Ah yes, the 'Venerable Beid' (G-BEID), how interesting. Also interesting that this photo happened to be paired with a shot of a US helicopter airline 61! Did you know that before BEID became BEID .. she flew as an 'airline ship' Stateside in the form of N317Y?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-S...+Hudson%29.jpg
San Francisco Helicopter Airlines S61N Mk II N317Y (later to become the 'Venerable BEID' of British Airways renown) at San Francisco International Airport on 25th September 1970 (Photo: Frank Hudson)

et voilà ..

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-z...+Wilson%29.jpg
Bell 206B JetRanger II G-AYMW (as flown by 902Jon) at Gloucester Staverton Airport on 17th March 1988 (Photo: Keith C. Wilson)

And there I was thinking that the Brits were keen on rhubarb and custard!

More Gaz ..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-x...llemsen%29.jpg
SA341H Gazelle of the Slovenian Air Force at Ljubljana on 23rd February 1993 (Photo: Fred Willemsen)

And SL-HAA's final base after turbulent years of service
Park voja?ke zgodovine

Btw, the present exhibit is actually composed of at least two different machines

A very interesting picture of N317Y Sav as it has external sponson floats which I always thought were a North Sea modification. If this picture is pre North Sea (which it must be) I wonder why it had the floats fitted?

Over flying San Francisco Bay my friend.

EI-BJR 1980 Irish Helicopters
 

G-AYMW was operated for a while by Irish Helicopters in 1980 as EI-BJR. Note Irish Helicopters sticker on the door. Registration records list it as being registered to Irish Helicopters while all Denis Ferrantis' machines were registered to Helicopter Maintenance Ltd. Perhaps there was a link as Savoia suggested, I'm sure it will surface in time. https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...50788484_n.jpg

Terminus Mos: It is, as Heli1 has said, due to the fact that SFO's routes criss-crossed the San Francisco bay area and, although their trips were typically only around 10mins in duration, most of that time would be spent over water.

Regarding the sponsons being a North Sea modification .. you may wish to consider the following:

As the Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union developed, the Soviet Navy had elected to construct a fleet of over 200 submarines, the US Navy chose to counter this threat by investing in newer and increasingly capable ASW technologies and platforms, in particular the Sikorsky Sea King. In 1957, Sikorsky was awarded a contract to develop an all-weather amphibious helicopter for the US Navy. The new helicopter would excel at anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and would combine the roles of hunter and killer (previously these had to be performed by two separate helicopters). The key features of the emerging ASW helicopter would include its amphibious hull for landing on the water, and its twin-turboshaft engines that enabled a larger, heavier and well-equipped aircraft than prior helicopters.

The first prototype took flight for the first time in March 1959. Carrier suitability trials were conducted on board the USS Lake Champlain; the trials were completed successfully in mid-1961. Production deliveries of the HSS-2 (later designated SH-3A) to the US Navy began in September 1961, these initial production aircraft were each powered by a pair of General Electric T58 turboshaft engines.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0...g+on+water.jpg
The very first Sea King prototype XHSS-2 demonstrates its capability of landing on water in March 1959

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...er+%287%29.jpg
The amphibious design of the Sea King's lower fuselage, including sponsons, can be clearly seen in this Iranian Navy example

Sikorsky were quick to develop a commercial model of the Sea King resulting in the first flight of the S-61L on 2 November 1961. It was 4 ft 3 in (1.30 m) longer than the HSS-2 and could carry a greater payload. Initial production S-61Ls were powered by two 1350shp (1005 kW) GE CT58-140 turboshafts, the civil version of the T58. The S-61L featured a modified landing gear without the sponsons. Los Angeles Airways was the first civil operator of the S-61 introducing them on 11th March 1962. At that time a new S61 cost USD 650,000.

On 7th August 1962 the S-61N made its first flight. Otherwise identical to the S-61L, this version was optimised for overwater operations by retaining the SH-3's sponsons. Both the S-61L and S-61N were subsequently updated to Mk II standard with improvements including more powerful CT58-110 engines giving better hot and high performance, vibration damping and other refinements.

I had an interesting discussion, oh many years ago now, with a friend of mine from the Ukraine who (literally) swore that the Russian Mi-14 was the first truly amphibious helicopter and that Sikorsky had 'poached' the idea from the Mil factory. Aside from the fact that there are very few Western aircraft which have been inspired from Russian/Soviet designs this claim was simply factually inaccurate!

