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Ba Engineers Reject Pay Offer

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Ba Engineers Reject Pay Offer

Old 13th Sep 2003, 07:04
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Ba Engineers Reject Pay Offer

BA's 5000 Engineers today rejected a 3% pay offer by 70%. This is the second time that the offer has been rejected. A similar offer was rejected by 97% a few months ago.
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 07:29
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So - they have received NO increases at all and the percentage against is slowly falling. Sure looks like a win for BigAirways to me.
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 17:34
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Sure looks like a win for BigAirways to me.
Any more of these 'wins' then Big Airways can call it a day - Engineers now on 2 weeks 'cooling off' period then vote on industrial action - if the vote is in favour senior management estimate loss of revenue of 30 Million even before any actual action.

Nobody 'wins' when staff walk out, I would have thought that was obvious after last time.
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 18:49
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OK SF I know you are an engineer .. so how about some support mate ? The signing in and out is a small proportion of what the management want to sh@ft us with..... you really need to look at the whole package to see the " Big " picture !
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 19:19
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Remind me was it Sabena went on strike the week before going bankrupt?
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 19:43
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One has to wonder if BA is not moving towards a terminal phase. Lets not forget that most BA staff are on incremental pay scales so they get a raise every year in addition to anything that comes from a pay deal. Its pay rates are probably the best in the UK industry, like for like, its allowances higher than anyone elses and , whatever anyone says , it is generally a " soft" employer in a very tough world where its costs remain resolutely too high right across the board, management, staff, facilities, the lot. Everybody is included.
This years result on its massive capital and revenue could well be a loss which means that the money would be better off in the piggy bank where it would at least earn 3% or so. If ,against that background, its staff feel that this is a time for a pay war,- which will destroy customer confidence ,-then its probably time to call it a day and move to the new world. If neither the staff nor the customers are going to love it as a service business then it has a very doubtful future.
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 20:02
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Skylion,
Do you get broadband on Mars or are you on one of Jupiters moons? You certainly are not on this planet!

Incremental pay rises? They are capped, so if you have been with the company more than about 7 years you don't get any more. Also each incremental band takes you into a different grade with more responsibility and also requires that you are trained up to take on more work. They are not automatic..not these days anyway.

This current dispute is more to do with introducing more responsibility and increasing workload than a pay rise, most of the engineers I talk to would, considering the financial position of the company, forego a pay rise as long as the working practices were not so brutally altered.

Other depts in the company have had a 3% pay rise without any strings attached!

Come on BA pull your finger out. I like many other employees am a shareholder and don't need another 40M knocked out of the company.

Get it sorted!!
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 20:59
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I would like to express support for the Engineers, they are safety critical, professional staff who need their working practices to be on the safe side of the fatigue scale.

Anyone who ever reads a CHIRP report can see that engineering departments are constantly chipping away at their employees trying to increase their productivity.

Airlines need Pilots, Cabin Crew & Engineers to enable them to get the aircraft airbourne. What they do not need is endless middle managers trying to feather their own nests by vainly trying to screw those under them into working themselves silly.

The Engineers, like the Pilots are not the problem in BA. Their own management however, is part of the problem.

The airline world is a victim of modern living to some extent. Leglislature ensures that large companies have H&S departments, employment lawyers etc. who contrubute little to the bottom line other than prevent the company being sued every five minutes. I can think of at least one low cost carrier operating in the UK (but with an AOC based elsewhere, I think) that appears to care less about such issues and therefore finds it easier to improve their bottom line. I bet they doen't have feng shui consultants and rivers running through the supermarket in their head office either.
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Old 13th Sep 2003, 21:50
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NN,

Waterworld does still have a river in its head-office, and I've no doubt that feng-shui consultants were brought in to advise on the supermarket's location. However...

That was all many years ago, when Waterside was first built. In the days BA made profits, the staff were proud to wear the uniform and BA was the one offering its consultants to Olympic - because BA knew how to make money. Let me assure you, they're not there any more and haven't been for many years.

These days the whole aviation environment is very different. I'm not denying that there is probably too much middle management, too much interfering and poor TU relationships, but on the opposite side there are still large number of people who work at BA who are unwilling to change their working practices and still want to carry on in the same way.

That's not to say that BA should be able to do what it likes, just that change must occur within BA for it to survive and whatever department you work in, from HR to IM to Enginerring, staff are most reluctant to change. On some occasions I would agree they are right to resist, but the fact still remains that as a company, BA staff are still very slow to change.

Every time news about Concorde FE's or Engineers or Check-in staff (or in previous years CC and IM staff) proposing to strike comes out, it must be music to the ears of BA's competitors. For those of us left within the firm who aren't striking, it just makes the future recovery all the harder. We have mouths to feed and mortgages to pay too you know!
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 01:42
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Unhappy

Why can't we as an industry ever stand shoulder to shoulder over pay and conditions for anyone other than me, myself and I?

When will people understand that when others improve their pay and conditions it will filter down to them eventually?

