737 crashes into World Trade Centre
Union Goon
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these things don't happen in a vacume and these people are supported, coddled and egged on by various populations.
I volunteer to turn the key.
First cruise missle should go to the square where the palestinians are celebrating.
Wino
I volunteer to turn the key.
First cruise missle should go to the square where the palestinians are celebrating.
Wino
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After a long day patrolling the shores of the UK for an unknown reason, I get back to my accomodation to find out what has happened across the pond. I don't think that I believe it yet. I have watched the 2nd CA crash several times and I still don't believe it.
Having been in hostile action before I thought I had seen death and destruction, but nothing can compare with this.
My thoughts and sympathy are with the families, friends and collegues of those involved.
I am on again in 7 hours and I will be thinking of this act of sheer lunacy and utter contempt to human life for a long time.
A sad day for everyone. There are tears in the messhall tonight.
I look forward to seeing the group responsible for this horrific act being "prosecuted" although I would prefer to flatten him and his family personally.
A VERY angry RAF boy.
Having been in hostile action before I thought I had seen death and destruction, but nothing can compare with this.
My thoughts and sympathy are with the families, friends and collegues of those involved.
I am on again in 7 hours and I will be thinking of this act of sheer lunacy and utter contempt to human life for a long time.
A sad day for everyone. There are tears in the messhall tonight.
I look forward to seeing the group responsible for this horrific act being "prosecuted" although I would prefer to flatten him and his family personally.
A VERY angry RAF boy.
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How do you get a knife or box cutter on to a plane?
I hate to disillusion people who might think that we in Europe have secure airports but this actually happened to me last week in LHR.
As I came to the metal detectors in terminal one en-route to Prague I watched the guy in front of me take a swiss army knife out of his pocket, put it in the plastic tray with his keys and walk through. He set it off anyway so while he was patted down I walked through and watched with amazement as, after the patdown, the security guy actually handed the guy his keys and the knife.
Security is only as good as the people who apply it.
I hate to disillusion people who might think that we in Europe have secure airports but this actually happened to me last week in LHR.
As I came to the metal detectors in terminal one en-route to Prague I watched the guy in front of me take a swiss army knife out of his pocket, put it in the plastic tray with his keys and walk through. He set it off anyway so while he was patted down I walked through and watched with amazement as, after the patdown, the security guy actually handed the guy his keys and the knife.
Security is only as good as the people who apply it.
Towerdog,
yes I feel a measured response is required, like a surgeon cutting out a cancerous tumour.
Here in the UK we don't know the casualty figures yet or any accurate estimates, but before the media and pundits go into a feeding frenzy on the numbers, a sobering thought is that the Feb 1945 bombing raids on Dresden in Germany, accounted for somewhere between 35 and 135,000 victims over 2 nights. To blindly strike out will only escalate the problem and draw more and more groups into 'the fight'. I have a 5 year old daughter and a new delivery expected from the 'factory' in December, I don't want either of them to grow up in a world like my parents had to in the early 40's.
I've also had the opportunity to speak to my brother who's in America today, I feel an enormous amount of sorrow for those who will never have the opportunity to speak to friends , relatives or colleagues who were victims yesterday.
RIP all victims of the 11th
JS
yes I feel a measured response is required, like a surgeon cutting out a cancerous tumour.
Here in the UK we don't know the casualty figures yet or any accurate estimates, but before the media and pundits go into a feeding frenzy on the numbers, a sobering thought is that the Feb 1945 bombing raids on Dresden in Germany, accounted for somewhere between 35 and 135,000 victims over 2 nights. To blindly strike out will only escalate the problem and draw more and more groups into 'the fight'. I have a 5 year old daughter and a new delivery expected from the 'factory' in December, I don't want either of them to grow up in a world like my parents had to in the early 40's.
I've also had the opportunity to speak to my brother who's in America today, I feel an enormous amount of sorrow for those who will never have the opportunity to speak to friends , relatives or colleagues who were victims yesterday.
RIP all victims of the 11th
JS
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This is slightly off-topic but I'm sure you'll find it interesting.
I was reading the French daily Le Monde and came across an interview with Aaron Swirski, the architect of the World Trade Center. It turns out the the Jerusalem Post interviewed him and a copy of that interview is available on their site to listen to (in English): http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/0...ews.34595.html
I was reading the French daily Le Monde and came across an interview with Aaron Swirski, the architect of the World Trade Center. It turns out the the Jerusalem Post interviewed him and a copy of that interview is available on their site to listen to (in English): http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/0...ews.34595.html
How did they do the hijacking?
