So, what do you think?
 

Stumbled across this old video and thought they were bat!!!! crazy,...!?

https://youtu.be/jH03stFao4k

Ok, I'll bite...

Some greatly executed autos...

What exactly is it you are squeaking and trying to cause a drama about???

The juice just isn't worth the squeeze to train stuff like that. You'll ball up more machines in training than will be saved in real life.

In the early 70s we used to do zero-speed autos in Hueys, but we kept zero all the way down, not diving like in the video.

Aim point is between your toes in the chin bubble, go through the normal flare height, and when your @rse takes a bite out of the seat cushion, you pull the collective. Amazingly effective. To make judging the "pull" height easier, one instructor suggested drilling a hole under the collective and poking a broom handle through. When the machine gets down to broomstick height, it automatically pushes the collective up! Simples! Tccchhkk!

Just did these Monday:

We fly in inhospitable places where often times the only place to go in the event of engine failure is real close, hence we teach what I call "hang time". This is where you bleed off speed in an auto and descend vertically then nose forward to get speed for the flare then touch down. The auto has a very steep profile.

Here are 3 videos in the Huey showing the evolution of autos with a new guy to the Huey.

Start with straight ins:


Then move on to a 180 auto:

You Tube

Then transition to a 180 with zero speed for the turn:

You Tube

Hmm, no quams about practicing zero speed autos in an R22 from 100'? I wish you were my insurance adjuster!

What a difference between UK and USA, over here we always go to the grass not the hard !

That is not a zero speed autorotation in that video.
Get your facts right.
It's an autorotation that is initiated from what seems to be a high hover at 100 feet.

He dives down, gains speed, and carries out a normal autorotation.

A zero speed autorotation is something completely different.

Hueyracer - :ok:

Gordy - the only problem with bringing the speed back so far is that to subsequently achieve a sensible flare speed, you are accelerating towards the ground and increasing your RoD - probably fine in a Huey since you have so much energy in the head but it might not be suitable for a robbie. EOLs are the sport of kings though:ok:

far less chance of screwing the pooch and flipping it on asphalt.

:ok:

..........

Nothing wrong with my facts. That is a zero speed auto.

,...and its not just me who is calling it that, but the super awesome pilot who made the video as well.

The thread starter's video states at the beginning that it is a "partial engine failure" therefore no problem........................

Agreed. Zero airspeed is exactly that.
As others have said...not a good idea to go to grass, especially low timers...there is an article written by Shawn Coyle on this after visiting a "well known" flight school and I showed him many aircraft remains that had come into trouble doing touchdowns to grass.....
Indeedy...have not flown a robbie in over 20 years....these are advanced autos, not for that airframe.
You make me laugh....

I know,...

because a zero speed auto doesn't mean you start from zero speed........a zero speed auto could mean you have zero IAS all the way to touch down (ie vertical) relying on just the collective pull at the bottom or that you reduce speed to zero for the actual touchdown using the normal flare technique - neither of which occur in the video.

However, after many years of EOLs to grass by UK Mil training (and that is many thousands of EOLs) and only one (to my knowledge) problem caused by the surface, I think the grass is a pretty good option - maybe you just have the wrong sort of grass in the US:)

Crab, as a Brit living and traveling between both countries one of the first things I couldn’t get my head around was the grass in the US, you have Bermuda grass, zoysia and fescue. I’m sure some varieties are probably more suitable than others for a helicopter landing! As opposed to what we have in the UK called grass.

And The Cousins call it "Sod" anyway, so it must be bad.

I’ve often thought “Sod it” after one of my landings...

ISTR that in my day RAF rules said that a zero speed auto should be converted to a VF EOL at 300’ agl. I know we used to carry out constant attitude EOLs to the ground at 40kts, which was about the minimum speed that the ASI needle showed any movement, finished off by use of collective only. I think that in many hells, true zero speed to the ground would result in a rather higher ROD with fewer options and more potential for things going wrong. Maybe Teeteringhead can remember?

Damm I forgot that one, USA/ British translation, Sod = Turf, apologies for thread drift!

Same in Oz in my experience, always grass in skid equipped, must chew up the skids on hard, or constantly replacing some sort of wear pads.

