Swiss pilots given inaccurate maps?
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Swiss pilots given inaccurate maps?
Spotted in today's Times: News Quiz. The answer to Q3 "Which airline admitted that its pilots were given inaccurate maps?" is "Swiss".
Although the questions are usually based on articles from the previous day's edition, online searches of Times Online and Google have failed to find anything. Anyone know more? Surely The Thunderer can't have got it wrong!
Although the questions are usually based on articles from the previous day's edition, online searches of Times Online and Google have failed to find anything. Anyone know more? Surely The Thunderer can't have got it wrong!
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From the (BHR) Gulf Daily News:
Vol XXVI NO. 158 Monday 25 August 2003
Swiss airline defends faulty maps for pilots
A Swiss airline admitted yesterday that inaccurate navigation maps were being supplied to its pilots, but insisted that passenger safety was not compromised. "Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can call air traffic control," said Dominik Werner, spokesman for airline Swiss.
He was reacting to reports on the faulty maps in the Swiss Sunday newspapers Le Matin Dimanche and SonntagsBlick. The two papers pointed out printing errors for radio frequencies and guidance signals, approach angles and landing altitudes.
Peter Nussbaumer, a federal air accident investigator, had concluded that navigation maps had a direct relation to aircraft safety.
The spokesman for Swiss said there was absolutely no danger to passengers as a result of discrepancies appearing on maps to some European destinations, adding that the airline had no plans to rectify the errors.
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/arc_A...&IssueID=26158
Vol XXVI NO. 158 Monday 25 August 2003
Swiss airline defends faulty maps for pilots
A Swiss airline admitted yesterday that inaccurate navigation maps were being supplied to its pilots, but insisted that passenger safety was not compromised. "Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can call air traffic control," said Dominik Werner, spokesman for airline Swiss.
He was reacting to reports on the faulty maps in the Swiss Sunday newspapers Le Matin Dimanche and SonntagsBlick. The two papers pointed out printing errors for radio frequencies and guidance signals, approach angles and landing altitudes.
Peter Nussbaumer, a federal air accident investigator, had concluded that navigation maps had a direct relation to aircraft safety.
The spokesman for Swiss said there was absolutely no danger to passengers as a result of discrepancies appearing on maps to some European destinations, adding that the airline had no plans to rectify the errors.
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/arc_A...&IssueID=26158
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Ah yes, the new charts. One more blessing of the wonderful self proclaimed Swissair safety culture. 
Strange, I haven´t seen any action from the Swiss Aviation Authorities (BAZL) yet...
They appear to be more concerned about other things now.
Strange, I haven´t seen any action from the Swiss Aviation Authorities (BAZL) yet...
They appear to be more concerned about other things now.
Last edited by Robert Vesco; 27th Aug 2003 at 11:20.
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BAZL and KLOTEN and LUGANO
Robert Vesco
Can anyone offer a reasonable translation of that article (and tie it in with this one perhaps?
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/lugano.html
Can anyone offer a reasonable translation of that article (and tie it in with this one perhaps?
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/lugano.html
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Here is a link in English.
In a nutshell: starting September 1st, the Saab 2000 is restricted from flying into Lugano because of the steep approach.
Coincidence? Even Swiss people are getting suspicious...
In a nutshell: starting September 1st, the Saab 2000 is restricted from flying into Lugano because of the steep approach.
The national carrier, Swiss, recently decided to pull out of Lugano, but at least three other airlines have announced plans to launch flight operations from southern Switzerland.
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i know that 'Cargolux' are using these charts from 'Swiss' .
how do you guys find these charts to use?
how do they compare to airad or jepps.
also i was told that cargolux share charts between pilots and do not ave a set each to refer to.is this correct?how about in the sim?is it the same,one chart to share for 2 pilots?
sounds a bit difficult to operate to me.
how do you guys find these charts to use?
how do they compare to airad or jepps.
also i was told that cargolux share charts between pilots and do not ave a set each to refer to.is this correct?how about in the sim?is it the same,one chart to share for 2 pilots?
sounds a bit difficult to operate to me.
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The story is a bit different to what the papers say.
Lido (that's the name of the product) is the follower of old Swissair charts, which had a great reputation, used by SAS, KLM, Singapore and many other operators. Then Swissair went and Lido was created.
The maps are actually very very accurate and very colourful. Whether the later is an advantage or not has to be answered by everyone individually. The problem came when Swiss decided to give the charts not only to the ex-Swr pilots but also to the ex-Crx pilots, who used Jeppesen instead. Since Crossair used to fly to other destinations than Swissair, Cargolux and Singapore, they had to redraw a lot of charts (basically whole Europe). Swiss is flying into very complex airports like Lugano, London-City, Berne and others, so it was a tremendous work to do. Swiss is always quick in announcing news but has rather problems in finishing projects, they threw the charts into the cockpit in a great hurry - and that's the result.
