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There's a lama ,allouette 316,and a allouette 319 based leeds uk, allouete318 based Kent uk ish, allouette 11 based hull
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Lamas in UK
MD, Thank you VERY much indeed for the info; could make a huge difference to courses in UK :ok:. My (limited) research was confined to the Midlands area looking for remnants from the old Dollar operation.
Pm me with the detail/people I should get in touch with? Many thanks and I owe you some Italian wine :O - VFR |
Some top responses and very interesting reading - thanks guys. :ok:
In early-2010 Eurocopter announced that the Lama and the Alouette III will be supported until the end of the decade.. 2020 that is. The type certificate is said to be revoked that year. In Tanzania Viking Helicopters had a Lama in about 1980 and Evergreen have had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter. There are a couple currently in the Congo and recently there was an Italian registered one in Kenya. Would like to know how much longer they will last. If you buy one now will it only be allowed to fly until 2020? |
vfr440, thanks for additional infos about your training schedule.
Regarding type training and type examination, please check GM.66.A.45 for Group 2 aircraft. That's all. Nobody stops you to complete a full type training but, as regulation alleviates the requirements for non complex machines, that's helping our job. Regulators amongst Europe are, as you say, unfortunately not aligned and it's always fair competition between operators that's made difficult. I've experience with Swiss UFAC, Italian ECAC, UK CAA amongst the others and the difference between them are quite evident. But, on my opinion, regulation is regulation and operators must fight to have it applied commonly. Regarding wine, let's have a taste of Franciacorta Brut then tell me something about. Ciao |
Training (and the occasional glass of wine)
Soloviev -
Now there's a good idea :ok: Absolutely understand and agree the GM and several other points you make. Next time we (all) in EASA gain a 'level playing-field' it will be a first :( This wasn't designed to be a treatise on EASA and NAAs, nor was it marketing either. Just that if faced with an intransigent Regulatory Authority, anywhere in the world, if the buzz words "Part 147 course" eases the passage to Certifying staff authorisation, we are only too pleased to help. And we are MILES cheaper than an OEM, since we have less overheads and we are "of" the industry (both principals are Part 66 LAEs and occasionally practising ones since it is less frustrating :uhoh:) BTW the Lama was an add-on to the current portfolio of all the EC and Bell singles and twins, together with the engines; it is not the lead-machine on our books though personally I wish it was (Lama people are rather special people - and they drink wine too, well most of them do) PM me for details if you are interested. African Eagle - in 2020. This may be an interesting scenario. Assuming that spares can be acquired prior to the cut-off date, without doubt the aircraft can be maintained to an airworthy standard BUT.......... if they no longer have someone underwriting the Type Certificate, I really suspect they would not be allowed to operate CAT. Private, yes, CAT no. What does anyone else think? They are NOT Public transport aircraft anyway (really), so maybe a concession could be given for Aerial Work as a category - at which they excel - but it is a good question, since what is decided by EASA may well have a domino effect throughout the global regulatory authorities. Look forward to any comments fielded, thank you in advance -VFR |
What will happen to Lama owners then? Here are some of the highlights that were presented by Eurocopter at the Alouette seminar on December 2nd, 2010: 60% of the Alouettes and 50% of the Lamas are without customer data inputs since more than 4 years, making it difficult for EC to forecast customer needs. Alouette II: 1326 aircraft produced until 1975 Alouette III: 1437 aircraft produced until 1985 Lama: 447 aircraft produced until 1985 I guess they are not including the license built helicopters? A number of issues leading to the retirement of the fleet, with one of the main reasons being loss of technical knowledge (EC & vendors), high effort to maintain erratic spares production & R&O capacities, obsolescence affecting majority of low rotation items. Another aspect is that the reindustrialization or redesign is getting more &and more complex:
Eurocopter says that the type certificate will be supported until the end of the decade, with the EC support scope reduced step by step. Degradation in the following order: Blades/Equipments, MRO, New Spares and untimately TC revocation. Alouette II will be retired prior to Lama/Alouette III (2018 vs. 2020). Fleet breakdown per end of 2009: Europe: 60 Alouette II, 200 Alouette III, 110 Lama America: < 100 aircraft Africa: < 100 aircraft Asia: < 200 aircraft Fleet leaders 2009: a/c type - s/n - status - last info date - flight hrs end 2009 - region SA 316 - 2351 - In service - 10/31/1988 - 29.100 - Europe SA 315 - 2322 - In service - 12/31/2000 - 26.900 - South Africa SA 316 - 1923 - In service - 03/31/1999 - 26.500 - Europe SA 315 - 0004 - In service - 08/31/2005 - 24.500 - Europe SA 3160 - 1667 - In service - 06/30/1997 - 23.200 - Asia SA 316 - 1762 - In service - 06/1/2002 - 22.000 - Europe SA 315 - 0006 - In service - 11/3/2009 - 21.700 - North America |
Torque and temp, thanks for this info. Sounds a bit sad.
