External Load / Longline Training (Merged Threads)
 

Are there any schools in the UK or Europe that do External Load lifting / long-line training courses on the R22/R44/Hu269?
Really want to get in the load lifting side of the industry, can't afford a trip to Canada or the US.
Thanks in advance
FB



Also >>> Slingloading & Longlining Discussions


Heliport

You could try Helicopter Services at Wycombe - 01494 513166. I know they have a 200 foot line there

Phil

External Load Training
 

Flashing Blade

Try European Helicopter Centre (R22/44) @ sandefjord Airport (Torp)http://www.ehc.no and also Pegasus Flight Training (H269)http://www.fto.no Organisation based in Skien, Norway. Both these schools offer the training because the type of companies the schools feed are external load companies. i.e they do a lot of sling work.

I would have thought it would be cheaper to take a trip to Canada though. Flight training is way cheaper. Example 1 hour in an AS-350 costs roughly 1000CAN$ .In Norway it costs 8700 NOK. Now to those not fluent in monetary exchange it is like saying £350 versus £780. Now that makes a big difference. So therefore the R22/44, H269 would be a damn sight cheaper. But Canada still wins in the pricings in my opinion.

(I may be out on the Canadian charge here, but i know some schools are doing the 206 @ 900 CAN$ and even if you went up to 1500 CAN$ for your hour, it is still way cheaper than Europe.)

I guess it depends upon the machine and how much training you want to do. If you go to Norway, EHC and Pegasus are the only two CAA registered Flight Schools for training (As far as i know) and if i was to go to Canada, then i would either go to Great Slave Helicopters (H269), up near Edmonton or HTSC(R22) down at Carp Airport just outside Ottawa. It all comes down to the quality of training you are looking for? :rolleyes:

Good luck in your search.

Regards

MD :ok:

I think the Great Slave guys have moved or closed down - at least the training school has. If you're going the Canadian route, then Bighorn Helis at Springbank (near Calgary) will do you - Paul Bergeron is in charge there.

www.canada411.ca is the Canadian telephone directory on line.

Phil

Thanks for the quick replies.

I was looking at Canada too. I was thinking about europe as I have seen plenty of articles/pictures of heli operators in Italy/ France/ Switzerland/ Austria who do external load lifting and wondering where they do they training. Ex-mil?

Another benefit I haven't thought of: I'll get to stock up on Maple syrup.

FB

Training
 

Paco

You are right, they have moved. Thay used to be up at Villneuve Airport in Edmonton, but seemed to have moved their flight school to Calgary.

FB

http://www.greatslaveheli.com/ is where you will find them. A very reputable school, with a great operational side to them.

Good luck

MD :ok:

Flashing Blade: check your pm

Underslung Load Training
 

Any ideas who, or where you can get underlsung load training. Preferably in the UK but not essential.

Personal experience of training prefered!

Thanks.

Try Leon Smith at helicopter services in Wycombe - if he is too busy I know he can point you to a couple of people. 01494 513166.
Phil

PDG Helicopters in Inverness may be able to help.
Without doubt, in UK, nobody does underslung load work on such a scale and with consummate expertise. The nearest thing to "Bush Flying" in Europe!
They will not be cheap but they will be the best you can get in UK and beyond.
Best of luck - it is great skill to master. Often misunderstood and disdained. Those who can do it well have my utmost admiration - and PDG do it very well indeed!!
UG:ok:

Training threads merged.

Linked topic >>> Slingloading & Longlining Discussions

Excuse my ignorance but what weight of payload can be underslung from a R22? (typically with two up)

@ Mini approx -127kg for the R22 :E

Always happy landings
Spencer17

You could contact Steve W. at European Helicopter Academy in Weston (nr Dublin)

They're putting a program together for Sling,Longline and mountain flying.

With the intention creating a utility pilot package. Offering it on 300 or 206

You could also try Provincial Helicopters in Manitoba. They have a reasonable experienced staff, and do lots of vertical reference. Train on 206B3's with bubble doors and 100' long lines...

Longline Training
 

Hi Guys,
There have been quite a few recommendations on this thread for longline training outside the USA but does anybody have any suggestions for inside the USA? Obviously a good reputation and active part 133 would be nice, but I don't know much at all about this sector.

On a separate note, is everyone getting rest over the holidays or is it life as normal?


