Ek Cargo Fire
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Ek Cargo Fire
EK404 B777 DUBAI-SINGPORE-MELBOURNE OVER CHENNAI ( VOMM) FL 330 POB 398 AT 0250Z DECLARED MAYDAY CARGO FIRE. AT 0257 AFTER THEY HAVE USED AGAENTS,FIRE INDICATION WAS OUT. THAY ASKED TO HOLD AT FL330 UNTIL OPS ADVISE. AT 0308 MAYDAY AGAIN FIRE IS BACK STARTED DESCENT.WE LOST VHF AFTER THAT .
HOPE EVERY ONE ON BOARD IS OK
joe
HOPE EVERY ONE ON BOARD IS OK
joe
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As long as we don't know the story it's easy to blame. Maybe it was just a short warning and they had reasonable clues that it wasn't a real fire, why not asking maintenance center for an advice. They know more than a pilot. After you realize that you really have something, it's time to hurry.
Someone knows about the outcome?
Someone knows about the outcome?
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I would be passing FL 180 by the time the first warning went out, had this been me. Close to touch down when the second warning started, followed by evacuation a little later.
I will NEVER question a cargo fire warning.
I will NEVER question a cargo fire warning.
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Looks like they made it down to earth safely:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...ow?msid=208460
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...ow?msid=208460
Emergency landing for Emirates Airlines
SWATI DAS
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2003 10:42:19 PM ]
CHENNAI: Emirates Airline flight from Dubai to Singapore (EK-404) made an emergency landing at Meenambakkam airport here on Monday morning after smoke was detected in the luggage section while flying over the Indian peninsula.
All passengers (309) and 18 crew members aboard the flight had a miraculous escape after the smoke detection alert went off in the cargo section and the Boeing 777-300 was diverted to Chennai.
All the passengers and crew disembarked safely and were accommodated in hotels, according to a statement from the airline.
Apparently the plane crew had activated extinguishers immediately after the smoke alert in the cargo section. "The cause of the smoke is being investigated," the statement said.
Another Boeing 777-300 is expected to be flown from Dubai to arrive in Chennai at 8.10 pm IST with personnel and equipment "to fix the original aircraft". This replacement aircraft would pick up the passengers and continue to Singapore, departing from Chennai at 9.45 pm.
"Emirates regrets the inconvenience that the diversion has caused to the passengers and will do everything necessary to minimise it. The safety of our passengers and crew is paramount to Emirates and will never be compromised," the airline statement added.
SWATI DAS
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2003 10:42:19 PM ]
CHENNAI: Emirates Airline flight from Dubai to Singapore (EK-404) made an emergency landing at Meenambakkam airport here on Monday morning after smoke was detected in the luggage section while flying over the Indian peninsula.
All passengers (309) and 18 crew members aboard the flight had a miraculous escape after the smoke detection alert went off in the cargo section and the Boeing 777-300 was diverted to Chennai.
All the passengers and crew disembarked safely and were accommodated in hotels, according to a statement from the airline.
Apparently the plane crew had activated extinguishers immediately after the smoke alert in the cargo section. "The cause of the smoke is being investigated," the statement said.
Another Boeing 777-300 is expected to be flown from Dubai to arrive in Chennai at 8.10 pm IST with personnel and equipment "to fix the original aircraft". This replacement aircraft would pick up the passengers and continue to Singapore, departing from Chennai at 9.45 pm.
"Emirates regrets the inconvenience that the diversion has caused to the passengers and will do everything necessary to minimise it. The safety of our passengers and crew is paramount to Emirates and will never be compromised," the airline statement added.
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Dani, I think that you are totally wrong in this case. I have to agree with ManaAdaSystem. A cargo fire, or any fire for that matter is one of the worst things that can happen in an aircraft. If it is serious enough to declare Mayday, it is serious enough to get your ass on the ground as soon as possible, or even faster. After reading the transcript of the SR 111 accident, one of the very powerful lessons was how the crew was dealing with what seemed a very minor technical problem that very suddenly turned into a major crisis. You simply can't wait for some one in Operations to 'advise'. Dumping the aircraft into Chennai costs time, fuel, and perhaps embarrassment on the part of the crew if it turns out to be unnecessary. Compare those costs if you will with the cost to the SR 111 crew. Without diminishing for any moment the very real costs to the company involved in an emergency diversion, they simply pale into insignificance.
