Brits poised to Invade Canada? Again!
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just think how the Canadian Liberal Government could reorganize the world of aviation. Everybody would be broke in short order just as they are trying to do to AC.
Only in Canada you say...pity
Only in Canada you say...pity
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If past Canadian Gov't behavior is any indication, one month will quickly turn into two (three, four...). This gov't seems intent on deflecting the blame for any incompetence it displays in handling our aviation industry.
I have no qualms about AMM operating in Canada. For one month, or for the winter season. Canada 3000 topped off First Choice demand by wet leasing to Air 2000 and operating out of Manchester for a number of seasons.
I have every confidence in the Canadian travel industry, whom I know from the past, would be using Canadian carriers if Canadian carriers had the capacity available to serve the winter 'snowbirds' travel demands. It simply isn't there.
I've watched the Canadian airline industry self-destruct for at least the past 12 years. It is almost inevitable that we are going to end up with foreign carriers operating in Canada. Re-regulating the industry would not help.
Robert Milton is now on record as calling for 'Open Skies' between Canada and the US.
This just may be the way forward and out of this Collenette whirlpool that is sucking the industry 'down the toilet'.
I have no qualms about AMM operating in Canada. For one month, or for the winter season. Canada 3000 topped off First Choice demand by wet leasing to Air 2000 and operating out of Manchester for a number of seasons.
I have every confidence in the Canadian travel industry, whom I know from the past, would be using Canadian carriers if Canadian carriers had the capacity available to serve the winter 'snowbirds' travel demands. It simply isn't there.
I've watched the Canadian airline industry self-destruct for at least the past 12 years. It is almost inevitable that we are going to end up with foreign carriers operating in Canada. Re-regulating the industry would not help.
Robert Milton is now on record as calling for 'Open Skies' between Canada and the US.
This just may be the way forward and out of this Collenette whirlpool that is sucking the industry 'down the toilet'.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a thought, the Canadian travelling public get what they deserve. For years they as a whole have used price as a sole factor for which airline they fly on. They have continued to insist that $199 cad (80 GBP)is a fair price to pay to fly 3000 miles return, ignoring the high costs of flying airplanes safely and efficiently. C3 did this better than any of the other lowcost carriers and look where they are now, the rest of the charters should take note as there is always going to be someone to undercut you. The Canadian traveller now thinks that it's not fair that they should have to pay 10 times that amount for the same flight and want the govvies to "make them stop" (read as a whining child) at the same time they don't give a toss about the hard working dedicated airline employees that are in a constant struggle to save their jobs, usually at any cost. I say pay your money and enjoy the monster that has been created in A/C because you deserve it. It's economics stupid. 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: ex EGNM, now NZRO
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too true FCJ, but that's on their charter routes where the tour company would (part of the same group) would be screwing every last cent out of the hotel op's, day trips, etc. I recently had to fly long haul (with plenty of notice too) and C3 were far more expensive than regular scheduled carriers (and their A330 was packed sardine like). Perhaps they should have stuck to one thing!
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FcU:
When you make the statement, "It's economics, stupid", don't forget that the lower prices offered to the consumer by companies like C3, Skyservice, Air Transat et al, have given way to more consumers being able to afford to travel. This in turn has provided more jobs for folks in the industry. That too is economics, stupid!
C3 didn't fail because of the low prices they offered in the charter market. They were profitable in every year but one. Their failure was a direct result of the board of directors vain attempt to become the next Canadian Airlines!
All this whining about Air 2000 coming to Canada for a few winter months is quite something, when one thinks of how many Canucks have been flying in the U.K. for the last decade, every May to October. Maybe you should ask yourselves why it is that Skyservice and Air Transat have not objected to Air 2000's 5th freedom application? It's because they are both courting Signature for a long term contract. They know that making a big stink about Signature's parent company coming here for a few months would simply be more bad economics. Better to stroke the hand that might feed you than to bite it!
I am not unsympathetic to the plight of those who have lost their jobs recently. I've been there and it's no picnic. I just like to look at things from all sides before I go on a rant.
