Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

CSRO, if you might be in a position to try and help, why not pick up a telephone and call the units or individuals effected?
Check PM

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Wait until the FRI time bars runout later this year!!

Bugger.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

CSRO,
Your apparant lack of knowledge is at odds with the intimate depth of knowledge you appear to have of individuals career plans. If you feel that you can help, how about doing it? You should not have to be asked.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Crab Beefer,
The RAF cannot yet fill the Lynx exchange QHI slot at SAAvn (after gapping it for 3 months already and looking at another 3 months until it is filled), let alone front up with a suitable candidate for AH. Rumour has it that the proposed individual is ex-RN, recently transferred to the RAF and on his first posting. Lots of confidence in the quality then......
:hmm: BS

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Cant let this one disappear, its not even started to hit any raw nerves yet!

I must ask this question, just why are AH pilots so down in the mouth about life in an AH sqn??

Honesty must be the best policy if anything is to change.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Peoplespoet

You ought to read what folks who actually fly the Apache say rather than fishing for manure. AH pilots are not down in the mouth.

Check out AHQHI's posts on this thread - 'he wouldn't want to go to war wearing anything else' he goes on to say, I paraphrase, it needs dedicated people who really want to do this and it is challenging. He's even offering visits to an AH Sqn for likely applicants to check it out before they apply. I assume you do not fall into this category since you seem to know little about the Apache or the men and women who fly it.

LB

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

LB,
I'm sure that you are correct but I have spoken with many AH crews recently and to a man they are hacked off.

Fed up of poor serviceability, being placed on and off the deployment wagon and AH funding being cut left right and Chelsea. The general feeling appears to be that the AH is a great ac but the MOD cant afford to operate it effectively. It costs to much for ac MODs and training ammunition (which has apparently ran out) and the men are left to provide the full capability on a shoe string which is damaging to health and reputation.

I have no Axe to grind, just cant understand how the crews that fly the beast have become so demoralized that they should consider leaving after so much has been invested in them.

Surely everything possible should be available and considered to keep them on AH and in the forces i.e. more money if thats what it takes, after all the NAO state that it costs the tax payer nearly 1 million pound to fully train each CR AH pilot so 100K extra to retain their services for 5 years is a wise investment, and it worked for the harrier mates.

If any of the above has truth in it 'especially the ammo thing' then the MOD must have a duty of care to front up the dosh ASAP (UOR) especially if the media hype of a deployment next year is correct. The men need to train if they are expected to deliver!

Responses welcome

PP.

DEFENCE
Apache Helicopters

Mr. Paterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much it costs to train a pilot to fly Apache helicopters; and how long the training takes. [153977]

Mr. Ingram: The basic Conversion to Type course for qualified Army pilots on the Apache helicopter at the School of Army Aviation, Middle Wallop, is 26 weeks. A current estimate of cost for this course for one pilot (the course has yet to complete) is £600,000. Once qualified, pilots then progress to a Conversion to Role course which will take place at Dishforth and Wattisham, and is run by the Air Manoeuvre Training Advisory Team (AMTAT). This course is of 26 weeks duration and an estimate of cost is £550,000.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Wow! 26 weeks conversion to type! How many flying hours?

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

26 week Apache CTT, a bit like a student trimming out a Chipmunt T10!

I love the fact that so many people on here hide behind names that mean nothing and wax lyrical about mates who are Apache pilots and fed-up!

I too have got mates who are Apache pilots, not one of them are fed-up of flying Apache or being on the program. I would say that Apache pilots are no more or less fed-up than the Lynx drivers in the Regt.

I've said on here previously and stated there are issues, sure there are, but when you strap in they ebb away. The ammunition situation isn't ideal, indeed I had a chat with DCJHC Brig NC and it was top of his list of things to correct, but you can't pop down to Halfords and buy a batch of CRV7 off the shelf. The spares issue is complex, and to be honest is an issue, however it is often over-stated, what isn't often mentioned is how low the manning levels are at the Sqn CSS, now, if you want to find a group who are fed-up, speak to your friendly Apache REME! Never mentioned is how long it takes 7 Bat to turn round 300's cos fixing aircraft is 5th on a list of 7 tasks for the Bn. Or is it cos there are no spares?

Guys, I've had a heavy week on OPTAG Trg down at Colly, lets stop the bitchin and we'll p155 this.

Peoplespoet, it's been a while since you were last on here, I know I know who you are, but give us a clue mate.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Crikey, AHQHI656, youre dull. It appears the only people who bring this subject up is 'you lot'.
Most choose to be anonymous. It appears you use your user name to gain ACR points, just a guess.;) Bet you dont say anything bad or against the Corps with that do you?

