Flight Deck Access for passengers

[Mark Lewis]

Despite the fact that airlines won't allow you in the flightdeck whilst the aircraft is in the air, once the plane is on the stand with the engine off most airlines are more than happy to allow you in the cockpit. Its not quite the same, but most of the information you can get in the air can be obtained on the ground, especially from a lowly enthusiasts point of view.

[Avman]

Notso Fantastic raises a very interesting point concerning cabin crew. It also extends beyond that particular profession too. These "exceptions" are what make the whole security argument an absolute sham.

However, his opinion about ATC visits disappoint me. I understand the frustration of not being allowed his wife or family up front. However, ATC fam flights are for good professional reasons. There's a whole new generation of controllers entering the ATC world and future pilot-controller relations will suffer with the present state of affairs, and with pilots developing Notso Fantastic 's policy. Next, ATC will say boll@cks to pilots visiting them, and the "them & us" culture will ensue. I've witnessed it more and more in the past year already.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Bob

Not sure if you are trying to be contentious or muddy the waters but what you have written is incorrect.

You have cut and pasted from an old, first draft, copy which has had many changes made to it after reference to the major British airlines. It is NOT effective from today. It has NOT even been published yet.

I think that when the final Direction is published very shortly a lot of the concerned professionals above will see that reasonable measures have been taken to ensure we continue to fly in a secure environment.

Anne

[Bob Upndown]

Anne,

Firstly, let me offer apologies to you and all others that may feel I am being contentious or trying to muddy the waters - I'm not, promise!


That document is indeed cut and pasted - from the intranet of the airline I work for. It has been posted as the new policy, effective from today and I posted it here in good faith.

If it's the case that it's incorrect, I'd appreciate it if you could supply further details since if there are discrepancies then they need to be flagged.

Regards,
Bob

[MADGASTERS]

Flight Deck Visits ?

Hi everyone , i am flying to Lanzarote on 7th of December from Bristol with Britannia airways on a B757 (my favorite plane) and was hoping to visit the flight deck, dose any know Britannia policy on this matter. I am a pilot myself and i have my PPL and have 158 hours on C-172 & PA28-161 . I am plane mad and i am hoping the get my CPL in a few years time when i have saved up some more money any info would be great.

Thanks Paul

[Anne.Nonymous]

Bob

Thanks for the response!

I am reliably informed that Monday may be the day!

Anne

P.S. ATC personnel can fly now in any UK airline with the Flt Ops Director's permission.

[Apollo101]

Rwy in Sight.....

I agree with the "starts on the ground" philosophy regarding security. You can put bricks and mortar between the cabin and flight deck, it ain't gonna make a lick of difference if the security stinks on the ground.

And I do believe someone wanting to do ill will would ask for a jump seat. Why not? How about having a small child do it? I have seen the pictures of little kids in head gear, waving machine guns in the name of so and so! It scares the c**p out of me. Why stop short of using them to gain access to the fightdeck with a knife?

I think a policy of keeping the doors locked from push-back to chocks should be mandatory for all carriers world wide.

[BN2A]

Not AGAIN, surely???

[Final 3 Greens]

Paul

Everyone here will think that you are plane mad for asking this question and it will make them plane mad that you have , since it has been asked many times ... there is even another thread running currently about this.

The answer is that you will not be able to visit the flight deck whilst airborne (not just BY policy, but any UK airline), but you MAY be able to have a look in it on the ground whilst the engines are off .... hopefully someone else may advise if BY have a policy on this. Some airlines do at the capt's discretion.

[ANOpax]

Airbubba

Pax haven't been permitted on the flight deck in the U.S. for nearly three decades now, it is still a novel concept in some countries...

sadly, it didn't really matter did it?

[Apollo101]

Notso Fantastic......

If you are basing my being inept in the field of aviation, or what is going on with regards to matters of aviation strictly on my profile provided to all users of PPRUNE, then you you really need to flush out your headgear.

I know enough to contribute to these threads. I enjoy contributing and I was only bringing a point to bear based on what I have seen on another website. And I know how much of a hot topic this is.

If I don't know about somthing, I don't contribute, If I know something, I contribute.

Bus Drivers don't have a door to lock. Wonder how they manage?

[Final 3 Greens]

Notsofantastic

As a stakeholder in the process of flying (about 90/100 sectors pa) I do agree with your sentiments.

It's one of the saddest aspects of travelling in the past couple of years, that casual (and usually pleasant) contacts between the flight deck and pax seldom happen anymore.

We should all remember that US flight decks were not locked on 9/11 because of terrorist action and did not save the day when confronted by dedicated terrorists (there ought to be another word, but fanatical somehow misses the point), with a clever plan.

But we are all paying the price now - usually with 'window dressing' that is for public consumption.

Personally, the first place I would like tackled is unauthorised access to aircraft on stand or in the hangar.

Unfortunately, Apollo probably doesn't know what this means

[Anne.Nonymous]

Notso

I am interested to hear the 744 is the only a/c with a lavatory for flightdeck crew. I didn't know that ElAl had got rid of its 767's - some of which have no flight deck door and the flight deck is accessed from its own external door.


Anne

[Tinstaafl]

I find it curious that those who are against arming aircrew seem quite happy to have an F16 shoot down the airliner instead.

[Flying Lawyer]

Apollo101

Your original questions and others you asked later have been answered by professional pilots, but you don't seem to accept what they say.

