AOPIS: "Cabin Air Contamination"- Ongoing Health & Safety Issue (merged)
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I note that we have now gone from:
"the problem of air supply contamination is in fact a global one of aircraft design and maintenance and affects numerous aircraft types such as the BAe 146, B757, A320 & MD80. The health & safety implications remain the same for each exposure".
to a case concerning certain tail numbers of one particular type of aircraft. I shall therefore leave the subject to those who are directly concerned with fixing the defect(s). But do note that it is pointless slagging off all aircraft over a problem that affects only one particular model.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
"the problem of air supply contamination is in fact a global one of aircraft design and maintenance and affects numerous aircraft types such as the BAe 146, B757, A320 & MD80. The health & safety implications remain the same for each exposure".
to a case concerning certain tail numbers of one particular type of aircraft. I shall therefore leave the subject to those who are directly concerned with fixing the defect(s). But do note that it is pointless slagging off all aircraft over a problem that affects only one particular model.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Darwin
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Blacksheep
Blacksheep you say that OPs have never been found and you want evidence, Ok here it is...
Ansett found TCP in the ducting, Qantas Southern Australia, Allied Signal found it, BRE and Portland Down found it etc...
If you still think OPs like TOCP, MOCP, DOCP and TMPP are safe to inhale I would be happy to give your name to some scientists who test the consequences of OP exposure on Rats and Hens, as I am sure they would welcome a human input if you are volunteering your kind services for the benefit of the aviation community and we can spare a few rats and hens as well.
Oh! I can already hear you saying it may be the case that OPs were found but the amounts were so small that they could never cause any ill effects, well I hear that a single dose of .01 LD50 of an OP causes massive brain cell death, so repeated exposure to even lower amounts will not be good for you. Also that is .01 LD50 of one compound, imagine a nice cocktail of compounds!
Why do you think Mobil have never done testing that reproduces the exposure scenario, i.e heat the oil, and do inhalation tests? Or maybe they have, but have decided not to share this with us.
You remind me of the cigarette industry doctors saying all was well back in the 60s. I was new to flying then but times change and crews are getting wise and regretably sick as well.
How do you account for the PET and MRI abnormalities seen in crews who have been exposed, lung problems etc.. Just a bad crew meal?
When an independant panel tests Mobil jet oil 2 in the way it is exposing crews and they check for CN and tell me nothing found then IŽll shut up. As that will not happen, I guess I will just keep watching out for your nonsense posts and listening/reading the mis-information you give your crews!
"Only toxic if swallowed!" what a laugh!
Blacksheep you say that OPs have never been found and you want evidence, Ok here it is...
Ansett found TCP in the ducting, Qantas Southern Australia, Allied Signal found it, BRE and Portland Down found it etc...
If you still think OPs like TOCP, MOCP, DOCP and TMPP are safe to inhale I would be happy to give your name to some scientists who test the consequences of OP exposure on Rats and Hens, as I am sure they would welcome a human input if you are volunteering your kind services for the benefit of the aviation community and we can spare a few rats and hens as well.
Oh! I can already hear you saying it may be the case that OPs were found but the amounts were so small that they could never cause any ill effects, well I hear that a single dose of .01 LD50 of an OP causes massive brain cell death, so repeated exposure to even lower amounts will not be good for you. Also that is .01 LD50 of one compound, imagine a nice cocktail of compounds!
Why do you think Mobil have never done testing that reproduces the exposure scenario, i.e heat the oil, and do inhalation tests? Or maybe they have, but have decided not to share this with us.
You remind me of the cigarette industry doctors saying all was well back in the 60s. I was new to flying then but times change and crews are getting wise and regretably sick as well.
How do you account for the PET and MRI abnormalities seen in crews who have been exposed, lung problems etc.. Just a bad crew meal?
When an independant panel tests Mobil jet oil 2 in the way it is exposing crews and they check for CN and tell me nothing found then IŽll shut up. As that will not happen, I guess I will just keep watching out for your nonsense posts and listening/reading the mis-information you give your crews!