Thanks
Bobby

I think this topic is highly over rated! Any pilot who can “hover” can longline or at least he can learn it! Period!
Here are just a few basic things to consider while flying an external load using the “vertical reference” method.

1. Check all your gear, the hook system and your helicopter on the ground!
2. Check your hook system again!!! Check the “manual” and electrical release before every flight!!!
3. Always hook up your longline yourself! Never let anybody else do it for you unless it’s absolutely necessary. By doing this you won’t forget that the line is attached.
4. Check the load and the way it’s rigged before you take off.
5. It’s nice to have a weighing system and an outside torque gauge installed if you fly lots of external loads.
6. Customers have the tendency to always put more weight on the hook than you want and you can easily over-torque the aircraft while looking down instead of on the torque gauge in the critical moment.
7. Don’t drive over or land on your longline…ever!!!
8. Know how fast you can fly with a load and even more important…with an empty hook. The line could come very close to your tail rotor!
9. Know the rules and regulations concerning external load operations.
10. Never over-fly any people or property on the ground…ever!

As far as learning to longline goes:

1. Try a high hover without line attached first. Try to “vertical” up and down over a spot without drifting while looking straight down.

2. Now attach a line! Don’t look at the line but try to remain stationary over a spot. The line will hang there just perfectly in plumb.

3. Don’t try it for more than 30 minutes at first. You will be mentally exhausted very quickly.

4. As soon as you start looking straight down you will most likely start drifting. Now the fun starts because the line will start swinging. The secret is: Don’t focus on the load! Pick a spot about 45° to your side and have the load in your peripheral vision. Once in a while you can take a peek at the load…but only a brief look!

5. If the load is swinging…move the helicopter over the load. You have to be ahead of the game. Sometimes a small pedal input is enough and sometimes you have to move the helicopter with the cyclic. The less you move the cyclic the better. Just take a string with a weight attached and play around…it’s exactly the same principle.

6. If you feel your muscles becoming tense talk to them! Tell them to relax! If you have the “death grip” you are not using the small muscles in your hands for the fine tuning anymore. You are moving the cyclic with your whole arm out of the shoulder now. Big muscles = big cyclic movements = swinging load.

7. The most difficult part is the approach. Be it with a load or just with an empty hook. Usually you’ll end up just “shy” of the target. Now you have to move the load and it will usually start swinging again. For the approach…pick a spot that a bit past the target to avoid coming too short. Also…don’t look down onto the load during the approach. Just glance at it now and then. You will find that the line is following perfectly in plumb. Fly the helicopter over the target and only at the last moment look at the load and the target to compare rate of closure and height of the hook.

8. Remember: A descending load never swings! Means if you come in a bit higher with the load and you are in a slow steady descent towards your target, the load will not start swinging so easily.

9. For judging the height of your load look at the shadow of the load and your surroundings. Trees and small bushes are a good help. Long lining over a flat featureless surface like snow or water is very difficult and should be avoided if possible. If you have to do it…try to find some reference. If you are over water…always use the shoreline as a reference. Many pilots have lost control of the helicopter while long lining in the middle of a large water body.
10. Most important…have patience while long lining. Wise old longline pilots say: “Slow is fast”! You will get faster by doing it anyway.

Have fun!!! :ok:

Thanks Hammer Head, that's some great advice, but the vibes I'm getting from a potential employer is that I need some sort of formal training before I'm let loose. Any suggestions?

really, as far as formal training goes, all he wants is someone (you) to absorb some of the cost as far as you learning. if he was fair he'd give you some training and then put you on a job that is suitable to your abilities and inform the client that you are new to longlining and come to an agreement on cost. for the amount of experience and proficiency gained in a few hours of training (which he doesn't want to pay for) it will not make that much difference to the client because you will likely not be able to do any precision longlining anyway.
there is some good advice offered in previous posts, however, as H70 says, "anyone who can hover can longline" is a gross over simplification. if i may say so and this is coming from someone who has >3K hrs of precision seismic longlining from alaska to mexico. not to toot my own horn of course :hmm:

Don't know how it is done in the UK or Europe or whether or not there is an actual "certification" for L/L. In Canada it is all done in-house though. And on that note always remember that just cause you can fly a line doesn't mean you have to do the job just because you're company got the job. ALWAYS know you're limitations. If your company says you have to do the job then they should pay the DOC of the helicopter required for you to go out and "play" so to speak for a couple hours. Hell I have hundreds of hours L/L from the production side but if someone wants me to "place" a load I take a good hard look first. If it turns into a game of inches, with fingers in the "bite", depending on the machine I may just turn it down. And I don't feel bad doing it either. And it has never threatened my employment either.