The charts are full of typing errors, sometimes ILS freqs wrong and stuff like this. It's not a big safetyproblem since we know the Jeppesens by heart. But it's really a nuissance.
Lido (that's the name of the product) is the follower of old Swissair charts, which had a great reputation, used by SAS, KLM, Singapore and many other operators. Then Swissair went and Lido was created.
The maps are actually very very accurate and very colourful. Whether the later is an advantage or not has to be answered by everyone individually. The problem came when Swiss decided to give the charts not only to the ex-Swr pilots but also to the ex-Crx pilots, who used Jeppesen instead. Since Crossair used to fly to other destinations than Swissair, Cargolux and Singapore, they had to redraw a lot of charts (basically whole Europe). Swiss is flying into very complex airports like Lugano, London-City, Berne and others, so it was a tremendous work to do. Swiss is always quick in announcing news but has rather problems in finishing projects, they threw the charts into the cockpit in a great hurry - and that's the result.
The charts are full of typing errors, sometimes ILS freqs wrong and stuff like this. It's not a big safetyproblem since we know the Jeppesens by heart. But it's really a nuissance.
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Thanks Dani,
Seems to make more sense than some of the ballyhoo above.
By the way, years back the New Zealand Antarctic crash investigation did find that mistakes in the Nav Data Base - provided by Swissair in those days - could have been a contributing factor.
Publication/data base contracts are nice to get but are a heck of a responsibility. I have seen imperfect Jepps and Japanese charts too, for that matter.
Seems to make more sense than some of the ballyhoo above.
By the way, years back the New Zealand Antarctic crash investigation did find that mistakes in the Nav Data Base - provided by Swissair in those days - could have been a contributing factor.
Publication/data base contracts are nice to get but are a heck of a responsibility. I have seen imperfect Jepps and Japanese charts too, for that matter.
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What I know is that they changed their Jeppesen maps not a long time ago for a strange kind a never seen....
One advantage is that I could buy a complet set of 5 books for europe, with the latest revision, for 30 suisse francs, wich makes about 12 pounds... they sold about 80 sets of them for that price.
One advantage is that I could buy a complet set of 5 books for europe, with the latest revision, for 30 suisse francs, wich makes about 12 pounds... they sold about 80 sets of them for that price.
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From The Times (Business Section) 25th August
Swiss admits to errors
Swiss International Air Lines confirmed reports that navigation
maps supplied to its pilots contained errors, but the carrier
insisted that passenger safety was not compromised. An
investigation by Swiss newspapers found errors in data
contained on the maps relating to radio frequencies, guidance
signals and approach angles. A spokesman for Swiss said:
"Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can
call air traffic control." There are no plans to change the maps.
Swiss admits to errors
Swiss International Air Lines confirmed reports that navigation
maps supplied to its pilots contained errors, but the carrier
insisted that passenger safety was not compromised. An
investigation by Swiss newspapers found errors in data
contained on the maps relating to radio frequencies, guidance
signals and approach angles. A spokesman for Swiss said:
"Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can
call air traffic control." There are no plans to change the maps.
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Swiss pilots given inaccurate maps? - by whom?
Swiss may do some strange things from time to time - but you can't them blame for everything!
From the homepage of LIDO (the company providing the maps):
Lido Lufthansa Aeronautical Services GmbH
Lido Lufthansa Aeronautical Services ist ein erfahrener Partner von internationalen Fluggesellschaften für alle Aspekte der operationellen Flugplanung: Ob Sie mit einem der modernsten Flight Planning Tools arbeiten möchten oder andere Möglichkeiten des Zugriffs auf die umfangreiche aeronautische Datenbank, wie z.B. ständig aktualisierte Routen- und Wetterdaten, benötigen, Lido ist der richtige Partner. Auch auf den Gebieten Aircraft Performance Services, Flight Management System und Kartographie ist Lido Ihr Ansprechpartner Nummer 1.
Daten
Lufthansa Systems Gruppe Beteiligung 100%
Geschäftsführung Frank Wagner
Rupert Lange-Brandenburg
Gründung 01. Januar 1998
Which means:
The map providing company LIDO is 100% owned by the Lufthansa Group!
oops!
From the homepage of LIDO (the company providing the maps):
Lido Lufthansa Aeronautical Services GmbH
Lido Lufthansa Aeronautical Services ist ein erfahrener Partner von internationalen Fluggesellschaften für alle Aspekte der operationellen Flugplanung: Ob Sie mit einem der modernsten Flight Planning Tools arbeiten möchten oder andere Möglichkeiten des Zugriffs auf die umfangreiche aeronautische Datenbank, wie z.B. ständig aktualisierte Routen- und Wetterdaten, benötigen, Lido ist der richtige Partner. Auch auf den Gebieten Aircraft Performance Services, Flight Management System und Kartographie ist Lido Ihr Ansprechpartner Nummer 1.