When you make the statement, "It's economics, stupid", don't forget that the lower prices offered to the consumer by companies like C3, Skyservice, Air Transat et al, have given way to more consumers being able to afford to travel. This in turn has provided more jobs for folks in the industry. That too is economics, stupid!
C3 didn't fail because of the low prices they offered in the charter market. They were profitable in every year but one. Their failure was a direct result of the board of directors vain attempt to become the next Canadian Airlines!
All this whining about Air 2000 coming to Canada for a few winter months is quite something, when one thinks of how many Canucks have been flying in the U.K. for the last decade, every May to October. Maybe you should ask yourselves why it is that Skyservice and Air Transat have not objected to Air 2000's 5th freedom application? It's because they are both courting Signature for a long term contract. They know that making a big stink about Signature's parent company coming here for a few months would simply be more bad economics. Better to stroke the hand that might feed you than to bite it!
I am not unsympathetic to the plight of those who have lost their jobs recently. I've been there and it's no picnic. I just like to look at things from all sides before I go on a rant.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Out West
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scud,
Have to agree with you. There has been a long tradition of reciprocal agreements on seasonal basis between the Canucks and Brits. Having Air 2000 operate out of Canada should be considered no different than any other season when additional lift was needed. It is a painful but necessary short term solution. Very unfortunate for the folks presently out of work, but keep the faith and look back on the Canadian charter industry; the jobs will come back.
Have to agree with you. There has been a long tradition of reciprocal agreements on seasonal basis between the Canucks and Brits. Having Air 2000 operate out of Canada should be considered no different than any other season when additional lift was needed. It is a painful but necessary short term solution. Very unfortunate for the folks presently out of work, but keep the faith and look back on the Canadian charter industry; the jobs will come back.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Allegedly, there's a new airline due to start in May 2002 called Canada Air Charter. Rumour has it that it's being set up by LeBlanc ... or, wait for it ... Robert Obadia! 
They say that they will operate 767's and 747's to Lisbon, Madrid, Reykjavik, Copenhagen, Tunis, Algiers, Kingston, Port-au-Prince, Martinique, Dakar and Abidjan. Ads for cabin crew (but not flight deck; leading to speculation that the aircraft are being provided on an ACMI basis by Air Atlanta) ran in yesterday's La Presse, a Montreal newspaper.
Interesting times ahead for the Canadian industry....
They say that they will operate 767's and 747's to Lisbon, Madrid, Reykjavik, Copenhagen, Tunis, Algiers, Kingston, Port-au-Prince, Martinique, Dakar and Abidjan. Ads for cabin crew (but not flight deck; leading to speculation that the aircraft are being provided on an ACMI basis by Air Atlanta) ran in yesterday's La Presse, a Montreal newspaper.
Interesting times ahead for the Canadian industry....
Didn't Skyservice, the Canadian charter operator use the A330 to fly YYZ-BFS-BCN, picking pax up in BFS for the spanish sector a about three summers ago? Sounds like double standards on the Canadian's part.....
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Out West
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guv,
Robert Obadia!
The last we'd heard from him he was hitching a ride on an ex Royal L1011 with all his furniture; destination, midnight flight to Chile 
I love this industry, it doesn't always attract the best and brightest that our management schools have to offer, but it certainly seems to have the market cornered on tenacious "characters)
Robert Obadia!
