easyCommands at EasyJet!!!
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Hi Guys, I thought I would add my 2 penneth to hopefully set the record straight. Firstly as Norman Stanley says having the hours doesn't mean an automatic jump to the left seat. Secondly I think the command selection / assessment process is fair. The assessment contains 3 days flying with different instructors and candidates are expected to show they have the ability to be TRAINED as a captain. If a guy/gal can't fly London to Scotland and back without a fuss then they really shouldn’t be there! The next part is a loft exercise in the sim operating in the left seat, again common sense should prevail. As Mr. klink also correctly states that you can expect to be quizzed on sops and tech stuff, if guys turn up without reading the books well what can I say, you must know certain things fuel policies etc. Can you imagine arriving in the hold with cmr thinking errrr how much is the min fuel we can arrive with! Not good enough.
What I’m really trying to say is that if you've done your homework, read the books, the sectors should go ok and you make sensible decisions in the sim then there should be no problem.
Getting a command at easy aint easy and why should it be?
What I’m really trying to say is that if you've done your homework, read the books, the sectors should go ok and you make sensible decisions in the sim then there should be no problem.
Getting a command at easy aint easy and why should it be?
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I think there are some wise words on here. I have not the slightest doubt that easyJet, in common with all UK airlines, are maintaining the highest standards in command training. They simply have no choice as one accident could destroy them. They do, however, have a problem regarding recruitment. In their ideal world they would love a load of current, type-rated Captains to turn up. I personally do not believe that they will be able to recruit the numbers of these guys/gals they need as most Captains will want to stay put where they are.
The next ideal is to promote from within. As has already been stated, easyJet have a number of 737 guys with the hours, but as any Airbus pilot will tell you, it would not be prudent to promote and convert to a new type simultaneously. At the risk of igniting the 737/Airbus debate, anyone who has flown an Airbus will tell you that it is a great leveller. To an extent it does not matter what you have done previously - the Airbus is a whole new world. It is not necessarily harder - but it is certainly different from anything most people will have flown previously, and therefore the ideal is to get hold of experienced people to ensure you have a certain level of expertise within the fleet. My own view is that a recipe for disaster would be to have loads of new Captains straight from a 737 with new FOs who may be new to airline flying full stop! That is not to disparage anyone's abilities but to recognise that, paritcularly with the Airbus, experience is very useful.
That leads us to the 'third way' which is to recruit externally from the ranks of experienced FOs. In the UK right now there are a lot of Airbus FOs who are going nowhere with their own company for the foreseeable future becuase of seniority lists and no fleet expansion. These folks are inevitably extremely attractive to someone who needs a lot of experience quickly like easyJet. The question is - will they go? I do not really know the answer to that but I do know that in my company it is almost impossible to find a single FO who will admit to applying to easyJet. That is not to say they do not exist - but if they do they are keeping themselves well hidden! So, who will go? I would guess that junior guys with low hours will not necessarily look at it because they know that they will have to pay off their bond at their current company and only end up going to the RHS again until they get 3000 factored hours. Even then they have absolutely no guarantees of promotion then because easyJet do not operate a seniority list themselves and may simply recruit externally for captains again. In changing companies mid-stream, they give up their place on the seniority list and take on a bigger risk with a less secure company than their own. Finally, as other contributors have already highlighted, you can fall foul of 'the system' very easily at easyJet and therefore it is a big risk for no obvious return.
The next group will be highly experienced Airbus FOs who are just about nibbling at a command in their own company already. They know they would be foolish to give it all up for a possible command in an unfamiliar training environment when they are almost there anyway. These guys will just sit tight and wait theri turn where they are.
That leaves the group who easyJet will most likely attract. These are people at the wrong end of a seniority list for whatever reason, who have between 4000 and 5000 hours (1000 tp 2000 Airbus) and who therefore just make the 3000 factored hours. Personally I think these are good people and are very fertile material for recruitment. They, however, have to weigh up the risks of going to a new company where they are not known, and may face hostile trainers who want to make a point. As we all know, if someone wants to give you a hard time in the simulator they can do it very easily, and on a command course you are very vulnerable. It is by no means an easy or certain path for the budding commander, and would have to be weighed up very carefully before embarking upon.