The Mi-14 (from every reliable source I know) is not credited with having been developed until about the mid-60's while (as you can see from above) the Sea King was quite literally 'in the water' in early 1959. I suspect my freind may have been leaning on the Mi-14's developmental airframe (which was an Mi-8) which, although designed a year before the Sea King flew, did not itself fly until 1961. (Even then .. this was not the amphibious version).

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-E...sea+trials.jpg
The Mi-14 during waterborne trials in the mid-60's

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j...Adamski%29.jpg
The Mi-14's amphibious hull in evidence in the Polish Air Force example

Another amphibious 'hulled' aircraft (in which Sikorsky were involved) was Sud Aviation's Super Frelon.

However, when you mention the 61, sponsons and the North Sea .. yes .. you are correct in that for an appreciable period of time the S61N was synonymous with North Sea operations .. with Bristows, British Airways and British Caledonian all using them .. and others too!

And just in case you think it was only test pilots and the military who engaged in water landings ..

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t...PH-NZA+KLM.JPG
A KLM S61N PH-NZA during water landing and taxiing exercises

Several civilian operators (not just KLM) would regularly carry-out water landings for training purposes.

Shane: Just seen the 'BJR' photo complete with IH logo .. lovely! :ok:

Thanks Sav. I used to fly the S-61N. The floats were not standard fit on the Mk II sponson (per the picture of NZA) but were fitted on the North Sea after Lee Smith's ditching, I believe.

If you look at the picture of N317Y it seems to have the skinny Sea King sponsons with pop out floats, rather than the broad S61NII sponsons. I was always under the impression that the S61NII had broader sponsons to give stability without having to plumb for and have the extra weight of the pop-outs. The Sea King needed minimum width for onboard stowage in the ship's hangar so pop-outs were the solution after the prototypes were shown to have minimal lateral stability.

I amazed to see the film of the KLM S61 not just land on but shut down during the abandon drill: just think of the OH & S cr@pola that would surround such an exercise today :hmm:

Not that the pop outs did much anyway for Sea King/S61 stability, this was SS2 with a long swell:

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1...d+inverted.jpg

Terminus: If you are talking about the pop-outs fitted to the sides of the sponsons .. then I wouldn't have a clue as I simply don't know when these came out. But, I also note (and perhaps this is what you were referring to) that the SFO craft had them fitted back in 1970.

If you have any photos from your 61 days .. t'would be grand to see them! :ok:

Re: John's upturned Sea King .. I was told this possibility is why some Sea Kings/S61's were fitted with a 'zig-zag' of rope around the hull .. so that you could heave yourself upon the craft's keel (if the raft didn't function) while awaiting rescue!

John, I think you are right. Post the BBHN ditching, then the floats appeared on the Mk II "larger" sponson. You may have just cleared up the mystery!

As a matter of possible interest our S62A in Doha had pop out floats built into the floats. Only one S62 ditched in my time, 1974, about 200 yards after take off. Happily floated a few miles out to sea as being a Friday all the rescue boats, all one of them, were at the sailing club!:ok:

We've seen a few 'Bells along the Thames' including Helipixman's photo of Tommy Sopwith's Bell 206 (G-BASE) seen along the Embankment in 1973 as well as some 'Rayner Rangers' (see page 96) and now this visitor from the Far East:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h...+Pole%2529.jpg
Maritime Safety Agency of Japan Bell 212 JA9684 aboard the Patrol Vessel Yashima moored in the Pool of London along the River Thames next to HMS Belfast on 8th October 1989 (Photo: Martin Pole)

In April 2000 the Maritime Safety Agency of Japan was renamed the Japan Coast Guard.

~ ~ ~

With thanks to photographer Martin Pole, this being his first contribution to the thread.

Per Elipix: Elipix, if you are reading .. please note that your image of G-BASE on page 34 is currently down.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b.../RG+Logo+s.png

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b...rekov%2529.jpg
SA341G Gazelle RA-1233G as seen in St.Petersburg on 6th April 2013 (Photo: Igor Dvurekov)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a.../HH+Logo+s.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q...field%2529.jpg
Royal Navy Hiller UH-12E HT2 XS165 as seen at RNAS Yeovilton on 6th September 1969 (Photo: RA Scholefield)

This craft was a member of 705 Training Squadron based at RNAS Culdrose.