"Only toxic if swallowed!" what a laugh!
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Homeopathy and other stuff
Since we seemed to have established that only one aircraft model was involved and not the wide spectrum of common aircraft types orignally mentioned, I was going to remain silent. Your last post obliges me to respond.
I previously asked for tangible facts but none are produced so far beyond the quoted 0.01 LD50 as causing massive brain cell death. However the actual LD50 rate was omitted. To save you the trouble, the LD50 rate for the OPs you quoted range from 70mg/Kg to 780mg/Kg (in hens) so the brain death value that you gave equates to 0.7mg / kg in the most toxic case - a dose of 52mg for a 75 kg human.
Early on in the topic you included a large selection of affected aircraft that included the B757. A B757 with two RB211-535E4 engines might use about 2-3 litres of engine oil on a typical two to three hour sector. Most of the oil leaking past the bearing seals would be expelled as designed through the breather system. Without going into the finer details of the engine bleed and aircraft pneumatic systems, the absolute worst case scenario that one could realistically imagine might put as much as 63 grammes of this oil into the 120,000 or so litres of air that will pass through a B757 cabin during a two hour flight. Of this the occupants will breathe less than 50,000 litres, inhaling a grand total of 26.5 grammes or just 145 mg each. That also assumes that HEPA filters in the recirculation system do not remove any of the oil. For a typical passenger weighing 75 Kg this equates to less than 0.2 mg per Kg body weight.
That is not their consumption of OPs however, but of complete oil, so the actual total doseage of OPs suspended in that oil would not exceed 0.0001 LD50 - such a minute dose that there is probably no way of empirically measuring its effect. The excretion rate for OPs is quite high, with typically 90% being eliminated in 24 hours - Organophosphate doseage is not cumulative.
If by some unimaginable disaster the entire oil contents of one engine were discharged into the cabin, the doseage could possibly reach the 0.01 LD50 range that you quoted, but every passenger would emerge drenched in oil, thus providing tangible evidence of their exposure.
I'd be more worried about the effects on my health of long term exposure to airline food or jet lag if I were you.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
I previously asked for tangible facts but none are produced so far beyond the quoted 0.01 LD50 as causing massive brain cell death. However the actual LD50 rate was omitted. To save you the trouble, the LD50 rate for the OPs you quoted range from 70mg/Kg to 780mg/Kg (in hens) so the brain death value that you gave equates to 0.7mg / kg in the most toxic case - a dose of 52mg for a 75 kg human.
Early on in the topic you included a large selection of affected aircraft that included the B757. A B757 with two RB211-535E4 engines might use about 2-3 litres of engine oil on a typical two to three hour sector. Most of the oil leaking past the bearing seals would be expelled as designed through the breather system. Without going into the finer details of the engine bleed and aircraft pneumatic systems, the absolute worst case scenario that one could realistically imagine might put as much as 63 grammes of this oil into the 120,000 or so litres of air that will pass through a B757 cabin during a two hour flight. Of this the occupants will breathe less than 50,000 litres, inhaling a grand total of 26.5 grammes or just 145 mg each. That also assumes that HEPA filters in the recirculation system do not remove any of the oil. For a typical passenger weighing 75 Kg this equates to less than 0.2 mg per Kg body weight.
That is not their consumption of OPs however, but of complete oil, so the actual total doseage of OPs suspended in that oil would not exceed 0.0001 LD50 - such a minute dose that there is probably no way of empirically measuring its effect. The excretion rate for OPs is quite high, with typically 90% being eliminated in 24 hours - Organophosphate doseage is not cumulative.
If by some unimaginable disaster the entire oil contents of one engine were discharged into the cabin, the doseage could possibly reach the 0.01 LD50 range that you quoted, but every passenger would emerge drenched in oil, thus providing tangible evidence of their exposure.
I'd be more worried about the effects on my health of long term exposure to airline food or jet lag if I were you.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 7th Nov 2003 at 20:44.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Banbury
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Invented" Damages?