As a final comment, it is worth pointing out that I know of a number of Airbus-rated people who seem to be ideal for the job and have applied to easyJet recently via the web who have not so much of a sniff of an interview. They have had the round-robin 'Are you 737 or Airbus rated?' e-mail but could not reply because the system would not accept it. Other than the roadshows therefore, which not everyone can attend because they are away flying Airbuses!!, there is no method of contacting the company. Their database system does not seem to be able to recognise type-rated pilots as they are having to send these general e-mails round rather than just contact the people they really need to. All very strange!
The next ideal is to promote from within. As has already been stated, easyJet have a number of 737 guys with the hours, but as any Airbus pilot will tell you, it would not be prudent to promote and convert to a new type simultaneously. At the risk of igniting the 737/Airbus debate, anyone who has flown an Airbus will tell you that it is a great leveller. To an extent it does not matter what you have done previously - the Airbus is a whole new world. It is not necessarily harder - but it is certainly different from anything most people will have flown previously, and therefore the ideal is to get hold of experienced people to ensure you have a certain level of expertise within the fleet. My own view is that a recipe for disaster would be to have loads of new Captains straight from a 737 with new FOs who may be new to airline flying full stop! That is not to disparage anyone's abilities but to recognise that, paritcularly with the Airbus, experience is very useful.
That leads us to the 'third way' which is to recruit externally from the ranks of experienced FOs. In the UK right now there are a lot of Airbus FOs who are going nowhere with their own company for the foreseeable future becuase of seniority lists and no fleet expansion. These folks are inevitably extremely attractive to someone who needs a lot of experience quickly like easyJet. The question is - will they go? I do not really know the answer to that but I do know that in my company it is almost impossible to find a single FO who will admit to applying to easyJet. That is not to say they do not exist - but if they do they are keeping themselves well hidden! So, who will go? I would guess that junior guys with low hours will not necessarily look at it because they know that they will have to pay off their bond at their current company and only end up going to the RHS again until they get 3000 factored hours. Even then they have absolutely no guarantees of promotion then because easyJet do not operate a seniority list themselves and may simply recruit externally for captains again. In changing companies mid-stream, they give up their place on the seniority list and take on a bigger risk with a less secure company than their own. Finally, as other contributors have already highlighted, you can fall foul of 'the system' very easily at easyJet and therefore it is a big risk for no obvious return.
The next group will be highly experienced Airbus FOs who are just about nibbling at a command in their own company already. They know they would be foolish to give it all up for a possible command in an unfamiliar training environment when they are almost there anyway. These guys will just sit tight and wait theri turn where they are.
That leaves the group who easyJet will most likely attract. These are people at the wrong end of a seniority list for whatever reason, who have between 4000 and 5000 hours (1000 tp 2000 Airbus) and who therefore just make the 3000 factored hours. Personally I think these are good people and are very fertile material for recruitment. They, however, have to weigh up the risks of going to a new company where they are not known, and may face hostile trainers who want to make a point. As we all know, if someone wants to give you a hard time in the simulator they can do it very easily, and on a command course you are very vulnerable. It is by no means an easy or certain path for the budding commander, and would have to be weighed up very carefully before embarking upon.
As a final comment, it is worth pointing out that I know of a number of Airbus-rated people who seem to be ideal for the job and have applied to easyJet recently via the web who have not so much of a sniff of an interview. They have had the round-robin 'Are you 737 or Airbus rated?' e-mail but could not reply because the system would not accept it. Other than the roadshows therefore, which not everyone can attend because they are away flying Airbuses!!, there is no method of contacting the company. Their database system does not seem to be able to recognise type-rated pilots as they are having to send these general e-mails round rather than just contact the people they really need to. All very strange!
Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 4th Sep 2003 at 06:36.
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Nice post, Norman. Sums it up very well 
in all European Airbus operators there will undoubtedly be a few people with extensive experience who find themselves who find themselves unable to get commands for whatever reason. It will be interesting to see how many actually come out of the woodwork. My guess is not enough for Easyjet.
It will also be interesting to see whether Easyjet undertake the selection of the F/o's for DEC themselves or whether they pass it on to the Aviation Fame Academy. That could open another can of worms as seen before on these forums.
Even with the bus on your licence, a DEC would be no walk in the Park. There's new ops manual's and procedures to get to grips with very quickly on top of the command course.
For what it's worth I fit the profile and would bite their hand off. Don't hear the phone ringing though
Looks like another winter on the Tango's for me
in all European Airbus operators there will undoubtedly be a few people with extensive experience who find themselves who find themselves unable to get commands for whatever reason. It will be interesting to see how many actually come out of the woodwork. My guess is not enough for Easyjet.