Facts/Rumours so far:
- Box cutters or other small knives used (either they found something that would get past security or they would have to subvert security on a precise schedule in several locations)
- Low passenger loads (enabling small number of hijackers to overpower/hold off pax; I suspect several hijackers/plane as a half-dozen guys with knives would likely succumb to a couple hundred seriously agitated pax)
- Enough training to fly 767 (the training may not have been in a box; there are some good quality PC sim programs out there that might have been enough on top of basic pilot lessons - and I recall an instructor telling me of a 747 box where you could fly through tall buildings; so maybe they did train in a box)
- Very high degree of organisation
- CVRs will be valuable unless hijackers knew how to pull CB (digging usable CVRs out of WTC rubble may be problematic, but Pentagon and Pittsburgh CVR likely retrievable)
For what it's worth, rapid (if possible) decompression might be worth consideration as an ultimate desperation hijacker countermeasure; at least it would be hard for the hijackers to move around while remaining on O2.
Facts/Rumours so far:
- Box cutters or other small knives used (either they found something that would get past security or they would have to subvert security on a precise schedule in several locations)
- Low passenger loads (enabling small number of hijackers to overpower/hold off pax; I suspect several hijackers/plane as a half-dozen guys with knives would likely succumb to a couple hundred seriously agitated pax)
- Enough training to fly 767 (the training may not have been in a box; there are some good quality PC sim programs out there that might have been enough on top of basic pilot lessons - and I recall an instructor telling me of a 747 box where you could fly through tall buildings; so maybe they did train in a box)
- Very high degree of organisation
- CVRs will be valuable unless hijackers knew how to pull CB (digging usable CVRs out of WTC rubble may be problematic, but Pentagon and Pittsburgh CVR likely retrievable)
For what it's worth, rapid (if possible) decompression might be worth consideration as an ultimate desperation hijacker countermeasure; at least it would be hard for the hijackers to move around while remaining on O2.
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I guess they figured boxcutters would do nicely because nobody on board is armed. Heck, even if they couldn't get so much as a pointed stick onto the plane a few people well-trained in martial arts could probably have done the job anyway. The only real deterrent would be to hire more Air Marshalls, and perhaps letting the pilots themselves carry hardware. These terrorists have such a low regard for human life that they don't care about dying, but I doubt any are interested in dying without taking the innocents with them.
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I too have been on the wrong side of US foreign policy. However nothing excuses this horrendous, cowardly attack on innocents and our profession.
I hope the world no longer tolerates any of the various pariah states and terrorist organisations capabale of this, whether responsible or not. Its time to shut down the Bin Ladens, Saddams, Qadaffis etc of this world. Let this never happen again.
My heartfelt sypathies to all the victims and to America and her people
I hope the world no longer tolerates any of the various pariah states and terrorist organisations capabale of this, whether responsible or not. Its time to shut down the Bin Ladens, Saddams, Qadaffis etc of this world. Let this never happen again.
My heartfelt sypathies to all the victims and to America and her people
Swiss Army Knife a Lousy Weapon
My Swiss Army Knife goes wherever I go while clothed including in the back. It's a great tool and a next to useless weapon. The blade if it did not fold back on your fingers would likely get severely bent if you tried sticking it into live flesh, the owner of which would not likely be cooperating.
My Swiss Army Knife goes wherever I go while clothed including in the back. It's a great tool and a next to useless weapon. The blade if it did not fold back on your fingers would likely get severely bent if you tried sticking it into live flesh, the owner of which would not likely be cooperating.
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If that brave passenger, God bless, was correct then knives and box-cutters would have been available airside of security. Any of the restaurants/food outlets would have them to hand, and I doubt there is much in the way of a background check for the cooks and dishwashers who work there.
I rarely cry. I cried today.
I rarely cry. I cried today.
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1.The airlines I have worked for tell us to cooperate with a hijacker. When the SQ hijacking took place I was amazed to find they used butter knives taken from their meal trays. I hope that airlines will re-think this policy. Cooperation is no guarantee that you or your passengers will survive.
2. If the US goes after the terrorists, I hope they give up that insane "no matter what, our boys and girls must not be harmed" policy. Please, please don't bomb the terrorists from 15,000 feet. Get down there and do the job properly.
2. If the US goes after the terrorists, I hope they give up that insane "no matter what, our boys and girls must not be harmed" policy. Please, please don't bomb the terrorists from 15,000 feet. Get down there and do the job properly.
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Afternoon kids... (Mriya225 here, I just so happen to be in Connecticut visiting my boyfriend, and my brother in Brooklyn, during this craziness--my login was failing so I had to re-register under a different name)
Tower Dog,
I can't remember if you were flying the 767's, 777's or 747's, luv, but I was wondering why it was so easy for these aircraft to be commandeered by somebody with a box cutter, for krissakes?!?