While some people may lay around in Jet A1, or get covered in Oil regularly, with no noticeable damage is absolutely beside the point. There is a significant number of people who are succeptible to neurotoxins and WILL show symptoms.
Some people smoke all their lives and don't get cancer, so is smoking safe?
Get real!
If I seem p***ed off it's because I have suffered numerous neurological symptoms for the last 8 years, and suffer constant pain now. I am still flying, but only because the CAA are being very reasonable about my residual symptoms - which by the way are getting worse.
It's not about lawsuits. It's actually about getting companies to do as much as is reasonable to reduce health risks, and not just do nothing becasue the bean-counters reckon that it's cheaper to pay the few succeptible people off if ever they actually proceed against them - knowing that they can each shift blame to each other making a lawsuit difficult, costly and lengthy.
Some people smoke all their lives and don't get cancer, so is smoking safe?
Get real!
If I seem p***ed off it's because I have suffered numerous neurological symptoms for the last 8 years, and suffer constant pain now. I am still flying, but only because the CAA are being very reasonable about my residual symptoms - which by the way are getting worse.
It's not about lawsuits. It's actually about getting companies to do as much as is reasonable to reduce health risks, and not just do nothing becasue the bean-counters reckon that it's cheaper to pay the few succeptible people off if ever they actually proceed against them - knowing that they can each shift blame to each other making a lawsuit difficult, costly and lengthy.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Darwin
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Blacksheep
LD50 for hens of TOCP is not 780mg/Kg but 500 mg / Kg given ORALLY not inhalation (meant to be more toxic by a factor of about 10) therefore: .01 of 500mg / Kg would be 5 mg / Kg.
EQSFAP Environmental Quality and Safety. (Stuttgart, Fed. Rep. Ger.) V.1-5, 1972-76.
The current estimated NOAEL from a single exposure to TOCP in a hen is 25mg / Kg yet brain cell death is being seen at only 5mg / kg without any OPIDN signs whatsoever.
The NOAEL for man using a safety factor of 10 is 2.5 mg / kg and yet cell death is seen at 5 mg / Kg already.
This is also single dose damge and not inhalation and not synergestically applied with other OPs!
How much clearer does it need to be for you to to stop protecting your employer rather than your employees especailly as you have a duty of care to your employees!
"Do you sleep well?"
LD50 for hens of TOCP is not 780mg/Kg but 500 mg / Kg given ORALLY not inhalation (meant to be more toxic by a factor of about 10) therefore: .01 of 500mg / Kg would be 5 mg / Kg.
EQSFAP Environmental Quality and Safety. (Stuttgart, Fed. Rep. Ger.) V.1-5, 1972-76.
The current estimated NOAEL from a single exposure to TOCP in a hen is 25mg / Kg yet brain cell death is being seen at only 5mg / kg without any OPIDN signs whatsoever.
The NOAEL for man using a safety factor of 10 is 2.5 mg / kg and yet cell death is seen at 5 mg / Kg already.
This is also single dose damge and not inhalation and not synergestically applied with other OPs!
How much clearer does it need to be for you to to stop protecting your employer rather than your employees especailly as you have a duty of care to your employees!
"Do you sleep well?"
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to add my bit!
I have been "chosen" to investigate on too many times to mention when our acft come in with fumes defects.
Our MM procedure calls for the human nose to sample the bleed air etc.. I can tell you I have had head pressures and head fog for hours after.
Now something, toxic must do that.
What are the long term effects?
A lad left my shift with now diagnosed Parkinsons. Is this related?
Where is the proof it DOESNT do it!
I am sick of hearing: " we don't know!!!"
The big Fixer always sorts it out!!
I have been "chosen" to investigate on too many times to mention when our acft come in with fumes defects.
Our MM procedure calls for the human nose to sample the bleed air etc.. I can tell you I have had head pressures and head fog for hours after.
Now something, toxic must do that.
What are the long term effects?
A lad left my shift with now diagnosed Parkinsons. Is this related?
Where is the proof it DOESNT do it!
I am sick of hearing: " we don't know!!!"
The big Fixer always sorts it out!!
