Monarch
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: uk
But you don't have to be educated beyond 'cleaning staff' level, some may be, but a scan of these forums shows that most aren't. You all demand respect as professionals, what other profession posts publicly in this manner?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
I'd suggest that we ignore Carruthers who is either unaware that much of the comment on this website is posted by people who are not professional flight crew or is himself one of those to whom the red warning at the bottom of this page refers.
I wonder if he is sufficiently educated or well read to be aware of one of the more famous literary sources from which his/her nom-de-web is derived.
I wonder if he is sufficiently educated or well read to be aware of one of the more famous literary sources from which his/her nom-de-web is derived.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: uk
Indeed 'The Riddle of the Sands' rather a common name! Biggles is favourite here of course, except for lawn mower manuals.
Groundstar, I think you will find that most aeronautical engineering graduates would consider their degree more than ‘relatively’ academic! But the point is that no level of academic achievement is necessary to become a pilot. Cramming for a few multi choice questions from the CAA demands little but a spot of application, indeed many of our colleagues failed to achieve A level standard even current A level. You may also find that engineers, surveyors and lawn mower mechanics are least qualified to understand a balance sheet.
Groundstar, I think you will find that most aeronautical engineering graduates would consider their degree more than ‘relatively’ academic! But the point is that no level of academic achievement is necessary to become a pilot. Cramming for a few multi choice questions from the CAA demands little but a spot of application, indeed many of our colleagues failed to achieve A level standard even current A level. You may also find that engineers, surveyors and lawn mower mechanics are least qualified to understand a balance sheet.
Last edited by Carruthers; 26th August 2003 at 16:07.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: uk
Like children in a playground if you criticise us you hate us. Read the postings, you know better than the managers, ‘bean stealers’, bosses and everyone else, but you never have to put your money where your mouth is. All in all you are better paid with less hassle and responsibility than any other worker, which is simply what you are. You whinge, bitch and moan but the writing is on the wall, you have been sussed. It is the low cost carriers that have shown that you can be hired by the hour, are not a rare and exclusive profession and are available in abundance. It is ludicrous to suggest that the terms and conditions at Monarch are not extremely good, they will not be seen in future companies enjoy it while you can.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Robin Hood country.
Carruthers....wouldn't be a suit by any chance, would you?
Of course we've been sussed, it's 2003 and everybody's been sussed. There isn't a profession left that 's not under pressure for more work and less pay with T's and C's heading south. Doesn't hide the fact though that running these airlines are a bunch of empty suits who haven't really been doing an exemplary job of late, fact is, most of the decision making would have been equally effective if made using the dart/dart board principle.
Wasn't aware that the suits were putting their own money where their mouth's were, thought they were losing other peoples cash while collecting an over generous salary for a job poorly done prior to bailing out on golden parachutes. Silly me, live and learn I suppose.
Metaphorically speaking, pilots rarely end up in a smoking hole but the suits seem to crash with monotonous regularity. Come on suits; sit up straight, pull your socks up, put the thinking caps on and give us pilot types nothing to whinge, bitch and moan about. Asking too much from the suits isn't it? Bit like expecting a leopard to change its spots.
Wasn't aware that the suits were putting their own money where their mouth's were, thought they were losing other peoples cash while collecting an over generous salary for a job poorly done prior to bailing out on golden parachutes. Silly me, live and learn I suppose.
Metaphorically speaking, pilots rarely end up in a smoking hole but the suits seem to crash with monotonous regularity. Come on suits; sit up straight, pull your socks up, put the thinking caps on and give us pilot types nothing to whinge, bitch and moan about. Asking too much from the suits isn't it? Bit like expecting a leopard to change its spots.
Last edited by XL5; 27th August 2003 at 15:50.
Guest
Posts: n/a
From this thread one would deduce that pilots are generally regarded as professional whingers & suits as nitpicking beancounters, but please wake up - both groups are needed to run an airline. If this truth was accepted, then both groups could work towards a common goal, but suspect that views are too entrenched for this to happen.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,743
Likes: 38
From: Under the flight path
Speaking as an ex-suit (in another industry), I think it must be difficult to manage pilots.
They have massive responsibility whilst flying, but little at other times. They are paid as well as most of the suits, often better. Due to crewing restrictions they have the time to 'network' and whinge. Unusually for highly-paid staff they are (in some airlines) unionised. Their skills can not be replaced, and are central to the organisation. In short, they are educated professionals doing the kind of job that in many other industries would be blue-collar (because flying is high-tech).
Any comments?
PS not all suits are CEOs earning millions
They have massive responsibility whilst flying, but little at other times. They are paid as well as most of the suits, often better. Due to crewing restrictions they have the time to 'network' and whinge. Unusually for highly-paid staff they are (in some airlines) unionised. Their skills can not be replaced, and are central to the organisation. In short, they are educated professionals doing the kind of job that in many other industries would be blue-collar (because flying is high-tech).
Any comments?
PS not all suits are CEOs earning millions
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: UK
LGS6753
Your comments on the whole are correct, with 100's of people seated behind you it is a massive responsibility and they are highly trained and worth the money they are paid. You are also right they are educated (I would add highly) professionals.
But when you put more than one in a room together, all you hear is how much better they can run the compnay and what a hard life they have and what is the best pension scheme on the market etc etc etc. But I think that's just human nature, we all feel we can do better than others.
I must point out I am not a pilot, never wished to be one and have no need to be one.
But they do deserve our respect for what they do and how they do it.
Your comments on the whole are correct, with 100's of people seated behind you it is a massive responsibility and they are highly trained and worth the money they are paid. You are also right they are educated (I would add highly) professionals.
But when you put more than one in a room together, all you hear is how much better they can run the compnay and what a hard life they have and what is the best pension scheme on the market etc etc etc. But I think that's just human nature, we all feel we can do better than others.
I must point out I am not a pilot, never wished to be one and have no need to be one.
But they do deserve our respect for what they do and how they do it.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: uk
For those in Monarch complaining about declining terms and conditions and lack of pay rises. I would say that you should recognise that this is a recession, and most of us are lucky to even retain our jobs. If you need convincing then ask those in Buzz, Debonair, Sabena, Swissair,etc . All pilots in all the airlines are working harder than previously. The CAA website gives the following profit/(loss) before tax for the tax year ending 2002.
Monarch £300,000
Last year will have been worse (ie a sizeable loss), and the coming year worse still.
For comparison:
BA loss ( £187,000,000)
Thomas Cook loss ( £29,000,000)
Brit Mid loss ( £2,200,000)
FlyBE loss ( £16,900,000)
Virgin loss ( £14,500,000)
Britannia profit £63,300,000
Easyjet profit £40,100,000
Go profit £13,900,000
GB profit £12,900,000
Monarch £300,000
Last year will have been worse (ie a sizeable loss), and the coming year worse still.
For comparison:
BA loss ( £187,000,000)
Thomas Cook loss ( £29,000,000)
Brit Mid loss ( £2,200,000)
FlyBE loss ( £16,900,000)
Virgin loss ( £14,500,000)
Britannia profit £63,300,000
Easyjet profit £40,100,000
Go profit £13,900,000
GB profit £12,900,000