It will also be interesting to see whether Easyjet undertake the selection of the F/o's for DEC themselves or whether they pass it on to the Aviation Fame Academy. That could open another can of worms as seen before on these forums.
Even with the bus on your licence, a DEC would be no walk in the Park. There's new ops manual's and procedures to get to grips with very quickly on top of the command course.
For what it's worth I fit the profile and would bite their hand off. Don't hear the phone ringing though
Looks like another winter on the Tango's for me
I would rather suspect that "the comparatively low" figure of 3000 hours for an easyJet command is actually the figure agreed between easyJet and their underwriters.
If this figure was considered too low by the insurers then the premium would be astronomical. Having said that, it is not unknown for the underwriters to accept pilots with a bit less experience, on an individual basis, provided that the other 99% of the pilots aren't breaking aeroplanes every day.
I note from my logbooks that I had the princely sum of 1563 hours when I first went off on my own in command of a 4-engined transport aircraft. Touch wood, I have never broken anything since, however I was well and expensively trained and working for Mrs Windsor at the time.
If this figure was considered too low by the insurers then the premium would be astronomical. Having said that, it is not unknown for the underwriters to accept pilots with a bit less experience, on an individual basis, provided that the other 99% of the pilots aren't breaking aeroplanes every day.
I note from my logbooks that I had the princely sum of 1563 hours when I first went off on my own in command of a 4-engined transport aircraft. Touch wood, I have never broken anything since, however I was well and expensively trained and working for Mrs Windsor at the time.
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JW411
I think one of the points being made here is that the 3000 hours is factored and therefore those with these 3000 hours have a lot of experience and are not relatively inexperienced. Many may have well over 4000. We're all plesed for you I'm sure on your low hours to command though - how many passengers were in the back? Was it on a jet?
cheers
SK
I think one of the points being made here is that the 3000 hours is factored and therefore those with these 3000 hours have a lot of experience and are not relatively inexperienced. Many may have well over 4000. We're all plesed for you I'm sure on your low hours to command though - how many passengers were in the back? Was it on a jet?
cheers
SK
silverknapper:
I think you missed my point. I was suggesting that anyone with 3000 hours (especially factored) should not really be considered inexperienced.
Alloy:
I never flew for TQF and the BAe146 had not even been thought of then!
I think you missed my point. I was suggesting that anyone with 3000 hours (especially factored) should not really be considered inexperienced.
Alloy:
I never flew for TQF and the BAe146 had not even been thought of then!
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Easy roadshow - MAN
Was anything said that you cannot find on their website?
Were they focusing on Bus drivers?
Are they aware of the significant number of disgruntled miniBus drivers in BHX?
Were they focusing on Bus drivers?
Are they aware of the significant number of disgruntled miniBus drivers in BHX?
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Well, I went there yesterday in MAN and mainly found out that there would not be any advantage for me at the time although my current employer is not at the top of the salary list at all. There would be, however, the selection, the conversion, another probationary period....
I can't see any reason to change.
I can't see any reason to change.
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Flex
Check out the easyJet command thread. I think you'll be sorely disappointed jumping from your current employer to eJ. Just for a little more cash you'll be seriously screwed.
Check out the easyJet command thread. I think you'll be sorely disappointed jumping from your current employer to eJ. Just for a little more cash you'll be seriously screwed.
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new jobs !
This must be a very encouraging thread for the guys with a new FATPL as movement at the top of the market will undoubtedly mean new jobs at the bottom of the market.
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They've done it before
Back in 97-98, eJ recruited plenty of DECs from SFO positions with other airlines - many of them are still with the company and some are Trg Capts now. The eJ Flightcrew Trg Dept is widely recognised as being one the best in the business, they are professional and thorough. In particular, their Command Upgrade course is especially well thought out with an excellent success rate.
Under the eJ hours factorising system, 3000 factored, works out to around 4500 total in most cases - remarkably similar to most other UK airlines when it comes to min hours for Command Suitability.
Current eJ SFOs will not be adversely affected by the scheme as there are 12 SFOs on every Command Course going through at the moment - they will have done 70 upgrades so far by the end of this year and they plan to do another 110 plus by Oct '04. Every eJ SFO with 3000+ Fact hrs will be assessed - the first part of the assessment is done by the Base Capt at base level from 2500 hrs onwards.
