I'll see your derrr and raise it to a D'Oh. If something is cut, it is taken out, if it is moved then it is conducted in a different phase of the training. From the AH OSP....

CTT ammunition
30mm = X
Rockets Prac = Y
MPSM Prac = Z

CTR ammunition
30mm = A
Rockets Prac = B
MPSM Prac = C

Reality is...

CTT = Nil

CTR =
30mm = X+A
Rockets Prac = Y+B (when they become available)
MPSM Prac + Z+C (as above)

Rockets and their availability is matter of funding (being addressed), the amount required to complete training (under review) and the lead in time from ordering to delivery. The move of firing to CTR was taken as a measure to ease the strain on the overloaded CTT process. IRRC this applies to the current CTR and the next one will resume firing but probably only for 30mm. The rationilastion of CTT/CTR training will produce a more joined up approach whereby hypothetically mountain flying will fit later in the pipeline but formation flying will fit earlier.
Finally, NVG is not taught at all at the moment but NVS is (different optical wavelength). DNVG is not far away though.

Tom,
A SAAvn Instructor should not be doing diving fire, he is not qualified and it is not a TO for a student. All serials are conducted in the hover for CTT therefore that is all a SAAvn Instructor is required to do.

SL

I disagree,
The figures you quote is what I am sure should occur, but the reality is somewhat different I am led to believe from an experienced AMTAT member. The 30mm has not changed for CTR and the CTT ammo has just been swallowed up, or taken as another cost saving measure.

But I reiterate the fundamental point i raised; which was how can someone qualify from an Attack Helicopter course without demonstrating his/her ability to shoot sh1t. Can you imagine a tankie or a infantryman leaving training and not completing APWT or basic weapons qualifications live! It sounds like you have had something to do with the removal of the training from CTT with way you defend the ridiculous idea!

Either way as long as the standard of the chaps on the 2 way range is what is required then fine, but why do the Americans fire at CTT, CTR and every month leading up to Ops. and when not on Ops every 6 months regardless of cost or consequence?

PP.

:}

The CTT shoot as part of a CTR has yet to happen.:p Methinks you consider a CTT to be the end of the matter, this is not the case. RAC/Inf, upon completion of basic training, are not ready to go on ops straight away and neither is an AH CTT dude, there is more to be done, in fact, if you do know someone at AMTAT as you claim, he will educate you about progressive training methods and the many shortfalls that a CTT graduate has compared to a AH CR pilot. He will also know about the firing requirements, it's good to talk, their number is not a secret.
Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.
You appear to have not helped even though you claim to have the ability to from an earlier post. It might even be said you are doing anything but.
SL
:bored:

Ammo has been cut
 

CTT ammo has been cut, after a steady reduction before that and no rockets before that.
Mountains has been cut.

Thank good ness we are not going somehwere mountainous that we require to shoot somebody!

I have done all my ATDs, BPFA and a BCFT though!

The whole thing is a joke and I am considering following the others who have resigned. I support previous posters "how can you qualify on a weapons platform if you don't ever shoot sh1t"? I am too frustrated and not being allowed to train for my job:{

Chaps,

Just to clarify, initial weapons assessments are carried out in the simulator as part of CTT. The weapons package is taught at CTT as a whole to a basic standard. CTT only ever exposed the crews to initial consequence of fire standard requiring a full table.

Moving live firing to CTR as opposed to CTT enables more progressive use of the ammunition and therefore in theory a better product at the end. Qualification was never achieved until the end of CTR anyway as several tables of munitions are required progressively,

Regards,

HEDP

I have just heard that project AH has lost another instructor (PM), I havnt seen him for a while so not sure if its true. I understand he is still a member of AMTAT but has been discharged on medical grounds? (always was a deaf bugger).

Not sure how this will impact on the program but the loss of another instructor can not be good. The last time I served with the 'badger' was in FRY, he was a door gunners nighmare as the ac comd! (joking)

Could someone that actually knows PM let me know what the bobby is, 'badger' if your a pruner PM me please.

