducing "zero level" policies in general does not help unless we decide all together within our society that we need to reach a "zero risk"society: this would mean for example the introduction of a 10mph speed limit all over Europe. Of course this would generate fantastic statistical figures for our governors with road related accidents and deaths close to the zero level. Then why shall we drive cars if we can drive at a maximum speed of 10mph? It would be a social aberration.
Alcohol zero limit is a good idea in terms of statistical trends and official figures but in reality does not bring any practical benefit to the safety of flying, especially when other major factors, which cannot be measured, are never taken into account, eg fatigue.
Unfortunately if we continue to reduce all "social risks" through zero level policies , our societies will soon end up without citizens, as all of us will be detained in a jail, either because we will be all speeding in a 5mph road or because we would be driving or flying
with a 0.000000001% of alcohol in our blood when the limit would be clearly set at 0.0%.
Very sad.
There should be a reasonable limit that would really affect performances, and not a ridiculous 0.0000....something% when other major immeasurable factors are not even mentioned (fatigue).
Honestly, I think this social trend is all terribly wrong and I feel sorry for anybody caught with minimum traces of anything in their lives who has suddenly seen his face on Sky News just above the title "Drunk Pilot"!...the aberration is already here!
Drunkenness and legal alcohol limit are not the same thing: it is totally wrong and immoral to use the term "drunkenness" for any case of traces of alcohol in the blood.
Knowing well the typology and mental capabilities of the US security screeners employed at US airports I seriously doubt that they could be as impartial and professional as a standard average European police officer.
Small traces of alcohol in the blood does not mean "drunkenness" as driving at 31mph in a 30mph limit area does not mean speeding.
Potentially if society would decide tomorrow to introduce a 10mph speed limit all over the country we would all be speeding. Suddenly we would all be breaking the law: similar logic could apply to the alcohol limits.
Introducing "zero level" policies in general does not help unless we decide all together within our society that we need to reach a "zero risk"society: this would mean for example the introduction of a 10mph speed limit all over Europe. Of course this would generate fantastic statistical figures for our governors with road related accidents and deaths close to the zero level. Then why shall we drive cars if we can drive at a maximum speed of 10mph? It would be a social aberration.
Alcohol zero limit is a good idea in terms of statistical trends and official figures but in reality does not bring any practical benefit to the safety of flying, especially when other major factors, which cannot be measured, are never taken into account, eg fatigue.
Unfortunately if we continue to reduce all "social risks" through zero level policies , our societies will soon end up without citizens, as all of us will be detained in a jail, either because we will be all speeding in a 5mph road or because we would be driving or flying
with a 0.000000001% of alcohol in our blood when the limit would be clearly set at 0.0%.
Very sad.
There should be a reasonable limit that would really affect performances, and not a ridiculous 0.0000....something% when other major immeasurable factors are not even mentioned (fatigue).
Honestly, I think this social trend is all terribly wrong and I feel sorry for anybody caught with minimum traces of anything in their lives who has suddenly seen his face on Sky News just above the title "Drunk Pilot"!...the aberration is already here!
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I cant believe that in this day and age, that even though the guy hasn't been proved guilty, the guy's name, age and now where he lives is revealed (even on Ceefax). Of course he MUST be guilty. No-one has ever been wrongly accused eh?
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Unpleasant though it is, this kind of reportage isn't new, nor is it unique to this kind of allegation. Relatively few people accused of anything have any kind of protection. The media are obliged to use qualifying words such as "alleged", "accused" or whatever, but otherwise can go quite far to painting a picture of guilt.
Sky News are saying he failed a breath test (???), whilst most others are using the term "drunk", but without substantiating it (e.g. directly quoting a witness who judged the pilot as being in that condition).
Sky News are saying he failed a breath test (???), whilst most others are using the term "drunk", but without substantiating it (e.g. directly quoting a witness who judged the pilot as being in that condition).
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would be good if the test came back negative, would the press look silly, but bet they wouldn't say so, and what of virgin ? bad press - yes, but if he was innocent would they continue his employment ?
Does anyone know if BA offered the oslo crew their jobs back ? - false accusations are costing people their careers'
Does anyone know if BA offered the oslo crew their jobs back ? - false accusations are costing people their careers'