The last we'd heard from him he was hitching a ride on an ex Royal L1011 with all his furniture; destination, midnight flight to Chile I love this industry, it doesn't always attract the best and brightest that our management schools have to offer, but it certainly seems to have the market cornered on tenacious "characters)
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I sure hope that the Canadian government allows Air2000 and similar companies to operate within Canada. As most of you agree, the airline industry in Canada has been going down the drain the past 10 years. Competition is needed for AC, they are too dominant in the market and westjet, transat and skyservice is enough. The more the better! About 2 years ago when all was good, I had a friend at AC that said...ahh we're not worried about all these charter companies and so on... we cater to the business traveller. Well now that business travel has almost stopped now they cater to the budget traveller. Look at the US...does United, American etc try to compete with Southwest and Jetblue? No they don't... So all AC has managed to do now is fill up their airplanes with those budget travellers which forced some charter companies out of business...who gets screwed? The public... there is less choice and guess what? The prices are already more expensive... I am a controller who used to work in Toronto and if for no other reason, AC needs competition to take them down a notch. A little too arrogant...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: north of CYMX
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Euro ATC,
Thing is that at AT we have never even wanted to cater solely to the business traveller, that's why we stick to the original plan, ie charter flights, and so far it has done us nothing but good... 15 years of unstopped growth hadn't it been for what happened on 911. Far from us the idea of competing with AC, we've all seen what it's done before! As far as Air 2000 is concerned, AT already has about 70% of Signature's business, not too bad for a competitor. I don't think they want to give us 100% of their business, IMO.
Thing is that at AT we have never even wanted to cater solely to the business traveller, that's why we stick to the original plan, ie charter flights, and so far it has done us nothing but good... 15 years of unstopped growth hadn't it been for what happened on 911. Far from us the idea of competing with AC, we've all seen what it's done before! As far as Air 2000 is concerned, AT already has about 70% of Signature's business, not too bad for a competitor. I don't think they want to give us 100% of their business, IMO.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Request to use British carrier, crews still stands
By: Susan Pigg, business reporter
-----Toronto-based Skyservice Airlines Inc. will take over the leases on two Airbus A320s that have been parked at Pearson Airport since Canada 3000 unexpectedly grounded all its 38 aircraft last month.
The two aircraft will give Signature Vacations a "made-in-Canada solution" to getting thousands of travellers to sun destinations this winter, and fend off mounting opposition to its request for help from a British airline while 14,000 airline workers remain jobless in Canada, Signature said yesterday.
"As far as I'm concerned, it's done now, but it's a matter of dotting the I's and crossing the T's," said Grant DeMarsh, president of tour operations for Signature Vacations.
"We're at the point now where we know all of our customers are going to get their holidays."
Air Canada, Montreal-based Air Transat and Calgary-based WestJet Airlines will also pick up some of Signature's business, almost half of which had been handled by Canada 3000 before it went bankrupt Nov. 9.
But those airlines combined couldn't handle all of Signature's passengers and there were fears that bankruptcy proceedings aimed, in part, at returning Canada 3000's aircraft to their lessors were moving so slowly, Skyservice wouldn't be able to get some of the airplanes in time.
Some work is now being done on the planes, which are expected to fly vacationers to Mexico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic and Las Vegas between Dec. 20 and the end of April, said DeMarsh.
But, just in case, Signature has no plans to withdraw its controversial application before the Canadian Transportation Agency to have Signature's sister company, British charter carrier Air 2000 Ltd., place two Boeing 757s in Toronto and use its own crews to operate some flights to southern destinations.
"Until there's a bow around the whole thing (the new agreement with Skyservice), you don't want to cut off any avenues," DeMarsh said in a telephone interview yesterday.
That request to Ottawa had outraged other airlines and unions for the 14,000 pilots, flight attendants, baggage handlers, mechanics and other airline employees who are now without jobs because of the grounding of Canada 3000 and layoffs at other Canadian airlines like giant Air Canada and Air Transat.
"I believe it sets a dangerous precedent," said Jim Ballingall, vice-president of marketing and sales for 55-year-old First Air, which had protested the request to have a British carrier fly passengers out of Canada when there are so many carriers here - including First Air - that could help pick up the slack.
"You have a number of potential operators, potential investors, looking at buying parts of Canada 3000," and starting up new, although much smaller airlines, Ballingall said. "If the government allows foreign carriers to come in and take Canadians to sun destinations, which is a good portion of what Canada 3000 did, why would anyone start up (an airline) here?"
Air Canada had opposed the unusual application, saying it could further destabilize Canada's already fragile airline industry.