Nope, we have carbide skid shoes. The risk of rollover on grass is too high. We are also doing stuck pedals to the ground, where you may have some minor spin on touchdown---not good on grass. Our Hyd Off maneuvers we bring to a hover, and enter from 100' hover to simulate long lining worse case scenario.

Might it be to do with the weight of the aircraft ? I have done over 30 years thousands of EOL's to the grass, biggest ac though has been a 350/355. Also stuck pedals exercises, limited power, have all been sliding across the green grass.
I have always viewed it, that if I was personally jumping off a wall I would always be going for the grass not concrete as it is more forgiving !

Over the 45 years I spent in aviation, every touchdown I ever did (and there was a lot), except for one, was to grass. The one to a concrete taxiway generated a lot of sparks from the skid shoes, and comments from the groundies to avoid that in future.

However, comma, I did scare the snot out of myself once when doing autos to grass in a B206 that had pop-out floats. It dug in and rose up on the nose and raised the heart rate somewhat. Engineering inspection needed after that one, but all OK.

Gordy can I come and work for you? Proper training, that's what I like to see. Nice!

Same for run on landings, always to pavement. Again much less chance of catching a skid if things get a little sideways.

The best you can get, autos to water, the most fun to be had


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a5fafad72f.jpg

It only takes one.
Yes indeedy.....Did many in this one
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....fd2ff8b6f3.jpg

Interesting how Bell Helicopter will only do hard surface:

See Bell Website Here

Flew one of those Gordy with the bags, but never got to do autos with the floats.

They are a blast....just got to watch out for "inverse roll" when doing turns is all, and try not to let the nose tuck in the water. I flew this one all over Southern Louisiana doing USGS surveys after Hurricane Katrina.

Fixed bags are great fun. As Gordy said the “yaw roll” couple can be interesting! I think at night you might be upside down with an engine failure in the cruise before you caught it with the pedals as you will not recover the roll with cyclic in a 206!

Autos to the water are the easiest for sure. Done them in 47, 206 and 205.

Gordy, get back to us with your technique at 9500 lbs! You might find the timing is a little different!

The 205 A1 being a Transport Category aircraft has landing distances “power off” over a 50’ obstacle published in the RFM.

Interesting reading!

I would be hesitant to fly floats at night for that very reason....

This is on our Huey----we are restricted to external load only. Even with full bag of gas, and full fuel extender and 2 pilots, the max weight I can get is around 7,800 lbs.

I do have a 205A++ and yep, full of people in the back, the zero speed "hang time" would remain the same but the acceleration phase would need to be tad higher. Having said that, ROD may be less due to higher pitch angle to maintain RRPM, but only on my second coffee---would need to think about this a little more......

We did autos from 500' hover in the 206 at the Bell Academy, not 100'. It was tricky then. It's really tempting fate to do it from 100'.

Skid gear in grass will work as long as it stays straight. A little too much sideways and the machine is going over in grass, but asphalt lets the instructor feel more comfortable.

Fascinting to hear all these authoratative N American statements about the hazards of autos to grass- leaving nothing to chance, too much risk of a trip-up, too much hazard etc etc...
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension.

In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help.
We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?

That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.

Really..... Ask Bristow Academy about that then, all three of these in the same year doing touchdowns to grass. These are the three that Sean Coyle wrote his article about years ago after I showed him:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....61ca8f36c8.jpg

You can see where the skids were not allowed to spread...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....914a93eb85.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6dad774e29.jpg



There is no proof of ANY damage other than scrape marks, and the carbide shoes I use have yet to be replaced.


THANK YOU for making my argument for me.......:D:D

Do the skids leave witness marks on hard runways so the QHI can berate you on your fish tailing?

Well, frankly I find it laughably disappointing that this forum is more concerned about the surface to which one practices autos than with the altitude from which they are initiated (especially in the little, low-inertia, "flimsy copter" as the 22 is often referred) but hey...

You wanna see how far you can stick your dick into the H/V Diagram?,...fine!,...just don't ask to borrow my 22 with which to do it!

As for doing autos to grass. I always flew around the city so,...

What's grass,...? :E

Some of us call it the "Money curve".....lots of money to be made in there.... And yes, even with an R-22.

I'm sure there is.

,...if you sell replacement landing gear.