Monarch
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
the point about this thread is, that even in companies like MON where over the last few years there has been little public grumbling, the changes to our conditions of work are slowly and surely deteriorating. I've been in a large charter co. for 4 years, each year has seen a minute payrise (thank you) but also a signifcant increase in workload and reduction in benefits. Basically, each year its become less fun to do the job. I think the pilot community would be more willing to accept the tough times IF, when the good times came again, they thought that the amenities lost, would be restored. However, I believe that one lost, a benefit is lost forever. Therefore pilots must stick up for themselves through BALPA, and fight every step of the way.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
From: UK
A few home truths:
£250 quid for working on a day off. I will have some of that. I get £6.89 an hour for working on my day off - its called overtime.
Remember Tony - you were the new guy in the RHS one day. Your job as Captain is to train, nuture and guide the new guys, not slam them for being inexperienced.
I have friends who fly for the likes of Flybe/Easy/Buzz Stansted. Things sound far worse there then your cosy life at Monarch. I friend of mine spent 4 days out of the last month at his "base airport" and was forced to do his line check whilst operating in discrertion recently.
I will have my fATPL finished soon. Would be delighted to take your place at Monarch if you hate it so much.
£250 quid for working on a day off. I will have some of that. I get £6.89 an hour for working on my day off - its called overtime.
Remember Tony - you were the new guy in the RHS one day. Your job as Captain is to train, nuture and guide the new guys, not slam them for being inexperienced.
I have friends who fly for the likes of Flybe/Easy/Buzz Stansted. Things sound far worse there then your cosy life at Monarch. I friend of mine spent 4 days out of the last month at his "base airport" and was forced to do his line check whilst operating in discrertion recently.
I will have my fATPL finished soon. Would be delighted to take your place at Monarch if you hate it so much.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 473
Likes: 3
From: Al tube.
fiftyfour
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The CAA figures you quote do not state the full financial health of several of the airlines quoted. With airlines the purchase of one aircraft can subtract £50M to the bottom line thus showing a huge financial loss but at the same time add substantially to the airlines assets.
Fortunately in this instance you cannot take the profit of £300000 as the definitive actual profit figure. The reason being Monarch is one of a group of companies that is ultimately owned by the same family. One of these sister companies is an aircraft leasing company that owns aircraft several times the fleet size of Monarch Airlines. The group of companies can make a substantial profit but the airline will not show this because the lease rates from the sister company have increased. It is one of the reasons for employing accountants and makes the most of tax liabilities.
If you look at the Virgin group then you could speculate on something similar.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The CAA figures you quote do not state the full financial health of several of the airlines quoted. With airlines the purchase of one aircraft can subtract £50M to the bottom line thus showing a huge financial loss but at the same time add substantially to the airlines assets.
Fortunately in this instance you cannot take the profit of £300000 as the definitive actual profit figure. The reason being Monarch is one of a group of companies that is ultimately owned by the same family. One of these sister companies is an aircraft leasing company that owns aircraft several times the fleet size of Monarch Airlines. The group of companies can make a substantial profit but the airline will not show this because the lease rates from the sister company have increased. It is one of the reasons for employing accountants and makes the most of tax liabilities.
If you look at the Virgin group then you could speculate on something similar.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Timzsta
The dayoff payments are very rarely used in my airline.
Their main purpose is to concentrate a crewing officers mind to find an efficient way of solving a problem rather than the way that is easiest for him and, therefore, could result in many pilot's rosters being changed ie. to cover one duty he shifts around half a dozen pilot's duties!
It is good way of making sure that as a (future) pilot you have a stable roster. Something that you will come to appreciate in the future.
The company very rarely pays out for day off duties unless of course they have completely cocked up their crewing levels. It is also down to the pilot if he chooses to work a day off. It , generally, works very well.
PS I am ex KLMuk as well and pleased that I got out when I did. Give me my present company over KLM any day.
The dayoff payments are very rarely used in my airline.
Their main purpose is to concentrate a crewing officers mind to find an efficient way of solving a problem rather than the way that is easiest for him and, therefore, could result in many pilot's rosters being changed ie. to cover one duty he shifts around half a dozen pilot's duties!
It is good way of making sure that as a (future) pilot you have a stable roster. Something that you will come to appreciate in the future.
The company very rarely pays out for day off duties unless of course they have completely cocked up their crewing levels. It is also down to the pilot if he chooses to work a day off. It , generally, works very well.
PS I am ex KLMuk as well and pleased that I got out when I did. Give me my present company over KLM any day.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,743
Likes: 38
From: Under the flight path
Alloy -
There seems to be confusion here between the P&L and Balance Sheet.
'Profit' is an art form. You can make it say more or less what you want (and since it's what you pay tax on, you minimise it).
The Balance Sheet is nearer to the truth, but far more complex. That's where the £50m for a new aircraft goes (unless it's on an operating lease). It doesn't come out of profits.