Also, maybe you or one of the other drivers out there could help me out with these points of concern... The flightdecks on the 757 & 767 are supposed to be remarkably similar--are the type ratings similar enough to use for cross over experience just long enough to hit a target? and what kind of security measures do you all use to protect yourselves from passengers in cases like these?
My mind is still reeling from the staggering failure of the FAA's security measures to ensure that situations like these are averted...
American Airlines Boeing 767-200 (Flight 11)
Boston, Massachusetts to Los Angeles, California
Impacted the north tower of the World Trade Center in New York City.
United Airlines Boeing 767-200 (Flight 175)
Boston, Massachusetts to Los Angeles, California
Impacted the south tower of the World Trade Center 18 minutes after the first crash.
American Airlines Boeing 757-200 (Flight 77)
Washington, D.C. (Dulles) to Los Angeles, California
Crashed into the Pentagon building in Washington, D.C.
United Airlines Boeing 757-200 (Flight 93)
Newark, New Jersey to San Francisco, California
Crashed in south-eastern Pennsylvania, 80 miles south-east of Pittsburgh
These are all category "X" airports--what kind of changes can you imagine might be required to airport security to protect you all a little better, if anything? 'Cause this would almost have assisted by someone with access to the aircraft--don't y'all agree??
Tower Dog,
I can't remember if you were flying the 767's, 777's or 747's, luv, but I was wondering why it was so easy for these aircraft to be commandeered by somebody with a box cutter, for krissakes?!?
Also, maybe you or one of the other drivers out there could help me out with these points of concern... The flightdecks on the 757 & 767 are supposed to be remarkably similar--are the type ratings similar enough to use for cross over experience just long enough to hit a target? and what kind of security measures do you all use to protect yourselves from passengers in cases like these?
My mind is still reeling from the staggering failure of the FAA's security measures to ensure that situations like these are averted...
American Airlines Boeing 767-200 (Flight 11)
Boston, Massachusetts to Los Angeles, California
Impacted the north tower of the World Trade Center in New York City.
United Airlines Boeing 767-200 (Flight 175)
Boston, Massachusetts to Los Angeles, California
Impacted the south tower of the World Trade Center 18 minutes after the first crash.
American Airlines Boeing 757-200 (Flight 77)
Washington, D.C. (Dulles) to Los Angeles, California
Crashed into the Pentagon building in Washington, D.C.
United Airlines Boeing 757-200 (Flight 93)
Newark, New Jersey to San Francisco, California
Crashed in south-eastern Pennsylvania, 80 miles south-east of Pittsburgh
These are all category "X" airports--what kind of changes can you imagine might be required to airport security to protect you all a little better, if anything? 'Cause this would almost have assisted by someone with access to the aircraft--don't y'all agree??
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Having watch the news for most of the day, it is still hard to believe what has happened. This will be one of the single most tragedys of our modern world.
Where were you?
1943 - Pearl Harbour
1963 - John F Kennedy assinated
1998 - Princess Diana killed in Paris crash
2001 - World Trade Centre destroyed, thousands dead!
'May perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of all the faithfully departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen'
Where were you?
1943 - Pearl Harbour
1963 - John F Kennedy assinated
1998 - Princess Diana killed in Paris crash
2001 - World Trade Centre destroyed, thousands dead!
'May perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of all the faithfully departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen'
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RatherBeFlying,
Although it's not remotely relevant, a box cutter isn't exactly a deadly weapon under normal circumstances but it's been pretty effective here. What I was trying to illustrate is the fact that it isn't hard to get such weapons onto a plane.
The policy of cooperating with hijackers will have to be reviewed and maybe we'll all have to take a leaf from El-Al's book and put armed and very highly trained Skymarshalls on every flight. Today's news might have looked very different if these aircraft had had an armed skymarshall on board. It certainly would have taken more that a few blades to take those aircraft.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: FREDA ]
Although it's not remotely relevant, a box cutter isn't exactly a deadly weapon under normal circumstances but it's been pretty effective here. What I was trying to illustrate is the fact that it isn't hard to get such weapons onto a plane.
The policy of cooperating with hijackers will have to be reviewed and maybe we'll all have to take a leaf from El-Al's book and put armed and very highly trained Skymarshalls on every flight. Today's news might have looked very different if these aircraft had had an armed skymarshall on board. It certainly would have taken more that a few blades to take those aircraft.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: FREDA ]
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Wakey Wakey Fixed Wing Drivers...