When will we realise that when others have their T's and C's eroded that affects us too, eventually?

Row in and back up your buddies, comparisons to Sabena are financially very mis-matched and should be left out of this.
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 03:45
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ojs there aren't many engineers in waterworld . mate !
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 04:43
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Sounds like they're a bunch of greedy, whining d cks who need to join the real world....

All strikes and unions do is bankrupt the companies that pay the mortgages for the employees, oh and don't forget the honest innocent customers.

If you don't like it ,vote with your feet and leave and enter the real modern world that the rest of us live in......or are you all scared to!!!!!

Good luck anyway, i think you're all gonna need it
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 06:14
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"Sounds like they're a bunch of greedy, whining d cks who need to join the real world...."

A tad harsh. I think if you ask any BA engineer, there has always been a 'them and us' culture at BA where the engineers, who at the end of the day, keep the big jets serviceable, often in conditions the rest of us wouldn't enjoy (fancy clearing a blocked B747 toilet?) to enable everyone else to do their job, are looked down upon.

I think you'll find that their a bunch of realists at the end of the day, who no doubt think, (dare I add, like the majority of professional pilots on this forum who often have not got a kind word for any of the inhabitants in Waterworld), that BA are shooting the ammunition at the wrong people.
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 09:18
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Perhaps a few of the pilots here would like to be handed a wrench (opps...spanner) and told to go on out and fix the aeroplane, in the driving cold rain...only to find out that the boneheads in the pointy end did not put the discrepancy in the tech log properly in the first place.

In my experience, ground engineers are worth every penny they are paid...unlike some pilots I have personally known over the years whose only claim to fame is warming the seat...and cashing the often too large pay check.

In short, give 'em the next pay raise that was intended for pilots.
And to pilots...if these mechanics don't fix the bird right...you're toast.
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 11:02
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411A , too late - the pilots already had their payrise earlier this year.
A rebalancing of what went to who, but some ended up with an 18 % rise .
makes 3% look paltry in comparison, huh?

And M.Mouse, as far as i understand it, it was Swiss not paying back a loan , not the engineers , and i quote :
"Further to this SABENA was owed 84 million by the Swiss airline Swissair. After Swissair stopped operations on 2nd October 2001 and refused to repay the money SABENA was forced to stop flying. They filed for legal protection against their creditors on 3rd October."
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 15:34
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Yes 411 I agree

It is interesting to note that Sabena and SR Technic continue as profitable concerns.

I regularly interact with the engineering departments of just about every airline in the world and I find the people not only more informed but more friendly than their head office colleagues
Their CEO's pick up the phone and call you rather than delegating some flunky. CC could learn a lot from them in how to talk to people
Engineers as always never get the respect that is due them but through third party work, engineering departments are often the only profitable part of an airline, but that is never mentioned.

I will be at MRO Cardiff this coming week where Ron Eddington is scheduled to speak. Given this latest news it should be a lot more interesting
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 15:49
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Sabena was in debt for whatever reason. Sabena staff went on strike. Sabena collapsed.

BA is in debt (around 5billion at the last count). BA engineers are now threatening to strike. BA is immune to market forces.

The 18% that BA pilots achieved was such a good deal that over 1000 BA pilots needed pay protection to avoid losing any money. Unlike many they almost unanimously voted to accept the deal because it was a massive restructuring which the company wanted and was beneficial to all long term. Oh, and by the way pilots didn't threaten to strike for it either.
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 17:38
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Surely this is a rejection of a pay offer and not a vote for strike action. So it's a bit premature to talk about strikes.

I would imagine that over the next few weeks there is going to be a bit more dialogue between the unions and the company and a deal will be struck.

I think the company has been working all departments very hard and their style of management seems to be one of pushing people to the wire. The're only playing the game like the staff , by seeing how far things can be taken and when to ease up.

Sometimes people and organisations misjudge when to stop and that's when the tears and recriminations start.
 
Old 14th Sep 2003, 18:49
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NearlyNigel,you are dead right.Here at Ryanair we have none of the BA 'Bollockology' [as our illustrious leader calls it],just an engineering dept full of well paid and,in the main,contented engineer's.
I would love to see the ratio of office worker's to hands on engineer's and mechanics at Ryanair,compared to the same ratio at BA.Also,before anyone starts about the quality of the [engineering] product,I think our list of deferred defects across the fleet would stand up to comparison against any airline in the world.
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Old 14th Sep 2003, 20:56
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mainfrog2

I would imagine that over the next few weeks there is going to be a bit more dialogue between the unions and the company and a deal will be struck.
One would hope so - but remember this is the second rejection of the pay offer - after the first rejection, the offer was tweaked slightly (almost nothing changed) and then management stated that this was their final offer and refused to talk any further.

So hopefully management will come back to the table, but I wouldn't bet my pension deficit on it.

Begs the question from other employee groups - what would you do if management refused to enter into negotiations about your T & C's? - roll over ?

Anyway look on the bright side, next month we start discussions on the 2004 pay claim
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