By: Susan Pigg, business reporter
-----Toronto-based Skyservice Airlines Inc. will take over the leases on two Airbus A320s that have been parked at Pearson Airport since Canada 3000 unexpectedly grounded all its 38 aircraft last month.
The two aircraft will give Signature Vacations a "made-in-Canada solution" to getting thousands of travellers to sun destinations this winter, and fend off mounting opposition to its request for help from a British airline while 14,000 airline workers remain jobless in Canada, Signature said yesterday.
"As far as I'm concerned, it's done now, but it's a matter of dotting the I's and crossing the T's," said Grant DeMarsh, president of tour operations for Signature Vacations.
"We're at the point now where we know all of our customers are going to get their holidays."
Air Canada, Montreal-based Air Transat and Calgary-based WestJet Airlines will also pick up some of Signature's business, almost half of which had been handled by Canada 3000 before it went bankrupt Nov. 9.
But those airlines combined couldn't handle all of Signature's passengers and there were fears that bankruptcy proceedings aimed, in part, at returning Canada 3000's aircraft to their lessors were moving so slowly, Skyservice wouldn't be able to get some of the airplanes in time.
Some work is now being done on the planes, which are expected to fly vacationers to Mexico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic and Las Vegas between Dec. 20 and the end of April, said DeMarsh.
But, just in case, Signature has no plans to withdraw its controversial application before the Canadian Transportation Agency to have Signature's sister company, British charter carrier Air 2000 Ltd., place two Boeing 757s in Toronto and use its own crews to operate some flights to southern destinations.
"Until there's a bow around the whole thing (the new agreement with Skyservice), you don't want to cut off any avenues," DeMarsh said in a telephone interview yesterday.
That request to Ottawa had outraged other airlines and unions for the 14,000 pilots, flight attendants, baggage handlers, mechanics and other airline employees who are now without jobs because of the grounding of Canada 3000 and layoffs at other Canadian airlines like giant Air Canada and Air Transat.
"I believe it sets a dangerous precedent," said Jim Ballingall, vice-president of marketing and sales for 55-year-old First Air, which had protested the request to have a British carrier fly passengers out of Canada when there are so many carriers here - including First Air - that could help pick up the slack.
"You have a number of potential operators, potential investors, looking at buying parts of Canada 3000," and starting up new, although much smaller airlines, Ballingall said. "If the government allows foreign carriers to come in and take Canadians to sun destinations, which is a good portion of what Canada 3000 did, why would anyone start up (an airline) here?"
Air Canada had opposed the unusual application, saying it could further destabilize Canada's already fragile airline industry.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Canada Pilots Oppose Application by British Charter Operator
12/13/2001 9:21:00 AM Yahoo News
The Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) announced today that they have written the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) to express their opposition to the application by Air 2000 to operate a charter operation from Canada. Air 2000, a carrier licensed in the United Kingdom, is seeking what is termed as 'fifth freedom' rights to operate in Canada and pick up and fly Canadians on vacation charters.
The Air Canada Pilots Association is concerned that the CTA would even consider such an application at a time the domestic airline industry is suffering from over-capacity and reduced passenger revenues in the wake of the events of September 11th.
12/13/2001 9:21:00 AM Yahoo News
The Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) announced today that they have written the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) to express their opposition to the application by Air 2000 to operate a charter operation from Canada. Air 2000, a carrier licensed in the United Kingdom, is seeking what is termed as 'fifth freedom' rights to operate in Canada and pick up and fly Canadians on vacation charters.
The Air Canada Pilots Association is concerned that the CTA would even consider such an application at a time the domestic airline industry is suffering from over-capacity and reduced passenger revenues in the wake of the events of September 11th.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: ex EGNM, now NZRO
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose the same Air Canada pilots complaining about Air 2000 coming in aren't moaning about the 767's of AC based at AKL doing the QANTAS AKL -SYD and AKL - MEL sectors - seems like they have picked up a nice earner at the demise of Ansett