How would you get a weapon onboard an airliner? Well you give one to every passenger with their meal. I've often wondered why meal cutlery is made of steel.
Tragic day for the planet.
How would you get a weapon onboard an airliner? Well you give one to every passenger with their meal. I've often wondered why meal cutlery is made of steel.
Tragic day for the planet.
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Watched most of the day live...sat absolutely astounded as the second aircraft flew into the building. Today was both a very sad day but a very heart warming day simultaneously.
The anger, hate, and other emotions that were evoked by the scenes of death and destruction were overpowered by those of pride and patriotism.
I saw emergency personnel placing themselves into mortal danger in order to help others and then knew that hundreds of them had died when the buildings came down on top of them. I observed on television hundreds of total strangers helping one another. Saw how orderly people were in this time of crisis.
I saw what is best about our great nation and the common ordinary people that have made it great. I saw the two leaders of Congress stand shoulder to shoulder and forcefully announce the undivided support of the entire Congress for our President and the national defense forces, and voice their determination that this attack would be avenged with every resource of the nation.
My proudest moment was at the end of the speeches by the leaders of Congress, when spontaneously....all of the elected congressional leaders of our nation began to sing "American the Beautiful".
The terrorists have no idea how badly they failed in their attack. They brought us together like no other event has done in my life time.
Proud to be an American tonight...freedom is not free....it costs dearly, but it is worth everything we must pay.
Say a prayer for those that died, that were injured, and for the families that lost loved ones.
The anger, hate, and other emotions that were evoked by the scenes of death and destruction were overpowered by those of pride and patriotism.
I saw emergency personnel placing themselves into mortal danger in order to help others and then knew that hundreds of them had died when the buildings came down on top of them. I observed on television hundreds of total strangers helping one another. Saw how orderly people were in this time of crisis.
I saw what is best about our great nation and the common ordinary people that have made it great. I saw the two leaders of Congress stand shoulder to shoulder and forcefully announce the undivided support of the entire Congress for our President and the national defense forces, and voice their determination that this attack would be avenged with every resource of the nation.
My proudest moment was at the end of the speeches by the leaders of Congress, when spontaneously....all of the elected congressional leaders of our nation began to sing "American the Beautiful".
The terrorists have no idea how badly they failed in their attack. They brought us together like no other event has done in my life time.
Proud to be an American tonight...freedom is not free....it costs dearly, but it is worth everything we must pay.
Say a prayer for those that died, that were injured, and for the families that lost loved ones.
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To my American colleagues & Friends: my sympathy to your and your fellow Americans. God Bless you, and God Bless America.
We pledge the utmost assistance with the `measured respones'
Dark Knight
We pledge the utmost assistance with the `measured respones'
Dark Knight
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Frequentboeingflyer, I was thinking if there was anything symbolic about the date, the first thing I thought of was Black September re hijackings in Jordan by Palestinians in '70. Regardless, I lost a good friend of mine who worked at WTC and I hope they bomb the hell out of whoever did this!
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As I indicated previously, I am absolutely horrified and sickened by this event.
Sky Marshalls are a nice idea, but useless under the circumstances, they would not be present in the cockpit when the bad stuff happened.
And who really wants high powered stuff on an airplane anyway?
Better to install a couple of starter pistols in the pilots NAV bags. Something a pilot could discreetly pull out when the bad guys attention was diverted, like looking at the Captain (nothing personal).
A .22 caliber low velocity round would be of particular use. Put one in the bad guys ear and it would just rattle around in his brain.
Sounds horrid, I know, but the mob has been using this method for years.
Bsides, It's them or us.
PB
Sky Marshalls are a nice idea, but useless under the circumstances, they would not be present in the cockpit when the bad stuff happened.
And who really wants high powered stuff on an airplane anyway?
Better to install a couple of starter pistols in the pilots NAV bags. Something a pilot could discreetly pull out when the bad guys attention was diverted, like looking at the Captain (nothing personal).
A .22 caliber low velocity round would be of particular use. Put one in the bad guys ear and it would just rattle around in his brain.
Sounds horrid, I know, but the mob has been using this method for years.
Bsides, It's them or us.
PB
Union Goon
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I am wondering if Isolating the cockpit from the cabin once and for all might not be the answer. Install a Lav near the cockpit and a solid bulkhead between the cabin and the flight deck. Access to the flight deck would be from an outside door only.
Before anyone says there is anything important for apilot to check back there, remember the freighters have no access to the back.
But there is nothing to be gained from passenger access to the cockpit.
Cheers
Wino
Before anyone says there is anything important for apilot to check back there, remember the freighters have no access to the back.
But there is nothing to be gained from passenger access to the cockpit.
Cheers
Wino