I have had the very unpleasant experience of cockpit smoke, resulting in a Mayday, and diving into Haneda in the middle of the night. 45 tonnes of fuel got dumped in the process, and we took a delay of 18 hours before getting to destination. As it happened, the diversion was 'unnecessary', as the smoke came from a fried rheostat which posed no fire threat. Upon return to the head office, the discussion with the 'powers that be' revolved around what I could have done differently that would have resulted in getting my craft on the ground sooner than the 18 minutes that it took me from FL330.
My personal opinion, and that of my employer is that fire indication is to be taken very seriously, and never delay the decision to get onto the ground due to any operational 'cost' factor. Without knowing the B777 checklist, I know that on my aircraft a fire indication means Land As Soon As Possible. There is no reference to 'ask Operations for guidance'. They called a Mayday, therefore I presume that they believed the threat was real. If hindsight reveals that there was no threat, then you are only out money and a red face. No big deal. Anyone who has flown professionally has had ample experience being embarrassed, and the money is the company's, not mine,and not yours.
I have had the very unpleasant experience of cockpit smoke, resulting in a Mayday, and diving into Haneda in the middle of the night. 45 tonnes of fuel got dumped in the process, and we took a delay of 18 hours before getting to destination. As it happened, the diversion was 'unnecessary', as the smoke came from a fried rheostat which posed no fire threat. Upon return to the head office, the discussion with the 'powers that be' revolved around what I could have done differently that would have resulted in getting my craft on the ground sooner than the 18 minutes that it took me from FL330.
My personal opinion, and that of my employer is that fire indication is to be taken very seriously, and never delay the decision to get onto the ground due to any operational 'cost' factor. Without knowing the B777 checklist, I know that on my aircraft a fire indication means Land As Soon As Possible. There is no reference to 'ask Operations for guidance'. They called a Mayday, therefore I presume that they believed the threat was real. If hindsight reveals that there was no threat, then you are only out money and a red face. No big deal. Anyone who has flown professionally has had ample experience being embarrassed, and the money is the company's, not mine,and not yours.
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I do agree with NOCTIVAGA. Why to wait for OPS decission when I fired a bottle? Why to waste time when the ship is on fire. I still have the SR pictures in my mind. There is no time to ask questions when you have that kind of warning. Maybe it´s a false one, but than they should ask the engineers how this can happen. Of course they will ask a lot of questions when you divert. But at the end of the day, it´s my ass sitting at FL 330 with that warning.
Forget about that "airmanship-thing", forget about money. In my checklists is a red ASAP - and I will follow. For me, the crew and the pax.
Forget about that "airmanship-thing", forget about money. In my checklists is a red ASAP - and I will follow. For me, the crew and the pax.
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>>...A cargo fire, or any fire for that matter is one of the worst things that can happen in an aircraft. If it is serious enough to declare Mayday, it is serious enough to get your ass on the ground as soon as possible, or even faster...<<
Amen brother, amen.
Cargo fire detectors have been known to be unreliable in humid climates, at least one incident was blamed on durians in the hold.
Still, even a third world airline like EK should have land ASAP as the first course of action. Let the geniuses on the ground figure out what happened.
AC, SR and others have learned the hard way about inflight fire warnings.
Amen brother, amen.
Cargo fire detectors have been known to be unreliable in humid climates, at least one incident was blamed on durians in the hold.
Still, even a third world airline like EK should have land ASAP as the first course of action. Let the geniuses on the ground figure out what happened.
AC, SR and others have learned the hard way about inflight fire warnings.
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It appears that both OEM's are moving over to Optical Smoke Detectors.
I have seen cases of Durians, fog (generated by the aircon) and insecticide setting the detectors off. There have been two cases of cargo fire bottles being discharged on landing/taxi-in in Hong Kong in the recent months - one SAA, one CPA, both A340-600's.
The fine fog that gets generated when the highly humid air gets into the cargo hold has been blamed in both cases.
Airbus are investigating, suggestions from them to ignore the warning for 10 seconds are not being warmly received, but looking at the pilot feedback, it looks like a 10 second confirm time is sufficient to weed out the spurious warnings and not have a significant effect on the outcome if it is a real fire.