PP
:confused:

HEDP,

I think you are are wrong. It is my opinion that individual aircrew need to fire live weapons on the CTT to achieve the basic level. Individual skill. They should then progress their tactics, and collective skills with further tables at CTR. Individual skills at CTT, and for an AH pilot, that means firing live ammo. Cutting live firing or reducing basic live ammo from CTT is the wrong approach.

The US Army conversion to AH has them firing 6 tables of 100 rounds, 10 rockets each. Front and back seat, running/diving and hover, both day and night. Their equivalent of CTR has further tables for collective training/unit qualification. They do it that way not because they can afford it, but because it is the the correct way to train an AH pilot.

Sloppy Link it is a smug comment to assume that the US lags the British in terms of ability. The US Army does seem to have substantial experience of AH operations with their fleet of about 500 helicopters. It may be assumed that, just like us, they have aviators who range in ability from 'low average' to 'above average'. Just because we don't do it that way doesn't make it right. I would be happy to have any nation's AH with me who is confident that he can put rounds on target. Military aviation is an expensive business.

One flew past the end of my garden yesterday and I reckon I could have taken it down with a well aimed croissant. That would make me down in the mouth if I was flying about in it!

Fair comment, I think that as we have such small amounts in comparison, we have to extract every tiny bit of training value from the limited resource. Flippant remark retracted.
:O

Sloppy Link - I only hope that our Lords and Masters acknowledge that we need to extract every training opportunity. What ever happened to the 'train hard, fight easy'?

Apache - article in today's Daily Mail...
 

I didn't buy it, honest guv - it was free at the gym.

The article concerns overspending and then brushing under the carpet, by the MOD - then flying the secrets act flag, firmly over the budget sheets.

It goes on to say that the 67 Apaches in service in the UK cost £40 million each, after the assembly lines and tooling were considered. Israel then bought their machines from the Boeing line for £12m each. The author then states that each of the assembly line workers at Westland could have been given a million quid each if they had bought straight from the USA !

Anyone ?

TFS

I'm sure that if the crew were aware of any hostiles in the area it was operating in they wouldn't have been such an 'easy' target. Perhaps next time you'd prefer if they hosed you down with some 30 mike mike as soon as you showed your mug. :E

If they were on the wrong phase of the course, it doesn't look like they would have any 30 mike to do any hosing with - and what happened to well-aimed shots?

Is the Apache vulnerable to the well aimed croissant though?

"Smug" is not quite the word I would use to describe it....but that will do I guess.


Seems a bit odd coming from folks that are flying "American" aircraft...must be a bit off putting having to fly "second rate kit"....oh, wait a minute...there is no British AH helicopter is there? Just like having to improve the Chinook....and they still cannot fly because the software doesn't work?

I reckon simulated hits are fine on simulated targets....but the proof of the pudding is real rounds on real targets on the two way firing range. Ya'll are welcome to come join in the "real" shooting...."talk" is cheap Sloppy....but "doing" will prove your point. Thus, Sloppy is just talking.

SASless, RTFP

Regards

SL

Before commenting I want to know if the source for the article is still alive.

I try not to believe everything in print. Except in the Jet Blast forum.

Ah but dear boy....then they would have been "American" AH-64's now wouldn't they? That just would not be the "done thing"....no it just would not do...why one could have 200 of the things whizzing about for that kind of money! Why the poor ol' MOD cannot afford cannon shells for the few they have flyable now anyway. Reckon some of the Typhoon shells that could have been bought if that fighter had a gun could be diverted to the Apache budget?

Why am I not surprised? Actually, 40-odd of them would appear to be not actually in service, but in mothballs in deepest Shropshire. Waiting for the apocalypse, perhaps? Maybe they want a bank of spares?

Phil

Whether right or wrong, I believe that the number 67 was devised by a method of extrapolation.

The minimum number of operational Apaches required (say for arguments sake one squadron (8 aircraft)) was assumed at the end of the aircrafts life span, say in 30 years time. It was then worked backwards from an estimated attrition rate due to operational incidents, crashes, component lifing etc to the number of aircraft required at present to ensure the minimum operational number in the future.

I heard they were actually disassembling some Apaches in storage to use for spare parts for the operational ones.