Daten
Lufthansa Systems Gruppe Beteiligung 100%
Geschäftsführung Frank Wagner
Rupert Lange-Brandenburg
Gründung 01. Januar 1998
Which means:
The map providing company LIDO is 100% owned by the Lufthansa Group!
oops!
Last edited by DouglasFlyer; 29th Aug 2003 at 02:43.
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So what? The fact is that the Swiss pilots were given innacurate maps on the continental network. Up to that change, they were happy with Jeppesen.
Lido belonging to LH Systems does not change anything to the hazard the Swiss pilots are now exposed to.
One of them summerized the controversy : «As long as the wheather is good, no problem. As soon as it will get cloudy and foogy, I'll ask for a sick leave».
Lido belonging to LH Systems does not change anything to the hazard the Swiss pilots are now exposed to.
One of them summerized the controversy : «As long as the wheather is good, no problem. As soon as it will get cloudy and foogy, I'll ask for a sick leave».
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ettore - you're right!
When you fly back to Zurich forgetting the NOTAM-entry
"IAC 4.1 ILS14 / ILS Navaid Box from 108.30 IKL changed to D108.30 IKL" while lining up for the ILS 14 and suddenly the ILS DME pops up on your PFD despite of the missing D in the navaid box your exposed to extreme hazard and stay better home feeling sick!
Hey - take it easy! This was a Blick-story!
When you fly back to Zurich forgetting the NOTAM-entry
"IAC 4.1 ILS14 / ILS Navaid Box from 108.30 IKL changed to D108.30 IKL" while lining up for the ILS 14 and suddenly the ILS DME pops up on your PFD despite of the missing D in the navaid box your exposed to extreme hazard and stay better home feeling sick!
Hey - take it easy! This was a Blick-story!
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Long before it became a "Blick Story" it was and it remains a concern to many Swiss pilots. To play it down or to dismiss it as a yellow paper story does not help to assess the risks and responses to another Swiss Int'l Airline management failure.
Do the LX crashes in Nassenwill (FMS, training, certification) and Bassedorf (training, procedures, altitude) already belong to the past or are you "out of memory" ?
Do the LX crashes in Nassenwill (FMS, training, certification) and Bassedorf (training, procedures, altitude) already belong to the past or are you "out of memory" ?
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Why change a good system which is used by many companies, called Jeppessen, for a more expensive, inaccurate and unsafe one called Lido?? I suppose the latter was sold to promote some one's pocket....!!! How can the company make a statement to say safety was not compromised? BULLS**T!!! Management will once again blame the pilots in case of an accident/incident. Has this been reported to the BAZL/FOCA??? Why don't they ground Swiss operations till these mistakes have been rectified?? So, they must be held equally responcible for an incident!!!
"Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can
call air traffic control." Not all Swiss aircraft are equipted with these systems.
" It's not a big safetyproblem since we know the Jeppesens by heart." =fantastic memory!! Especially when revision are sent out....
"The national carrier, Swiss, recently decided to pull out of Lugano, but at least three other airlines have announced plans to launch flight operations from southern Switzerland." In a nutshell: starting September 1st, the Saab 2000 is restricted from flying into Lugano because of the steep approach. " There was nothing wrong in flying a SAAB into Lugano previously, but now that there will be oppostion....!!!!
"Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can
call air traffic control." Not all Swiss aircraft are equipted with these systems.
" It's not a big safetyproblem since we know the Jeppesens by heart." =fantastic memory!! Especially when revision are sent out....
"The national carrier, Swiss, recently decided to pull out of Lugano, but at least three other airlines have announced plans to launch flight operations from southern Switzerland." In a nutshell: starting September 1st, the Saab 2000 is restricted from flying into Lugano because of the steep approach. " There was nothing wrong in flying a SAAB into Lugano previously, but now that there will be oppostion....!!!!
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Is there someone from LH around who can confirm that you fly with the same LIDO charts or not? I see a lot of Lufthansa's on continental Europe and they must have used charts before...
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Anybody who thinks that in-flight documentation does not need to be accurate and current does not deserve to be part of the management of any airline. Airline pilots who accept poor documentation are a danger to the industry and do not deserve their pilot licence.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
This story has is more than a little reminiscent of Air New Zealand's Mount Erebus accident years ago, when a DC10 had a CFIT in the Antarctic, killing all on board, as a direct result of ANZ's staff in the Flight Planning section providing incorrect navigation information for input into the aircraft's nav system.
And amazingly, in SPITE of being aware of the incorrect/inaccurate information being deliberately supplied, Swiss are refusing to correct it!
And amazingly, in SPITE of being aware of the incorrect/inaccurate information being deliberately supplied, Swiss are refusing to correct it!