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

WG13 Dummy, you’ve got the gall to call me dull, I’ve just read your public profile, who’s dull?
You can wink all you like but suggesting I’m on here to gain CR points couldn’t be further from the truth, if you knew me then you’d know better. You seem to have confused my loyalty to the Apache (which I love dearly) for trying to gain CR points.
You claim that the only people bringing up this subject [Apache] is us lot, again wide of the mark, check out who started this thread, not an Apache pilot!
As for not saying anything bad against the Corps, when it’s warranted it gets it, though I’ve not said anything good about it either. I will not sit idly by while rubish is stated about the Apache or my fellow Apache pilots, no more than when I was flying Lynx.
We are where we are on this program due to hard work and dedication of a hand-full of fine aviators, who overcame a lot of obstacles placed by the Corps and the Army, some of which have not been overcome nor will they be any time soon. As long as the men who fly Apache have to adhere to the career profile that the Army insists on there will be waste.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

AHQHI656 is correct about many things that he writes on here and is a top bloke, but he stops short of the full reality of the situation, for the right reasons 'world of **it springs to mind'. :ok:

QHI656 and the rest of the AH pilots are undoubtedly proud and clearly revel in the achievement of qualifying on AH, and so they should. Their pride along with the knowledge of what the aircraft is capable of clearly frustrates them when they continue to suffer from poor serviceability and have few realistic training opportunities to look forward to, at least one's without shouting Bang, Bang, Bang, anyways...Joke!

The apparent lack of willingness to providing funding for the AH is frankly worrying, the RAF don't suffer to this degree I'm certain. Don't budget training; if X capability costs Y it stands to reason that if you provide Y- funds then you will only achieve X- capability or don't civil servants do maths anymore, or is it that they have been promised X+?

The AH has an awesome reputation to maintain and it won't be cheap.

No longer can the phrase "its just another helicopter" be used and for that reason a new bread of fighting leaders must push attack aviation into the limelight with substance to back it up (walk the walk, not Squawk, Squawk), the 'spirit of attack' which they all spout off about. Lets see some.

Can't imagine the consequences of not training regularly when faced with a two way range, only one outcome guaranteed me thinks!

PP.

(Tom, we flew the Twin Engine Torque monster together many times)

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Ah.. the name PeoplesPoet....brings back happy memories of days at Wallop when out of the ether, a new peoplespoet message on the computer brought joy to the downtrodden QHI masses.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Crabo, done anything mad with a lynx lately?


Those were the days me old mate how are SAR things going?


PP

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Back to basics though...When your getting on a bit..and flying Apache...as a QHI...with pension in back pocket...and along comes Mr ATIL...whom offers you a monday to friday...without deployment....in Hampshire....in civvies...but still flying AH..on equal or maybe even better money...Who in their right mind would say NO?

Muttley Out

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Limited job security though.

The ATIL contract is only for 30 years.....

Hang on, where do I sign?

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Mutleyfour

Not quite right in your post there

Mr ATIL does not come along to you and offer you anything. You have to crawl to him with a date that is believable and agreed by your employers. Then and only then will he talk to you. The gate into ATIL is only one person wide they wouldn't want the masses bending the metal!

LB

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

I am led to believe that ATIL also offer a reasonable pension, private health care, annual bonus schemes, guaranteed leave (30+ days) and a great quality of life, Oh and not to mention a 30 year contract.

Well if so, now that PAS has been fixed by the masters of all ideas that are brilliant I'm sure retention of AH pilots will be no problem at all...


PP

OK-I am bored now!
 

Guys,

This was an interesting thread - now very dull indeed. So you have some of your older AH pilots leaving and/or going to civilian MoD contracts. If you have a look around all three Services (Shawbury, Bovington and Portsmouth) you will find experienced men/women as civilians on a PFI contract, passing on their years of military experience.

Good - I am glad it is retained indirectly by the military as it would be a real pity to lose these guys to true civilian life in the airlines/civil rotary world.

Maybe continue this on ARRSE if you still think it is news/post worthy, but to be honest (and I have always had the upmost respect for you brown jobs, and envy the opportunity to fly Apache) you are just making yourselves look very spoiled by airing your washing on this forum.

Get over it guys - people will come and go, and don't ever think that you are irreplaceable. Maybe when you guys 'eat yourself up' from the inside there may be no other option but to make the capability Joint, and yes that does include recruiting suitable RAF/RN aircrew to fill those sacred Army AH seats.

If you guys don't want it, then I can assure you that there are many that would bite their arms off to give it a try - even if does mean cam cream, boil in the bags and bivvies!

:ok:

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Bored or boring? :E

As a tax payer it might be relevant to ask what is to be done to retain these aircrew costing 1 million a pop. If we turn them round every 4 years that is a hell of a cost.