Well, the Apache's which aren't flying are obviously not flying for a reason. The computer equipment in them was not "up to scratch" for our Armed Forces and are not going to be flown untill it is upgraded.
But at the same time the MoD have a lot of money being spent on other projects for the Armed Forces, so are having to budget the costs into another year's expenditure. The need for the UK to have these attack helicopters is not immediate..thats what we are using America for in Iraq.

(Just what I heard)

Graham

Balderdash!!!!!!!!!!!!

The requisite number of Apache's are not flying, primarily because there aren't enough "willing" pilots to fly the damned overcomplicated machine:mad:

seemed to be a few flying round Carlisle today.

TC - Whatever happened to "I'm a General - you're not - go fly that Apache!"

Phil

Go fly an Apache...oh, and bye the way only because we need it in Afghanistan for a 9 month deployment, mate!

From what I hear - the lads are uncomfortable with the idea of flying a management system that takes about 2hrs to pre brief and prepare. They are used to getting airborne quickly and flying the damn thing.
It's not a popular tour............................

Seems a lot of software issues in the UK MOD of late.....Chinook IF kit...Apache Flight Management system....guess one can always find an excuse to down tools.

If one winds up with a single eight aircraft unit down the road....just what kind of combat capability is that to plan for?

So much for the superiority of the British Military technology it seems....at least there is still some guts behind the bayonet....or can you use a bayonet on the SA-80 thing? Uh Oh....should not have mentioned that either....not the best of rifles is it?

The Brits call on the Aussies to do their fighting for them anyway, which probably the reason military hardware is not on the to-do list. :p

SASless - ever stop to ask yourself where this dodgy software originates? Not a UK cause, but rather higher standards being applied in the UK.

I can't speak for the pre-brief requirements of any service, but from Battery ON to lift-off with all systems fully operational rarely takes me more than 15 minutes. I could take-off in half that time if I don't need certain systems immediately.

Should there really be a shortage of Apache pilots, have the MOD give me a call, I will sign up and move to the UK.

Nimby...

Is this the usual "British" higher standards? The kind that prevent mission accomplishment and cause several Thousand Million Pounds Sterling worth of equipment to set idle while the troops need the stuff in order to carry out their combat essential missions? The same kind of "higher standards" that gets the Squaddie's boots that melt in the desert?

I would suggest it is "incompetence" that causes these problems....fighters without guns....Chinooks without IF capability....Apaches without pilots....rifles that don't work. "Higher Standards" is an excuse for arrrogance and incompetence. The Apaches are flying in combat daily and doing a good job for several militaries. Maybe one day the British Apaches will get to fire real bullets at real targets.

the lads are uncomfortable with the idea of flying a management system that takes about 2hrs to pre brief and prepare.

Thats pretty normal for the AirForce isn't it, maybe the wrong service are operating it!!:eek:

That's an interesting comment, Cheesaburger - when I first heard the AAC were getting Apaches, a friend and I came to the conclusion that the guys who go on the courses would do very well, but the AAC wouldn't be able to handle the machines at all.

Since the ultimate fate of any helicopter on a battlefield is to get blown up, I have also thought it was better to have lots of cheap machines with trained crews than a few expensive ones. For example, the Chieftain may well be the best tank in the world, but not so good with 200 enemy tanks in front of it! But then, what do I know?

Phil

Uh, Phil - do you mean the Challenger 2?

Probably - shows my age!

phil

foto
 

do you got a foto of the dutch skinned apache longbow from project reality ??

Just looked in on this thread and I've never heard such uninformed bollo c ks being spouted in my life.

It's a tough tour sure, but the Apache drivers in Afghanistan are doing incredible stuff and, while the tour takes its toll, are very much enjoying slotting taliban by the truckload. They're also very good at it. They also allow most of the casevacs from warmer LZs to take place by virtue of raining flechette rockets on anyone who pops their head up and gives a dirty look at the IRT chinook.

Just ask 40 Cdo when they get back (round about now).

You're right there, CR, but then again most of the thread is well over 2 years old. You've not been around for a while. Been away somewhere nice?