I have seen cases of Durians, fog (generated by the aircon) and insecticide setting the detectors off. There have been two cases of cargo fire bottles being discharged on landing/taxi-in in Hong Kong in the recent months - one SAA, one CPA, both A340-600's.
The fine fog that gets generated when the highly humid air gets into the cargo hold has been blamed in both cases.
Airbus are investigating, suggestions from them to ignore the warning for 10 seconds are not being warmly received, but looking at the pilot feedback, it looks like a 10 second confirm time is sufficient to weed out the spurious warnings and not have a significant effect on the outcome if it is a real fire.
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From memory the investigators summize that the flight deck of SR 111 was uninhabitable after less than 11 minutes due to hot molten metal from the o/head panel falling down on the F/O's seat......if you take anything away from this tragedy take this..."when IT happens it will happen quick.....it will not be the drawn out process that we all go through every 6 months in the simulator"
This EK crew spend 8 minutes asking someone far removed from the problem for advice. Got to raise some questions in the least.
Furthermore, the SIN - DXB routing which passes overhead Madras involves some seriously large o/water distances........fortunately the smoke indication happened in the proximity of madras.......what if it had happened just west of Port Blair...or on the southern route which passes o/head Colombo to keep you out of the H/winds... where you are right on the edge of the 180 minute etops range.....a long way from the nearest peice of tarmac. Hear in lies the problem with pushing for greater etops distances........the engines may be sh1t hot but it isnt always an engine problem that forces the diversion.....the distance of which and thus by virtue the time to execute the diversion getting progressively longer as our regulatory authorities cave in to the demands of the number crunchers.
This EK crew spend 8 minutes asking someone far removed from the problem for advice. Got to raise some questions in the least.
Furthermore, the SIN - DXB routing which passes overhead Madras involves some seriously large o/water distances........fortunately the smoke indication happened in the proximity of madras.......what if it had happened just west of Port Blair...or on the southern route which passes o/head Colombo to keep you out of the H/winds... where you are right on the edge of the 180 minute etops range.....a long way from the nearest peice of tarmac. Hear in lies the problem with pushing for greater etops distances........the engines may be sh1t hot but it isnt always an engine problem that forces the diversion.....the distance of which and thus by virtue the time to execute the diversion getting progressively longer as our regulatory authorities cave in to the demands of the number crunchers.
Just cannot believe they went into the hold. Scary indeed.
They diverted in the end anyway, so why not do it ASAP ?
I regard EK as a high calibre safe airline, mind you, I thought the same about SWR.
They diverted in the end anyway, so why not do it ASAP ?
I regard EK as a high calibre safe airline, mind you, I thought the same about SWR.
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>>Educate yourself and take a trip to Dubai with EK. You will be very pleasantly surprised by both.<<
Been there, done that... EK and DXB are definitely third world!
Great airline, low wages, fine service. But definitely a tribal expat operation. No union, no job security, no bidding for schedules or fleets. A day off is when the phone doesn't ring. Not that there is anything wrong with that <g>.
Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they should go into holding to talk with ops with a cargo fire warning.
Been there, done that... EK and DXB are definitely third world!
Great airline, low wages, fine service. But definitely a tribal expat operation. No union, no job security, no bidding for schedules or fleets. A day off is when the phone doesn't ring. Not that there is anything wrong with that <g>.
Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they should go into holding to talk with ops with a cargo fire warning.
Last edited by Airbubba; 30th Sep 2003 at 08:22.
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Airlines that fly long international routes absolutely need to give their flight deck crews the benefit of the doubt with regards to such items as engine/cargo/cabin fires, flight control difficulties, etc. and not to call the company for every occurance.
As they are paid to do the job, they should be left alone to do exactly that...do the job, in accordance with approved procedures.
Hmm, maybe a good idea EK is advertising for direct entry Captains....they might actually learn some better ideas.
As they are paid to do the job, they should be left alone to do exactly that...do the job, in accordance with approved procedures.
Hmm, maybe a good idea EK is advertising for direct entry Captains....they might actually learn some better ideas.
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>>...Upon return to the head office, the discussion with the 'powers that be' revolved around what I could have done differently that would have resulted in getting my craft on the ground sooner than the 18 minutes that it took me from FL330.<<
That is certainly the emphasis of training scenarios in America in the wake of SR111 and the earlier FedEx 1406 fire at Newburgh, NY (see: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1998/AAR9803.pdf ).