What is to be done to accelerate to the full manning if we are already backfilling by 4 or 5 bodies to maintain the already understrength first regiment?

Many, many more issues that would raise concern lurk in the undergrowth too.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

English! Crab Beefer - not - crab beefer!!

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

MaroonMan4,
You don't have to visit this thread if you find it so dull! or is it that actually because you don't fly AH you are compelled to visit this thread in the hope that one day you may read something that offers you the slightest glimmer of hope at potentially having a go in the beast.

Try Bob or No if your looking for hope......else keep away!

Oh and by the way this thread is about AH pilots resigning and under that title the underlying reason's why surely is befitting.

PP:}

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Someone with this Profile:
Occupation:
Apache Aircrew wanabe"

Says this:
..or is it that actually because you don't fly AH you are compelled to visit this thread in the hope that one day you may read something that offers you the slightest glimmer of hope at potentially having a go in the beast."

Hello Po(e)t, Kettle calling!

Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

I was interested to see two Apaches cruising around the Spey valley in Scotland this morning while I was at a shoot, but slightly disconcerted to see one start to circle overhead when eight shotguns started firing at the same time. Obviously they were just training but is it possible that such small arms fire would light up something on the panel prompting them to come and have a look, or was it just coincidence? In any event, never having seen one before they were an impressive sight and probably had a good day out in the highlands.

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

Do they have some based at Lossiemouth or Leuchars?

TiP

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

I doubt it

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

PIC,

HIDAS (Helicotper Integrated Defensive Aids Suite) is the only system that could theoretically react to such events, in particular the Missile Warning System (MWS). However the system is programmed to recognise specific UV emissions and as such should not be triggered by shotgun blasts. If they were I think that the MOD would have serious questions to ask about the false alarm rate of the system. However I am certain that this is not the case.

Needless to say if the Apaches had caught wind of the shots and were trying to ascertain the source, I imagine the guys would have got a bit of a shock!!
However, even in peace time I doubt the aircrew would put themselves or the airframe at risk where gunfire is concerned. Most probably just sit in a suitably high hover and use the powerful Targeting systems in the nose of the aircraft to have a look!

Regards,
Sioux4D

P.S The operational Apache squadron is at Dishforth North Yorkshire

Re: Apache in our sights - Scotland
 

Sioux4D

Thanks. We suspected as much, but did amuse ourselves by discussing what might be the best course of action if it did return fire. It was generally agreed that scarpering towards the trees all in different directions probably wouldn't be sufficient evasive action.

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Shy TQ/PP,

Edited and deleted - because I got involved in an unecessary slagging match with Shy TQ, without reading his thread.

Apologies Shy TQ

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Maroon, I was actually defending you. If you had done some research yourself, you would have realised that I am also a civvie tax payer.

P.S. military personnel are also tax payers.

Tsk! :rolleyes:

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Maroon Man 4 I agree, they are not lost.The first 2 going to ATIL are excellent QHIs (who I enjoyed flying with) with loads to offer and we will continue benefit as a Corps.I am sorry that there are so many others thinking of going who will be lost to the system.I know I will not stay the whole time, unless we get allowed to train properly rather than dwindle this great capability.Perhaps ATIL should civilianise the regiments?

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

See here in today's Scotsman......
Click for link

Uncle G :ok:

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

Interesting reading, at least someone is aware of the potential disaster that may occur if the AH remains poorly funded and badly resourced.

I get the feeling that whilst money may well be something that could be offered to tempt pilots to stay for a while longer I doubt that it will keep the majority in unless of course the financial figure is significant; already people are leaving when they could get FRI2 thats 50K for 5 years service..........Mmmmm.......not working is it.......... but why?

Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.

Don't visit an AH pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.

Great aircraft but what an existence....AttackKKKKKKKKK... What..

PP.
its good to talk, start listening!:}

Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
 

God help the poor lambs if they actually have to deploy anywhere. Give me strength. :hmm:

Apache pilots required
 

this maybe of some interest to some out there
found on google
Sat 14 Jan 2006 The Scotsman
Army being scalped of Apache pilots
JAMES KIRKUP
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
THE British Army's £2 billion fleet of Apache attack helicopters could
go short of pilots after a string of resignations. Military insiders
say that many of the small number of army pilots qualified
to fly the aircraft have either quit or plan to leave in coming months.
Some have been lured to the private sector where their skills command
much higher wages than those paid by the army. Others say they are
frustrated by rigid military career structures that force them out of
the cockpit and into an office. Even frontline pilots complain that
they spend too little time actually flying. After a lengthy and complex
procurement process, 67 Apaches were declared
"ready for operations" last year. The Apache is arguably the most
sophisticated combat aircraft in the world, packed with weapons systems
and advanced sensor packages that provide pilots
with a deluge of information about their surroundings. In all, training
an Apache pilot to combat readiness takes six months and costs the MoD
more than £1 million. At least four Apache pilots are believed to have
resigned in recent weeks. Army rumours suggest that several more could
shortly join them, possibly as many as 11 in all. If true, several of
the Apaches, which cost about £30 million each, could effectively be
grounded for lack of a qualified pilot. The Apache fleet already has
suffered teething troubles in the form of mechanical and technical
failures. Such is the complexity of its systems, anything between a
fifth and a half of the helicopters are grounded for maintenance at any
one time. Military insiders say a shortage of qualified engineers
exacerbates the situation. While pilots are hugely enthusiastic about
actually flying the Apache, the mechanical difficulty of getting the
aircraft into the air and the inflexibility of the army career
structure are said to have left many pilots frustrated. One reason the
Apache-qualified pilots are leaving is money. Several private companies
pay generously for army-trained pilots who are then effectively hired
back to the military through Private Finance Initiative training
contracts. "Now why would some of the highest calibre pilots be leaving
the army? The sum of £60,000 a year springs to mind," said one
military insider. The fresh fears for the Apache are being discussed
widely by Army Air Corps members on unofficial service internet forums.
"A lot of these [qualified pilots] have a great deal of experience that
we should not be losing before we have even finished fielding Apache,"
said one poster. Other insiders blame the Army Air Corps' career
profile that obliges pilots to move on from operational flying after a
three-year posting. "As long as the men who fly Apache have to adhere
to the career profile there will be waste," said one pilot. But the
Ministry of Defence said there could be flexibility. "Apache crews may
serve for longer than three years if their careers allow, and may of
course return to flying after experiencing other roles," said a
spokeswoman.

Re: apache pilots required
 

You spend a million pounds training someone, then just when they are starting to get some experience on type, you take them off flying dutys? Dosn't sound real cost effective.

Re: apache pilots required
 

That's always been the way, especially in the RAF. My moles tell me it is almost completely due to the "man management" coming from AG14, if that's what it's still called (they're the guys that do the postings). There have been a couple of juicy sessions where the Apache guys have just got up and walked out of the meetings, due to the patronising attitude. They then proceeded to do their licences and PVR.

Phil

Re: apache pilots required
 

Senior Mil types do seem to have some sort of problem with Proper management of assets and manpower,
Small example, friend of mine is a Col in the Maroon berry brigade, we were having a pint one day talking about the business I was in(transport) I explained that we could accept a load for delivery from the North West of the UK to any part of the EU continent and have it delivered within 24 hours,

Very seriously he told me that would take weeks to achieve, and that would be just the planning, if it was to move any of his regiments assets.

Well if that is the case, these boys at the top of the Mil tree need a swift dose of business in Civvie street!!;)

Vfr

Re: apache pilots required
 

Interesting reading. Looks like a lot of info lifted directly from a thread on the Mil Forum.
A lot of Apache pilots are well into their mil careers and some of these may have been close to retirement age anyway. (Remember that standard retirement age for Non-Commisioned Officers is 40!)
Others have been tempted by the lure of filthy lucre by recycling their skills as civilian instructors on the Apache system, thus their skills may not be lost.
Besides the Apache is a young mans sport, not flying it of course, but fighting it. :)
BTW Paco, AG14 became PB14 that became MCM. Same sh1t different name!

Re: apache pilots required
 

I thought that only one squadron (8 aircraft) had been declared as fully operational, with 9 reg AAC based at Dishforth.

Alot of the problems stem from the huge learning curve that is required to learn the raft of complex Avionics (both aircraft and mission systems) on the platform. As faced with conversion from the intuitive analogue systems of the likes of a gazelle or the single squirrel to a fuly integrated glass cockpit and mission suite, can be some what daunting.

The ground school training that is required to learn the capabilities and operation of the systes on board is extensive. This coupled with the fact that the systems and the aircraft's system processors (the heart of the aircraft) are being constantly updated and developed, makes the job that much harder. Finally add the fact that actual time in aircraft is like gold-dust, you can see that a new Apache pilot's task is enormous.

Don't get me wrong the AAC training is superb, and the Apache pilots (in my humble experience) are constantly proving to be extremely capable and intelligent. The simple fact is that the UK MOD just doesn't have enough money to fulfill the old adage that "Practise makes perfect".

Finally I think that the Army's philosophy that you are an Officer first and a Pilot second (unlike in the RAF and RN were pilots fly for the majority of their career) is proving to be detrimental in the case of the Apache. Seeing as experienced AH pilots are few and far between you would have thought it advisable to keep any fully trained assets current.

Apologies if any of my opinions prove controversial.

Sioux4D