If you are on a seniority list and stationary with say 5 years to command, what have you got to lose? eJ'S selection process is v. thorough & they will not offer you a position unless they are certain that you could make it through the CMD CSE with ease anyway. Also the salary jump would be worthwhile £65k basic with £8k+ sector pay.
Of course you could sit tight for the 5 years in the company you are with and maybe get a go at your Command in 2008. Mind you it could all have changed then - the company could have gone bust for example. In which case, in five years time when you are looking back, eJ's offer could seem quite attractive. Food for thought.
Under the eJ hours factorising system, 3000 factored, works out to around 4500 total in most cases - remarkably similar to most other UK airlines when it comes to min hours for Command Suitability.
Current eJ SFOs will not be adversely affected by the scheme as there are 12 SFOs on every Command Course going through at the moment - they will have done 70 upgrades so far by the end of this year and they plan to do another 110 plus by Oct '04. Every eJ SFO with 3000+ Fact hrs will be assessed - the first part of the assessment is done by the Base Capt at base level from 2500 hrs onwards.
If you are on a seniority list and stationary with say 5 years to command, what have you got to lose? eJ'S selection process is v. thorough & they will not offer you a position unless they are certain that you could make it through the CMD CSE with ease anyway. Also the salary jump would be worthwhile £65k basic with £8k+ sector pay.
Of course you could sit tight for the 5 years in the company you are with and maybe get a go at your Command in 2008. Mind you it could all have changed then - the company could have gone bust for example. In which case, in five years time when you are looking back, eJ's offer could seem quite attractive. Food for thought.
Sqn Ldr Weather, nobody denies that there are good command prospects at Easy, or that the Command Cse is thorough. However, what is in doubt is the selection procedure. Different base captains have different requirements, there is no organized list of who has what factored hours or where each FO stands in the pecking order. The general perception on line is one of right place right time, not a structured process.
Quite simply nobody knows where they stand with the current haphazard system. We need published lists of who is where in the command system, not just the random nature of a name being at the top of one pile or the bottom of another.
The current system is flawed and chaotic.
As for new DEC's how are they going to be assessed? 45mins in the sim with a CTC instructor and an hours interview? That is hardly comparable to what internal candidates go through all of who will be familiar faces to Easyjet trainers, with a known track record and training file down the road. The current setup needs to be more structured and transparent so that everybody can see it is fair. I have no axe to grind....yet, but the bun fight at present leaves much to be desired.
Quite simply nobody knows where they stand with the current haphazard system. We need published lists of who is where in the command system, not just the random nature of a name being at the top of one pile or the bottom of another.
The current system is flawed and chaotic.
As for new DEC's how are they going to be assessed? 45mins in the sim with a CTC instructor and an hours interview? That is hardly comparable to what internal candidates go through all of who will be familiar faces to Easyjet trainers, with a known track record and training file down the road. The current setup needs to be more structured and transparent so that everybody can see it is fair. I have no axe to grind....yet, but the bun fight at present leaves much to be desired.
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All pilots have access to their training reports therefore i am sure easyjet will require a written record of all past base checks and line checks before any job offer is made.
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Not in the Middle East.
In fact there was a strong rumour that you had two files!
One if they wanted to defend you and the other if they wished to justify their treatment of you or indeed send you on your way.
In fact there was a strong rumour that you had two files!
One if they wanted to defend you and the other if they wished to justify their treatment of you or indeed send you on your way.
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Have heard from admittedly a friend of a friend that easyjet have put 3 new guys up for command with only about one or two hundred hours each on jets. Also other new joiners in the RHS have been handpicked to jump straight to the LHS immediately after joining.
Is this true? Does'nt seem to thorough to me.
More like desperate
Is this true? Does'nt seem to thorough to me.
More like desperate
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It all sounds very interesting all these airbuses arriving from september onwards.
Has anybody any thoughts / ideas on where EasyJet plan to do their pilot training ?
Surely the UK competitors owning their own sims won't want to play ball ??
Has anybody any thoughts / ideas on where EasyJet plan to do their pilot training ?
Surely the UK competitors owning their own sims won't want to play ball ??
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Min hours for command
Our operator in North America holds 4000 as a minimum to be considered for First Officer (737NG). A full season on type then required for command.
Supply and demand I guess.
Supply and demand I guess.