To judge when a business is failing, look out for delayed payments to suppliers, doing deals with new or unstable customers or suppliers, and panic cost-cutting.
There seems to be confusion here between the P&L and Balance Sheet.
'Profit' is an art form. You can make it say more or less what you want (and since it's what you pay tax on, you minimise it).
The Balance Sheet is nearer to the truth, but far more complex. That's where the £50m for a new aircraft goes (unless it's on an operating lease). It doesn't come out of profits.
To judge when a business is failing, look out for delayed payments to suppliers, doing deals with new or unstable customers or suppliers, and panic cost-cutting.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: UK
amazing how this topic (like so many others on pprune recently) has been hijacked and bears not the slightest resemblence to the actual topic by the original poster.....
My own 2 pence worth.... If you don't like your lot, instead of bleating about...do something about it...join another airline, or get a 9 to 5 and really wake up and smell the coffee.
Just don't come back crying after you find that the grass you thought would be greener (or more orange in most cases), is most definately not....
My own 2 pence worth.... If you don't like your lot, instead of bleating about...do something about it...join another airline, or get a 9 to 5 and really wake up and smell the coffee.
Just don't come back crying after you find that the grass you thought would be greener (or more orange in most cases), is most definately not....
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: uk
Alloy,
I agree with some of what you say. But, an extension of your arguement would mean that Britannia seem to have hopeless accountants. Surely, they ought to be able to loose all that profit, just like Monarch do. Or, perhaps they need a dose of BA accountancy - then they would be able to 'loose' hundreds of millions. The profit figures don't tell the whole story, but they are certainly not irrelevent. The CAA website has details of assets, loans to and from subsidiaries, mortgages, cash at bank etc etc if you care to look.
I agree with some of what you say. But, an extension of your arguement would mean that Britannia seem to have hopeless accountants. Surely, they ought to be able to loose all that profit, just like Monarch do. Or, perhaps they need a dose of BA accountancy - then they would be able to 'loose' hundreds of millions. The profit figures don't tell the whole story, but they are certainly not irrelevent. The CAA website has details of assets, loans to and from subsidiaries, mortgages, cash at bank etc etc if you care to look.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Mondriver,
We are bleating because most of us remember what a great company Monarch was to work for. I think you will find a lot of our junior (and not so junior with 10-15 years to command) F/O's will leave for direct Easyjet commands.
We are bleating because most of us remember what a great company Monarch was to work for. I think you will find a lot of our junior (and not so junior with 10-15 years to command) F/O's will leave for direct Easyjet commands.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Dunno what the Monarch guys are complaining about...but in my experience performing substitute flights for them, found their operation to be first rate.
Off to their dispatch office to receive one of the best briefings ever, then very competent ground staff, made for a great company. Best looking hosties as well.
As they are one of the oldest companies flying, they must be doing something right.
Off to their dispatch office to receive one of the best briefings ever, then very competent ground staff, made for a great company. Best looking hosties as well.
As they are one of the oldest companies flying, they must be doing something right.
Plumbum Pendular
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
From: Avionics Bay
411A - You flew the MD11 for us I believe, route proving for our A330's.
Things are different now, all has changed in the last 2 years. The new MD seems to have a mandate to cut costs everywhere, including pilot's benefits.
For those who say that we shouldn't complain as it is worse elsewhere have their heads in the sand.
If companies such as BA, MON, BY, MYT, and AMM do not fight against the deterioration of benefits where will the incentive be for companies such as EZY, FlyBe, KLMuk etc to improve or maintain their benefits?
Things are different now, all has changed in the last 2 years. The new MD seems to have a mandate to cut costs everywhere, including pilot's benefits.
For those who say that we shouldn't complain as it is worse elsewhere have their heads in the sand.
If companies such as BA, MON, BY, MYT, and AMM do not fight against the deterioration of benefits where will the incentive be for companies such as EZY, FlyBe, KLMuk etc to improve or maintain their benefits?
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: UK
Monarch Pilots
This is for all you gents seatting at the front seat of the tube, complaining of everything and anything. You should all be very happy that you have 1% plus 3.2% pay rise. Cabin crew that work as hard as you boys have had nothing? Yes nothing, but still we get to work wishing for the best not just for our selfs but for all of us, flight deck and cabin crew. What you dont realise is that we need that litle pay rise as bad as you do, so what you boys need to do is fight for everybody not just for your selfs.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
From: uk
Aeroplano, the pilots union Balpa have got the latest deal on the table , support your union with a chunk of your salary get profesional negotiators in to support you company council and talk with management and things may change. The fact the pilots have an offer on the table may well help your cause but dont acuse the flightdeck of not understanding your plight or the work you all put in dealing with the SLF. Most if not all the work force could do with a little more to counter Mr Browns (G) stealth taxes.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: usa
economic reality
I am certainly not qualified to comment on your rostering concerns, but your comments on pay and pension I think are misplaced. Only a union airline employee would complain about no pay raises in two years. You still have a job, which many employees in non-union jobs in other industries do not.