Another great 'Historic Hiller' shot .. of 165's sister-ship .. 163 .. on page 58.

Both XS163 and XS165 were not in my logbook with 705NAS in early 1969, but my first (helicopter) solo was flying 42/XS166 in March of that year.

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/3...amp_+Chris.jpg

Not me next to the trusty steed, but another contributor to Rotorheads :ok:

On the same sunny Cornish dispersal in April 1969 was this Whirlwind HAS7, no idea of the number:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/...62%20small.jpg

I had the pleasure of working on XS166 after it's demob in the mid 90's. It was re-registered as G-BDOI and flew for Management Farm Services at Cambridge. Last heard of as HA-MIJ.

XS163 was written off in 1969 and XS165 became G-BEFX then SX-HEC and was writen off in 1991.

John/Eric: Great stuff! :ok:

John: To what role then were 163 and 165 assigned in 1969, do you happen to know?

You will have to provide us with some clues (perhaps a story of his misdeeds) as to whom it is that poses with 166! :p

Also, did Army and Naval flyers ever compare notes in those days (obviously they must have) .. I would be interested to know what opinions (if any) existed between Army drivers learning on the Sioux and those in the Navy learning on the Hiller .. or was it 'much of muchness'?

The Whirlwind 7 above is surely XK936, if you squint closely at the picture.Now on display at Duxford.

WW7 Memories
 

I can remember being winched out of the sea on completion of my WDD by Boss Spelling (CO of Brawdy SAR) off St Davids in Pembrokeshire. Such was the marginal performance of the WW7 that even though I was then a mere 14 stone (happy days) reeling me in actually wound the aircraft down into the sea so with my nerves frayed and the front wheels submerged I was unceremoniously dragged from the oggin.

G. :)

Sav,
Very simple... The sioux landed after an engine failure, the 12E arrived in one form or another..

That's a very good squint that you have: checking with a better scan of the original confirms it is XK936 :ok:

I'm unable to upload to my gallery to show the better scan plus one of it at Duxford, but it isn't always a Good Thing to see an aircraft you flew being displayed in a museum!

Savoia, we only referred to airframe numbers in our logbooks: the squadron side number was our reference (and call sign) and could be changed from airframe to airframe as and when a rotation occurred into or from deep maintenance.

As for talking to pongoes during training: perish the thought :p

Heli1: X-Ray vision indeed!

Grazie Griffo! Does this mean the Navy flyers had to work just that little but harder for their pay? ;)

John, thanks for the clarification.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-W...a+Rescue+2.png

Still .. better (one supposes) than being dragged behind a US Mail plane!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-X...en+-+stunt.jpg
American antics from times past .. involved this chap being towed by holding onto a rope!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5...G+Logo+2+s.png

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Z...lav+Police.jpg
SA341G Gazelle F-GKIB at Lognes Emerainville Airport, France, on 17th June 1991 (Photo: Don Hewins)

Former Yugoslav Police aircraft .. YU-HBA.

All right...time to own up.I didn't read the serial.I worked it out from the code(62) ,the date and my Whirlwind 7 movement records of the time !
Still I wish my eyesight was that good.

Just an ask, would any of the old timers and I mean real old timers please look at my thread Ronald Harvey Osborn on Rotorheads.

Many thanks.

George Harrison
 

For Savoia,

If you are collecting details of Beatle rotary flights ... in 1981/82 I think (will give a date from log book if wanted) ... I flew dear Barry Sheene on a Sunday from Silverstone, where he'd been racing a DAF truck, to his home at Charlwood Manor by Gatwick's 08 threshold. On route, we landed at George Harrison's mansion at Friary park, Henley. Barry persuaded George to try a flight with me in the Enstrom 280C Shark. G-BGMX for the reggie buffs.

I gave Mr Harrison the full sales demonstration, but on landing when Barry said to George ... "You should buy one of those - they're only fifty grand," the reply came back ... "what would I do with it!"

George Harrison's son Dhani was there as a three-year old scooting about the gravel drive on a kid's motor bike. Much later, I met the six-foot Dhani around 2006 ish when I gave a display at Goodwood House for Barry Sheen's commemorative dinner. His wife Stefanie also came over from Oz.

One associated oddity. GH took me up to his £3million recording studio in his mansion where the walls were awash with the group's 'gold' records. George actually played a sample of one track from his latest planned release. The album was entitled ... 'Somewhere in England' but I never saw that LP actually appear. George was so concerned to find a place on the cover pic, where the bar code would go. I suggested he put it on the drum.