>>Firewall, it doesn't matter whether you're flying an ETOPS a/c or not, if you have a serious no s&*t fire in the middle of the Bay of Bengal, or the Atlantic, or the Pacific, you're landing on the water (one way or another) whether you like it or not.<<
Yep, it is a different situation if you're at 30W. Then maybe those James Michener thirty minute fire of unknown origin checklists that we've done in the sim for so many years would be appropriate.
Here's an Indian news report indicating possible evidence that the fire was real:
__________________________________
Sparks on Emirates plane leads to panic
Monday, 29 September , 2003, 11:44
Chennai: An Emirates Airways airbus with 398 passengers and 16 member crew from Dubai to Singapore made an emergency landing here this morning, when pilots noticed sparks in the cargo area.
The flight made a safe landing at the Meenambakkam airport and fire personnel with the help from CISF and other airport officials, doused the sparks. However, there was no damage to the aircraft.
Only three leather bags in the cargo section were reduced to ashes as a result of the incident, airport sources said.
The flight has now been grounded and all the passengers have been accommodated in various nearby hotels and at the airport.
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13269077
That is certainly the emphasis of training scenarios in America in the wake of SR111 and the earlier FedEx 1406 fire at Newburgh, NY (see: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1998/AAR9803.pdf ).
>>Firewall, it doesn't matter whether you're flying an ETOPS a/c or not, if you have a serious no s&*t fire in the middle of the Bay of Bengal, or the Atlantic, or the Pacific, you're landing on the water (one way or another) whether you like it or not.<<
Yep, it is a different situation if you're at 30W. Then maybe those James Michener thirty minute fire of unknown origin checklists that we've done in the sim for so many years would be appropriate.
Here's an Indian news report indicating possible evidence that the fire was real:
__________________________________
Sparks on Emirates plane leads to panic
Monday, 29 September , 2003, 11:44
Chennai: An Emirates Airways airbus with 398 passengers and 16 member crew from Dubai to Singapore made an emergency landing here this morning, when pilots noticed sparks in the cargo area.
The flight made a safe landing at the Meenambakkam airport and fire personnel with the help from CISF and other airport officials, doused the sparks. However, there was no damage to the aircraft.
Only three leather bags in the cargo section were reduced to ashes as a result of the incident, airport sources said.
The flight has now been grounded and all the passengers have been accommodated in various nearby hotels and at the airport.
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13269077
Last edited by Airbubba; 30th Sep 2003 at 11:22.
A lot of very good advice and corrections given by a lot of very knowledgable fellas.
Interesting how this crew is to be taken to task on the hear say of a third observer at the limit of VHF coverage. There a lot of factors that non of us will know without waiting for an investigaton, and perhaps even letting those in the hot seat give a discription of what really happened.
Without knowing how far they were from the nearest airfield (best TAS for a 777-300 happens to be at F330!!!...hence quicker to airport, than say at F180 so quicker to land perhaps?) what the wx was like etc etc...I think its pretty petty to say they did wrong.
For information this third world airline has some very modern stuff. These airplanes download some very nice info to maintance on the ground at operations, and by contacting them (if you have time) you can find out a lot more information to help you make a decision.
But please do not let a lack of information of what really happened, stop you from jumping in with the what you would have done better stories.
I guess it would be unprofessional to wait to hear the facts first.
Interesting how this crew is to be taken to task on the hear say of a third observer at the limit of VHF coverage. There a lot of factors that non of us will know without waiting for an investigaton, and perhaps even letting those in the hot seat give a discription of what really happened.
Without knowing how far they were from the nearest airfield (best TAS for a 777-300 happens to be at F330!!!...hence quicker to airport, than say at F180 so quicker to land perhaps?) what the wx was like etc etc...I think its pretty petty to say they did wrong.
For information this third world airline has some very modern stuff. These airplanes download some very nice info to maintance on the ground at operations, and by contacting them (if you have time) you can find out a lot more information to help you make a decision.
But please do not let a lack of information of what really happened, stop you from jumping in with the what you would have done better stories.
I guess it would be unprofessional to wait to hear the facts first.