I realize that you cannot acertain Monarch's financial condition, but do you really think that high load factors mean profits right now? I know you are smarter than that. The airline biz is going through a meaningful transition, and even charter operators are not immune from the upheaval. Costs are more important than they ever have been and pilots alone are 10-15% of the industry's cost burden.
Pay- and service-dependent pensions are going by the wayside. They are simply too expensive now that people are living longer. Retire at 55 or 60 depending on your country, and draw a large cheque for another 15 or 20 years or more. It's very hard to generate enough of a return on your small personal contribution to fund this expense. How about saving money, living in a smaller house, etc., to fund your retirement like most other folks who do not have pensions? I know you charter guys don't make the same pay as you would at the majors, but it's still a tad better than the average university grad, I dare say.
There is surplus of pilots globally, so if you don't like the pay and benefits at Monarch, you can be replaced easily and you can go work somewhere else or change to a different industry. Crying about no pay raises in this environment I think is insulting to those of us who do track financials of this industry and see how painfully sticky pilots wages and benefits are. You don't know how good you have it -- enjoy it while you can, because it is not sustainable.
I realize that you cannot acertain Monarch's financial condition, but do you really think that high load factors mean profits right now? I know you are smarter than that. The airline biz is going through a meaningful transition, and even charter operators are not immune from the upheaval. Costs are more important than they ever have been and pilots alone are 10-15% of the industry's cost burden.
Pay- and service-dependent pensions are going by the wayside. They are simply too expensive now that people are living longer. Retire at 55 or 60 depending on your country, and draw a large cheque for another 15 or 20 years or more. It's very hard to generate enough of a return on your small personal contribution to fund this expense. How about saving money, living in a smaller house, etc., to fund your retirement like most other folks who do not have pensions? I know you charter guys don't make the same pay as you would at the majors, but it's still a tad better than the average university grad, I dare say.
There is surplus of pilots globally, so if you don't like the pay and benefits at Monarch, you can be replaced easily and you can go work somewhere else or change to a different industry. Crying about no pay raises in this environment I think is insulting to those of us who do track financials of this industry and see how painfully sticky pilots wages and benefits are. You don't know how good you have it -- enjoy it while you can, because it is not sustainable.
Guest
Posts: n/a
LMDFlyer, AEROPLANO:
So what do you suggest? We keep shtum, never complain, bend over and have penny pinching faceless corporate boxticking beancounters who know jack sh1t about flying give us a right royal reaming?
Or perhaps we should form a union, kick and fight against this and perhaps do something to preserve our terms and conditions - oh, I'm sorry we did that already.
Perhaps you think big houses are the preserve of professional footballers, rock stars and cabinet ministers? Sorry, but does a pilot having a bigger house offend your socialist sensibilities?
And there's another thing. The UK charter industry spent millions over decades getting away from the 3rd. rate bucket shop image. Unfortunately there's a new generation of "financials tracking" managers who don't remember this, but alot of pilots do. So go ahead, reduce costs to the bone. Get rid of all your expensive long serving pilots and replace them with chinese or eastern bloc pilots on a pittance of a wage. Get them flying a load of old rustbuckets. And watch your customers bitch and moan, and probably die as a result of your narrow-mindedness, complacency and desire to make a quick buck. It's a case of been there done that, and I wouldn't for one want to go back to it.
You might gripe about pilots costing 10-15% of the industry's cost burden, but believe me that's much, much cheaper than a hull-loss fatal accident and all the liability that ensues. Besides, 10-15% is a small amount to spend on a vital component of the business.
And if ever people like you get to run this industry then I won't be part of it.
So what do you suggest? We keep shtum, never complain, bend over and have penny pinching faceless corporate boxticking beancounters who know jack sh1t about flying give us a right royal reaming?
Or perhaps we should form a union, kick and fight against this and perhaps do something to preserve our terms and conditions - oh, I'm sorry we did that already.
Perhaps you think big houses are the preserve of professional footballers, rock stars and cabinet ministers? Sorry, but does a pilot having a bigger house offend your socialist sensibilities?
And there's another thing. The UK charter industry spent millions over decades getting away from the 3rd. rate bucket shop image. Unfortunately there's a new generation of "financials tracking" managers who don't remember this, but alot of pilots do. So go ahead, reduce costs to the bone. Get rid of all your expensive long serving pilots and replace them with chinese or eastern bloc pilots on a pittance of a wage. Get them flying a load of old rustbuckets. And watch your customers bitch and moan, and probably die as a result of your narrow-mindedness, complacency and desire to make a quick buck. It's a case of been there done that, and I wouldn't for one want to go back to it.
You might gripe about pilots costing 10-15% of the industry's cost burden, but believe me that's much, much cheaper than a hull-loss fatal accident and all the liability that ensues. Besides, 10-15% is a small amount to spend on a vital component of the business.
And if ever people like you get to run this industry then I won't be part of it.