I do recall one track had a Beatle version of an old tune he'd picked up from somewhere ... "Here's the story of a very unfortunate coloured man, who got arrested down in old Hong Kong. He got plenty of (something) taken away from him, when he kicked or kissed (not sure) poor Judy's throng. Or similar. I think Hoagy Carmichael sang the original piece.

Also GH's kitchen walls had the signature of just about every pop star, celebrity, sportsman etc you've ever heard of. He told us ... "We can never re-decorate!" George was indeed a lovely man and was Barry of course.
Dennis K.

Brantly v Hiller v Hughes v Bell
 

Re: Sav’s picture of Brantly B2 G-ASHJ (http://www.pprune.org/6822427-post1099.html)

This aircraft appears to have been imported to take part in the evaluation to find a light recce helo for the British Army in the early 1960s, which ended up in the Sioux purchase.

According to a book by Vic Flintham, the Brantly B2A & B was pitched against the Hiller UH-12E (a/c believed borrowed from the Fleet Air Arm), the Hughes 269A, and the Bell 47G-3B-1.

The competition trials were conducted in 1962 and 1963 by the A&AEE, in the UK and Libya. Hot & high conditions where the 47G might have performed well versus the others?

The Hughes were sponsored by Westland (in addition to the 47G), the Brantlys sponsored by BEAS,and the Hillers by Shorts.

From this Flight article (1964 | 0793 | Flight Archive), it looks like it was narrowed down to the 47G (cost then £18k, £317k now!) versus the 12E (£22k then, £388k now).

Westland won with the 47G, price being a decider, and also the fact that they had more helicopter manufacturing experience than Shorts.

Here are the a/c involved (from the UKSerials website):

S/n - UK mil serial - Type - Details

42-0066 XS349 Hughes 269 A Ex G-ASBL, ex G-17-1, d/d 13/07/1962, to XS684 21/06/1963

42-0066 XS684 Hughes 269 A Ex G-ASBL, ex G-17-1, XS349, to G-ASBL, w/o 27/10/1964 at Fairlop

52-0081 XS685 Hughes 269 A Ex G-ASBD, ex G-17-2, to G-ASBD, w/o 01/08/1981 at South Driffield

315 XS681 Brantly B2 A Ex G-ASHK, d/d 26/06/1963, to G-ASHK, w/o 18/12/1969 Newport Pagnall

303 XS682 Brantly B2 A Aircraft not required for evaluation, serial n.t.u.

319 XS683 Brantly B2 B Ex G-ASHJ, d/d 18/07/1963, to G-ASHJ, canx. 26/09/1984

One Hughes had 2 different military serials, for some reason.

I couldn’t find which Bell 47G(s) were used in the competition.

The eventual order was for 281 Sioux. The first 50 were off the Agusta line - seemingly for speed, as Agusta was already building the 47G, and the lower labour rates in Italy seem to have been a factor, according "Flight".

Also IIRC Westland had a restriction in their agreement with Sikorsky, meaning they couldn’t licence-build aircraft from any of Sikorsky's US competitors - but licence-building a Italian licence-built version of one of their competitor's a/c was OK!

Then another 183 off the Westland line, all being Sioux AH1s for the Army & Marines, apart from 15 x HT2s for the RAF. Westland also built 16 x 47G-4As for Bristow to train AAC crews at Middle Wallop.

Now that uploading seems to be working, a better scan of the Whirlwind HAS7:

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5...nd+705+NAS.jpg

And if you haven't Heli1's squinting ability, an even larger image here :ok:

So what's the serial of the Hiller in the background then??!

Well done Watson, that is most interesting! :ok:

Heli1: Even in John's 'super-duper' size image I can't make out the number on the Hiller .. except (perhaps) the orange nose numbers which (I think) are either 46 or 47!

More Hiller ..

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I...9+-+ZK-HCQ.jpg
Bristow Hiller UH12E G-ATDW as seen at Southampton's Eastleigh Airport in 1967 (Photo: Barry Friend)

Seen here wearing 'Plessey' titles. That seems to have been a long-running contract for Bristows despite the fact that it was held on and off by a small number of additional operators. I believe it was 1975-6 when Ferranti had the contract which had been taken over from Mann's after the incident involving the ill-fated G-AXAY in 1974.