BWB

I'm not sure 'anyone who can hover can long line' is accepted by most of the industry.
I've just finished working on an immigration case about long lining - at least 'production' long lining involving repeated lifts of things like drill rigs or loads from ships where speed is paramount.
The consensus of opinion seems to be that between 3 to 5% of pilots can make good long-line production pilots. The main problem seems to be getting someone trained in the first place.
Another fascinating piece of the rotary wing aviation world!

Yes, my statement is a gross over simplification! But…we are not talking “from zero to hero” here…are we? Maybe I’m missing the point! I’m not saying that you become a longline production pilot immediately after attending an external load course or something similar. What I am saying is that everybody who has the basic skills to hover a helicopter can - after putting some effort into it - fly external loads. How good, precise and productive you’ll be certainly depends on how much effort you put into it and how talented you are. There are some exceptionally talented longline pilots, a whole lot of average guys and certainly a few guys who should better be doing something else but long-lining out there.
And I completely agree with you Fun Police, if a company scores a job and wants a non-longline pilot to do it, the company should work out a deal with the customer or train that pilot within the company. THAT of course reduces the companies profit and we all know what that means!
Indeed…”Another fascinating piece of the rotary wing aviation world!”

Shawn:
“3 to 5% of pilots can make good long-line production pilots.” I’m curious how that number came up? I really don’t want to offend anybody here, I’m just curious!!!

And…I still believe that you can achieve almost anything you want in this industry! You can start out on an R22 and become a Captain on a S76 - screaming down an ILS approach or fly a Skycrane - pulling logs off the hill or anything else you can imagine.
It’s just a function of how much hard work and training you put into it. That, combined with a little bit being at the right place at the right time makes a lot possible.

The Sky is the Limit. The only limits you will have are the ones that you place on yourself!

Back to the original post now! Where and how does “The Flashing Blade“ get his longline training? Where and how did all those “old” experienced pilots like “FunPolice” gain their longline skills? We all started somewhere and nobody entered the industry with thousands of hours production longline experience. All of us had to work long and hard to get there!
I was lucky that the company I worked for at the time just told me to go out and practice a bit before they sent me on my first “non-production” job!

as long as we are all agreeing here, i too would like to know where the 3-5% figure was derived. it seems a little low to me.

H70, i meant no disrespect with my comments to your post and i am certainly no longline god, but i have done enough and seen some guys/gals who were better than me and have also seen some who just couldn't grasp it.

as far as the original post goes, i stand by the idea that if the flashing blade has been honest with a potential employer (and i have no reason to doubt that he has) about his experience level and abilities at specialized tasks then if he is hired by said employer, then the company should invest in training him to a level of competency that is appropriate for what is expected of their operation. for him to go out and purchase time in a/c in order to gain experience in such a specialized field would be a waste of money.
thanks for listening
FP

The 3 to 5% figure came from discussions with long line pilots and from senior managers who used long line pilots. I was quite surprised at how low the number was.

I know a lot of pilots which became never as good as requested in the long line business.
It's not only the finger trouble, it's the business at once. May be the fear in the dead mans area, no understanding of the other (ground) parts in long lining, sometimes with 10 minutes fuel, bad mental coordination, the massive financial pressure, or the direct customer contact?
In fact after some decades in the job i believe it's easier to become a good IR pilot than with real longlines (>120ft)

On the other side i know some real artists with the line. Impressive to see some calm guys especially if they have a good smoke between the tooths under the biggest pressure steering a long line. ;) :ok:

Some of our brethren at a different forum have been talking about the same thing.

Los Angeles Helicopters was mentioned as having a 141/133 training course for longline. Don't know much else, but maybe worth a look.

longline training
 

hi guys!
is sombody out there to give me a hind how can i get some study materials of VR and long line training ??
basic or advanced any help would be great
thanks all you guys!!!!

Seeing as you are US based give LA Helicopters at Longbeach Airport a call. Otherwise there are a couple of outfits in NZ that do the training.

hey there. Check out SRT Helicopters. They specialize in every sort of training. They are based in Bakersfield, California!