I'm guessing a company could buy the type certificate from EC and maybe contract HAL to provide the support? Is that a possibility do you think? |
Is that a possibility do you think? |
Sounds a bit sad. Evergreen had had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter. Evergreen SA315B Lama N55963 (wearing sand filters) at Portland's Hillsboro Airport Haihio: Grazie, è un bellissimo posto quello dove ti trovi. Saluti da Milano (anche se non sono lì spesso). Bellissimi video! :ok: |
N reg might be an answer for some as the FAA have their own type certificate.
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TC validation
Eric,
Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard? Certainly that was the case in UK, since a Regulatory Authority is hardly in a position to legally direct maintenance and airworthiness activities on an aircraft for which they have no direct input to the actual design engineering? I am thinking here primarily of the product liability aspect so often exercised within USA :sad: Before EASA, for UK, CAA would assess an aircraft and its National TC; then if it met the standard of BCAR (with possibly the addition of the infamous 'Special Conditions') a UK TC would be granted.I think the same principal would apply, now, to FAA given the rationalisation of the spat over reciprococity and the validation of the EASA/FAA bi-lateral. But I may well be wrong, guidance appreciated - VFR |
They are there in larger numners
Guess I'm late in posting in this forum. A couple of more than what has been spoken in this forum about the numbers of LAMA are still flying in Indian subcontinent. I do agree that it may not be so by the end of this decade but at present they do have the numbers.
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VFR 440
I know what you are saying but the Bristol Brittania and DeHavilland Comet both have FAA type certificates as does the Djinn with Sud Aviation stated as the holder. The Americans have their own way of doing things so.......... I was at the Eurocopter operators conference just over two years ago when they announced that they were intending to stop blade production. Did not go down well. One of the operators pilots was in the same hotel as us and took the time to explain where the Lama beats the Squirrel hands down in a number of areas. As early as the mid-eighties the Lama was an embarrassment to Aerospat. We were asked what we would like to see at the factory, unanimous we all wanted to see where they built the Lama's. They refused point blank to show us. We had more chance at getting in to one of the top secret areas. I think I also owe you an email re Lama tech instructors from before christmas. Not forgotten just in the to do list. ericferret |
peeush, are these Lama or Cheetah?
Also, do you know if when EC pull the type certificate for the Lama whether this will affect Cheetah production also? Are they licenced under the same TC? |
Nice video of a Lama in Sweden from our friend Tat in the RATW thread :
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/243...ml#post7663057 . |
al2
hi
I have 3 x al2's 1 x 313b and 2 x 318c's are these any good for your courses they are based in Eastbourne, but often in Alcester so could drop in when needed - do you have hangerage ? ian |
Al 2 in UK!
Ian,
A very kind offer, which I'd be pleased to explore if something should come up in the future, thank you very much. Er..... no, no hangarage immediately adjacent, but I can look into that for 'near by'. Offer much appreciated - VFR |
N reg might be an answer for some as the FAA have their own type certificate. Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard? The Americans have their own way of doing things so.......... |
Heliservices HK
Heliservices in Hong Kong has several SA 315s and possibly a few other varients. Last I was there I believe they had 6 airframes 3 of which were operational.
Heliservices | SA 315B LAMA |
Lama not extinct (yet)
The Indian Army has placed a $77 million order with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) for 20 Cheetal helicopters, a re-engined variant of the AerospatialeSA316B Lama that was built under license in India as the Cheetah. The order is a short-term measure for logistics support to the Indian troops on the Siachen Glacier because of delays to the twice-bid competition for 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters (RSH). The future of that requirementis uncertain. http://www.ainonline.com/sites/defau...al-cheetal.jpg HAL has committed to “supply 20 Cheetals over the next four years besides providing training to its pilots and technical crew,” the company said in a statement. It has already delivered nine Cheetals from the 10-aircraft order the Indian Air Force placed as long ago as 2006, a HALofficial told AIN. The company is building Cheetals at a rate of one every 16 months. The new version is powered by a TurbomecaTM333 2M2engine. “Cheetal is just a lifeline. It is needed urgently because the troops are in a rarified atmosphere and casualties have to be evacuated as fast as possible,” an army official told AIN. But with the production of aluminum rotor blades now ended in France by Eurocopter and the TM333 engine also now out of production, there is concern about the supply chain for the Cheetal. With HAL insisting on paying only the price for these items that was charged when they were in full production, a delay in deliveries is inevitable, an MoD official told AIN. The Cheetal can operate at an altitude of up to almost 23,000 feet and has a range of 346 nm with an endurance of three and a half hours. The TM333 2M2 is fitted with a full authority digital engine control system (Fadec) and an electronic backup control box system that automatically takes over engine control in the event of a Fadec failure, said HAL. The company describes the Cheetal as “a multirole helicopter, best suited for missions such as personnel transport, casualty evacuation, reconnaissance and aerial survey, logistic air support, rescue operations and underslungloads.” I feel really sorry for those Indian troops caught up in that rarified atmosphere! :ooh: |
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