A year on from the above photo this craft was sold to New Zealand where she flew as ZK-HCQ.

Heli-Union: Welcome aboard, a great photo! :ok:

The records show G-AWLC as being owned by Heli-Union (UK) Ltd. between 1968 and 1972 but it would be interesting to know where that photo was taken? Please feel free to post any additional Heli-Union images!

Denissimo: Great stuff re: George Harrison - another chapter for your next book!

Some more from the 60's ..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B...Aug+1969+b.jpg
Roger Daltry of 'The Who' dismounts Jock Cameron's BEA Agusta-Bell 206A G-AWGU at the Isle of Wight Festival, Wootton Bridge on 30th August 1969

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d...Wight+1969.jpg
Ringo Starr, also on the Isle of Wight, doubtless at the same festival .. perhaps even arriving in Heli-Union's G-AWLC?

Savoia...the Hiller is probably XS166 /42,the one John Eacott was standing by on the same day?! No squinting just cheating!

Alouette II G-AWLC | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8301/7...f41e9bae_c.jpg

The photographer has a couple of nice Brantly shots on his page as well. ATFH and ASXE

Another photo of AWLC here with the heliunion logo reduced in size and the B.E.A.S logo beneath it. Was there a tie up between the two?
Says taken at Staverton but the date is clearly wrong.

I do not have the place for that photo but is in UK.

What I have is some more photographie some is Heli-Union some is not but not everything has the details of time and place. The photos I have come from the Heli-Union unofficial website and some others.

George Harrison
 

Re the Hoagy Carmichael song mentioned previously it's called Hong Kong Blues and was released on the Somewhere in England album.

You can hear it here http://

Re Dennis' dit about George and about Barry.

I still regret not asking George to leave his mark on the interior of the 206L when I flew him, but even more do I regret my kid sister currently not knowing where she put the page with autographs of all four of the Beatles when our Dad was looking after them when they played at Walthamstow :{

Bazza was a great mate, and I still have his emails and the photos he sent to me when he bought his A109. It took months to demolish the 'box it came in' which was left outside our hangar, we were seriously thinking of renting it out to a family or three or selling it as firewood for five seasons! We have a Barry Sheene ride to the Phillip Island MotoGP every year, just because we can and to remember the silly sod :ok:

Happy days.

Royal Navy Hiller XS 165
 

Savoia

XS 165 (551) was certainly on the books of 705 Squadron on 6th September 1969. I flew her from Culdrose to Yeovilton via Roborough on 5th September. On the 6th September I acted as the hapless instructor for Colin Bates's Little Old Lady Routine in 548.This must have been for Yeovilton Air Day, an event engraved on the memory of all those that took part for the hilarious pre-display briefing and 845 Squadrons near disastrous piano drop. 551 must have been the static display since I flew her back to Culdrose on September 8th.

Oh Happy Days

ICO

Eric: Nice shot! :ok:

Heli-Union: Please feel free to post whatever you have.

ICO: Thank you for the Hiller confirmation along with your reminiscences aloft, I am sure they were great days! I would like to hear more about 'Master Bates' Little Old Lady Routine and the pre-display briefing!

Those early days of rotary-wing aviation seem so far removed from our 21st century and yet, as a youngster my godfather would talk of such times as thought they were only yesterday! His years in the AAC (although it wasn't called that when he joined) as well as his time with Bristol and later as a test pilot at A&AEE Boscombe Down, seemed to be so constantly filled with aeronautical antics and general tomfoolery that I imagined he never had a single serious day in his life!

Colin was a 'friendly face' at Brooklands for many years - such a thoroughly pleasant person. Sadly missed.

John: Sorry to learn of your sister misplacing the autographs of all the Beatles .. hmm .. Beatles and Whirlwinds with red noses (your HAS7) .. makes me think ..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l...3/G-ANFH+d.jpg
Four young lads run around a Whirlwind!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F...8/G-ANFH+a.jpg
Oops .. lets try it from this side

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...6/G-ANFH+c.jpg
C'mon lads, around we go

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N...8/G-ANFH+b.jpg
Did you really say you saw a Navy flyer in his briefs around the back here?

And the craft in question ..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u...Brien%2529.jpg
British European Airways Westland Whirlwind Series 1 G-ANFH c.1960's

I don't have a location for the above photo but .. someone might recognise the Piper hanger.