Go north young man...
 

I received fantastic longline training from Chinook Helicopters in Abbotsford BC Canada. My instructor flew the SK64 Air Crane and did the instructing on his time off. Nothing like learning from a high time pilot that is VERY current!:ok:

LA Helicopters at Long Beach California do an FAA/Industry approved Long Line /VR course taught by a very high time long line pilot who apart from being LAH's chief pilot also works for Columbia Helicopters as a long line pilot.
You can find out more about the course on YouTube, search los angeles helicopters long line.

Chester:ok:

Vertical Reference Flying
 

Have you thought about the instructor coming to you? I have taught many young folks the fine art of vertical reference flying. I have taught this skill in various parts of the world and could be available to assist you in your quest. I have a full training syllabus and program.

longline ( and VR ) training
 

I know NotHomeMuch has already mentioned LA Helicopters ( Los Angeles Helicopters ) but this may give you more background as not only do they provide long line training ( http://www.lahelicopters.com/press/f...te-part133.htm ) they also have support of some of the worlds heavy lift companies and show a letter from Columbia saying they will look to LAH for candidates. ( Columbia Helicopters commends Los Angeles Helicopters )

I attended their course last year and thought you may want to see what a less than 300 hour pilot can achieve from a good, no from a great course by LAH... , sorry for the self indulgence... it's me in the video.





For those that want to see more, check out this one;




Hope that helped

longline training?
 

Hey. 2 questions. I understand that longlining is a dangerous and requires a lot of skill.

1. Can you train yourself legally in the United States?

2. I would be interested in someone that has long lined the R44.

Based upon your understanding--WHY would you want to train yourself? Yes you can, but think back to when you learned to hover...that is what it is like at first---I would not recommend it.

Bristow Academy also offers a longline course - I believe in all three locations.

C77,

I don't believe that you could legally train yourself to do longline. Since you have to attach a cable to your helicopter to do so, I believe that you would fall into the area that would require you to have a 133 certificate. Just my .02.

I did my training in a R44. Didn't like it. The T-bar made it difficult to know where the cyclic really was. Remember much of the controls are done by feel backed up by what you are seeing. At least that is the way it worked for me and from what my instructor told me. As you become more familiar and comfortable with it, easier it becomes.

Hey Chopperjocky......I have about 800 hours longlining in the 44

Not so. Read part 133-- Here

The aircraft needs to have a hook attached by means of an STC, but there is nothing preventing you from flying with a line attached, as long as it is not for compensation or hire.

Someone mentioned that Bristow offers long line training---they can legally do it and yet they no longer hold a 133 certificate, and have not since 1998 I believe.

C77,
about 10 years ago, there was a good article by Helicopters Magazine, which has since gone the way of the dodo, but the gist was that if you have an a/c and a willing friend (it would help if he/she knew how to longline) you could basically learn given enough time and pointers. i relate to you what i remember with the caveat that i did not write the acticle and accept no responsibility if you choose to try this.
step one was without a line, do circuits to a certain height, depending on how long a line you want to start with (50' 100' 150' etc), paying attention to flight manual supplements regarding external load ops/restrictions. while in the hover at these heights try to look straight down while maintaining a steady hover. do some pedal turns and height variations, too, to see how things change when you are looking down. the next step would be strap on a line, then get your helper to hold the empty end and walk you around while alternating looking down at 45 degrees and straight down (to get used to looking down while maintaining more reference). aim to keep the LL vertical. after you get comfortable with this, try to do cicuits with an empty line paying attention to applicable flight manual supplements regarding external load ops/restrictions. after this put on a light load (heavy enough to be realistic) while paying attention to the RFM supps etc etc.
once you get to this point it is just a matter of practice.
this is by no means meant to be a replacement for any training or courses that you choose to engage in but it helped me when i started out. also, i know nothing about the 44 but if you are comfortable in the machine, then it is a logical starting point because it is tough to learn how to fly a new machine and learn how to longline at the same time. ask me how i know.
i can say that the astar would not be a very good LL training platform simply because the visibility is the pits.
regards
FP
beforee i forget, make sure your helper wears appropriate protective gear (hardhat, gloves etc) and also make sure you LL is long enough to put you clear of any obstacles once you are advanced enough to start trying to practice in the trees etc.