You concluded your initial post with .
Perhaps you might be able to reduce your state of confusion, to say , if you actually listened to what professionals with individually and collectively years of experience in the industry say?

[toon]

Well, lets all roll on our backs like lapdogs !
Our 'fantastic' Govenment and CAA here in the UK are all show with no real substance.
We are authorised to carry ATC / CAA etc (latter read 'suprise,suprise !) on the jump seats, people who I have never met but i am not authorised to carry my wife and kids !!!!! or indeed another Captain working for the same airline but off duty ! Typical CAA deskjocky crap.
Most airlines landing in Heathrow are foriegn carriers and have no locked door policies whatsoever, but that dosn't matter because UK registered aircraft are safe !!!
(DTR / CAA logic for ya !)
It seems here in the UK the 'politcal correctness brigade' have the rule, every stupid policy that is thought up is adhered to without question, I 'see' the CAA are now implementing 'enhanced eye tests' ? it may interest them to know that very few opticians have the equipment cabable of carrying out these tests and my optician didn't even understand the relevance of it !!!!
Perhaps the money spent in implementing this rubbish might be better directed at forcing airports (egcc) a point in case to put proper docking stations up instead of the chalk boards they have now, perhaps then we wouldn't all need binoculars !!!
rant over !

[Airbubba]

>>sadly, it didn't really matter did it?

You're right, it will take years for some countries to catch up.

All these new concepts like drug and alcohol testing and keeping granny off the jumpseat have been the law in America for a decade or more.

[Devils Advocate]

We might have a 'locked flight-deck door policy' but it is as good as useless all the time that we keep opening it !

We now have the farce that every time the cabin crew need to come in to the flightdeck they pick up the interphone, give us a ‘bingbong’, and ask us to release the electronic door lock – they then open the door and enter, usually with hands full of food tray’s or a couple of cups of tea / coffee.

The exact same is true when we ‘bingbong’ the cabin wanting something from them. The cabin crew again pickup the interphone, and invariably the subsequent following action is that they make a move toward the flightdeck door ( coz we’ve unlocked it ), open it, and then come in.

At this point the flightdeck door is not shut, it is not locked, it is wide open !

You could put the doors of Fort Knox on the flightdeck if you want, but they’re no defence if they’re open.

Aside - whether you’re crew member or a passenger, on your next flight, have a count how many times the flightdeck door is opened.

Now from the viewpoint of passengers ( or terrorists ) within the cabin, any idiot could work out that when there are two trays of food and drinks waiting on the galley-top beside the flightdeck door, and the senior cabin crew member is using the interphone, that it’s highly likely that the flightdeck door is about to be unlocked, and opened !

If terrorists were intent on gaining access to the flightdeck this would be their signal to act. – and let me say it again – we, the crew, have opened the door for them, and all that then typically stands between us and any terrorists is usually a slip of a girl.

And let’s not forget that any such terrorists are likely to be highly trained, tough, and suicidally determined desperado’s and a hostie with her hands full is not likely to be much of a hindrance to them.

If you want to be 100% safe then don’t open the door, ever !

But there’s the rub.

To my knowledge the ElAl system is the only creditable one that offers the level of protection and flexibility we require – but it costs bucket loads to install.

So, what price safety ?!

This whole armoured door thing is a farce designed to make it look like the governments are doing something about aviation security – however it’s been ill-conceived and done only for the sake of public appearances.

Perhaps the best bit is that, should a terrorist manage to gain entry to the flightdeck, with the door closed behind them, they will be almost impossible to remove – as they are, somewhat ironically, now being protected by the very thing which was designed to keep them out.

[Max Angle]

"Perhaps the best bit is that, should a terrorist manage to gain entry to the flightdeck, with the door closed behind them, they will be almost impossible to remove – as they are, somewhat ironically, now being protected by the very thing which was designed to keep them out"

I'm afraid this hits the nail on the head, once the nutter is in he only has to take out two untrained people who are sitting, facing the wrong way and with a seat belt on before he has complete command of the aircraft. No amount of "passenger power" is going to get him out. As said above the only safe method is the El Al double door that means there is never an open access from the cabin to the flightdeck, quite possible to do but very expensive.

The other major problem raised here is that of other carriers flying into UK airspace with far more relaxed rules than ours. Lets not delude ourselves here, the purpose of these rules is NOT to safeguard the aircraft or it's passengers but to prevent mass death and injury to those on the ground in a 9/11 style attack. The US has stipulated than any aircraft in thier airspace must comply but the British government, as ever more concerned with presentaion than substance, has not issued the same edict to carriers flying into the UK.

Where are the jornos when you need them?, come on guys forget the "I managed to work airside for 5 days with my granny's picture on my pass" type stories and expose these serious failings in the UK's attitude to security.

[ILS 119.5]

I know of one UK airline who is allowing ATC staff on the jump seats for fam flights. This is for pilot/controller integration in case of emergencies. It's no good if the Captain doesn't know what the controller wants and vice versa in such situations. Our professions are about safety and we have to have this type of intercourse to ensure future flight safety. I don't know if the DOT instructions are correct but I think that BALPA and GATCO should get together to formulate a strategy for Pilot/ATCO integration and emergency scenario training.
Also all Pilots and Controllers are security screened and if either of them wanted to cause any damage then no one can stop a pilot already in the air nor can anyone stop the controller pointing a few aircraft at each other.